UK switching to electric vehicles discussion

[Bald Rick]

Throughout this thread, nobody has convinced me that it's viable for the UK to switch to EVs entirely (which isn't specified in the thread title, but it's strongly implied) because we simply don't have the infrastructure or the political will to make it happen.

This is short-sighted.

Of course we don’t have the infrastructure now, just like 15 years ago we didn’t have the infrastrcuture that enables our electricity network to be running, right now, at 49g CO2e per kWh. (On 30/8/2010 it averaged 384g/kWh CO2e, and that was a good day).

It will happen, but will take 15 years or so.

 

[Sun Chariot]

It will happen, but will take 15 years or soso.

I fully agree. A parallel, if I may...
How many remember WAP (Wireless Application Protocol), the "text based mobile Internet" launched in the UK in 2000. Expensive, limited and "that's all we've got". Technology and infrastructure move fast ...

 

[pokemonsuper9]

I fully agree. A parallel, if I may...
How many remember WAP (Wireless Application Protocol), the "text based mobile Internet" launched in the UK in 2000. Expensive, limited and "that's all we've got". Technology and infrastructure move fast ...

Indeed, private capital sees a profit, they will make it real (or go bankrupt trying).

 

[jon0844]

More and more people every year are switching to EVs, or getting one perhaps as a second car. People will buy what suits them, and soon it will only be the oil industry trying ever harder to push anti-EV narratives to an ever decreasing number of people.

ICE cars are still on sale, but people are gradually deciding to take the plunge with a full BEV, or get a hybrid - and even hybrids are being promoted to people who actually could get by with a battery only car even if they do the odd long journey. They are still thinking from a petrol/diesel mindset and it didn't take me long to get used to not having to drive to a petrol station to fill up, or feel like I'm missing it.

I also saw that there's an absolutely ridiculous lease deal for the Ford Puma Gen-E right now. £120 a month for 2 years (but with a £2800 deposit). Combine the deposit and you're looking around £237 a month for what's a pretty decent car. Unfortunately I can't find the link now, but I wasn't intending to promote the car specifically - but just highlight the fact that EVs are getting cheaper all the time.

 

[Harpers Tate]

"Entirely" is an absolute term. I doubt it will be "entirely" any time soon. There will always (?) be classic vehicles (which would come to include those that are new, now); there will always (?) be those who delight in booming or farting exhaust sounds and the roar of a V8 (or a highly stressed tiny inline 4) who will retain that love for burning petrol. They may well find that obtaining that substance gets increasingly difficult and/or expensive as time passes, but I doubt it will disappear "entirely".

However, I do think that we will get to a point of huge majority - say >90% of vehicles - in daily/routine use that are ZEVs. In reality - and despite the specious "reasoning" offered here and elsewhere - there is no good reason why that can't happen. Alongside this, we will get increased autonomy in vehicles and that, in turn, may prove to allow greater density of traffic without compromising safety.

 

[Bald Rick]

However, I do think that we will get to a point of huge majority - say >90% of vehicles - in daily/routine use that are ZEVs.

Agreed, 15-20 years, subject to any changes in legislation.

 

[AM9]

"Entirely" is an absolute term. I doubt it will be "entirely" any time soon. There will always (?) be classic vehicles (which would come to include those that are new, now); there will always (?) be those who delight in booming or farting exhaust sounds and the roar of a V8 (or a highly stressed tiny inline 4) who will retain that love for burning petrol. They may well find that obtaining that substance gets increasingly difficult and/or expensive as time passes, but I doubt it will disappear "entirely".

When we do get to the c. 90% level of ZEVs, those who do insist on driving a mobile noise generator around will probably find that their activities become highly noticeable by those who don't, probably leading to much more enforcement of vehicle noise regulations, - and possibly tightening of the legal maxima to exclude any unnecessary noise in urban and residential areas.

 

[Mawkie]

More and more people every year are switching to EVs

TfL have recently introduced a salary sacrifice scheme for electric cars and the depot car park has almost instantly changed with 8 electric cars, and another 10 on order. Lots of folk were the "electric cars don't have enough range", or "I wouldn't drive one of those milk floats, the infrastructure just isn't there" types.

It's literally amazing to see them do the maths and realise that the savings they make are incredible - with some coming from Bedfordshire, Essex, and beyond. I guess more importantly, the BEV cars are simply nicer to drive. They arrive at work less fatigued, with reduced engine noise and the latest ADAS systems, which is obviously a good thing for a train driver!

Naturally, as more and more people extol the benefits of their BEV, that in turn is causing others in my depot to look into the scheme. I predict there will be more conversions from fossil fuel vehicles as their existing leases run out or owned vehicles become uneconomical to repair.

Interestingly, not a single person so far has mentioned any regrets, or indicated they would ever go back to an ICE car.

 

[Sun Chariot]

Interestingly, not a single person so far has mentioned any regrets, or indicated they would ever go back to an ICE car.

Do all those same people rent / lease their EV? Did any buy the EV outright?
I am yet to be swayed by paying a monthly "rent" for 12,000+ miles a year motoring in a D segment sized EV; and a size of end-lease "balloon" payment I cannot pay.
So I'll fall into a cycle of "always rent, never own" with EVs?

 

[gswindale]

Do all those same people rent / lease their EV? Did any buy the EV outright?
I am yet to be swayed by paying a monthly "rent" for 12,000+ miles a year motoring in a D segment sized EV; and a size of end-lease "balloon" payment I cannot pay.
So I'll fall into a cycle of "always rent, never own" with EVs?

That's no different to having on ICE car though?

We need some more models on the market and then the 2nd hand market will improve.

Just having a quick look at one of my local dealers and there doesn't seem to be a huge difference in price between their hybrid and EV models for sale allowing for differing mileages

The main difference is that the equivalent model to mine, which I purchased 8.5 years ago costs nearly double what I paid.

The salary sacrifice schemes probably suit those who have an unhealthy obsession with changing their car every 3 years, but if you're less bothered about keeping up with the Joneses, then it might not be for you.

 

[Sun Chariot]

That's no different to having on ICE car though?

Every car that I've had since 1991, I bought for cash at initial purchase. Why? Because all the cars were affordable for my budget and because I wanted to "own" them from the outset.
Even my current D segment ICE car, which I bought for cash at 11 months old from dealership.
I don't want to have a vehicle that isn't "mine".

 

[Mawkie]

Do all those same people rent / lease their EV? Did any buy the EV outright?
I am yet to be swayed by paying a monthly "rent" for 12,000+ miles a year motoring in a D segment sized EV; and a size of end-lease "balloon" payment I cannot pay.
So I'll fall into a cycle of "always rent, never own" with EVs?

I do know of one that bought an 18 month old Tesla Model 3 outright. The rest seem to be salary sacrifice. I'm with you on "owning" the car, but that also means it comes with all the responsibility for repairs and maintenance.

Saying that, I think it's generally accepted now that electric cars have a much reduced servicing requirement. Tesla doesn't even really have a formal service requirement. It recommends a cabin filter change every 2 years and brake fluid every 4.

The salary sacrifice cars at work so far seems to cover Omoda 5(?) at £275 to Mercedes EQB at £550+ and everything in between - Hyundai Konas, Peugeots, etc. The scheme also offer used BEVs, but people tell me the new cars are more usually more competitively priced over the used ones.

The salary sacrifice schemes probably suit those who have an unhealthy obsession with changing their car every 3 years, but if you're less bothered about keeping up with the Joneses, then it might not be for you.

I'm not sure that's true, the people I spoke to were happy that they have a known, fixed payment every month (technically every 4 weeks with TfL) that covers insurance, tax, repairs, tyres, and all other maintenance. With nothing else to pay for except electrons, it allows for easy family budgeting.

Of course as you rightly suggested, those that would lease an ICE car are the same people that could lease a BEV next time. Apparently 20 to 30% of people choose to lease cars these days. These ex lease vehicles have already made their way into the used market and will continue to do so.

 

[PeterC]

There does seem to be some reticence from rural communities that EVs are not for them which I don’t understand. If you live rurally you may be half an hour from a petrol station but you’ll have electricity at your house. You’re probably also more likely to have a driveway. How much easier just to be able to plug in at home. With the range of cars now there is no need for anxiety about the scarcity of rural chargers as you will only use your own for the vast majority of daily journeys. Going on longer trips the motorway infrastructure is definitely getting there. EVs are definitely not just for city dwellers.

The core of most villages consists of terraced housing with worse parking than most urban Victorian terraces.

 

[Bald Rick]

I also saw that there's an absolutely ridiculous lease deal for the Ford Puma Gen-E right now. £120 a month for 2 years (but with a £2800 deposit).

I had an email from Britannia leasing, similar deal. £2060 down (including “processing fee”) and £130/month for 2 years.

Every car that I've had since 1991, I bought for cash at initial purchase. Why? Because all the cars were affordable for my budget and because I wanted to "own" them from the outset.
Even my current D segment ICE car, which I bought for cash at 11 months old from dealership.
I don't want to have a vehicle that isn't "mine".

Same here (albeit “cash” is bank transfer).
But buying an EV in budget is quite straightforward for the majority of car buyers who want to pay in full.

 

[Sun Chariot]

Yes it's straying a little OT but as EVs go, I am rather taken by this Hyundai model. A 75 plate on first day of release, too

 

[MicroLithium]

Those second gen Konas are decent, my younger brother has one. Same colour, even. Drove it from Kent to Windermere a few weeks ago, and his has the smaller battery

 

[E27007]

TfL have recently introduced a salary sacrifice scheme for electric cars and the depot car park has almost instantly changed with 8 electric cars, and another 10 on order. Lots of folk were the "electric cars don't have enough range", or "I wouldn't drive one of those milk floats, the infrastructure just isn't there" types.

It's literally amazing to see them do the maths and realise that the savings they make are incredible - with some coming from Bedfordshire, Essex, and beyond. I guess more importantly, the BEV cars are simply nicer to drive. They arrive at work less fatigued, with reduced engine noise and the latest ADAS systems, which is obviously a good thing for a train driver!

Naturally, as more and more people extol the benefits of their BEV, that in turn is causing others in my depot to look into the scheme. I predict there will be more conversions from fossil fuel vehicles as their existing leases run out or owned vehicles become uneconomical to repair.

Interestingly, not a single person so far has mentioned any regrets, or indicated they would ever go back to an ICE car.

I do hope those drivers opting for a salary sacrifice scheme have been advised of the long-term effects upon their pension.

 

[JamesT]

I do hope those drivers opting for a salary sacrifice scheme have been advised of the long-term effects upon their pension.

Are there any? It needs someone with access to the actual documents to be definitive, but as mentioned before salary sacrifice usually involves a notional salary before the sacrifice which things like pensions are calculated on.

 

[Sun Chariot]

I do hope those drivers opting for a salary sacrifice scheme have been advised of the long-term effects upon their pension.

Another "stinger" which has affected more than a dozen people I know, across three companies -
At the point employees have compulsory redundancy - the unbudgeted cost to "buy out" the vehicle's finance agreement - to own and keep the vehicle.
For several of the dozen+ I know, they didn't have disposable cash to do that, as their financial focus following redundancy was, understandably, mortgage, bills and food.
So their vehicles went back, they lost out financially and they had no vehicle to replace it.

 

[dcbwhaley]

I fully agree. A parallel, if I may...
How many remember WAP (Wireless Application Protocol), the "text based mobile Internet" launched in the UK in 2000. Expensive, limited and "that's all we've got". Technology and infrastructure move fast ...

Another parallel is the adoption of the telephone.
Or more apposite the adoption of the ICE motor car when the infrastructure to provide them with fuel didn't exist

 

[J663738]

I remember doing a back on an envelope calculation a few years ago....

Basically I took the amount of Diesel/Petrol that was sold each year and worked out the total energy contained.
Multiplied this figure by about 0.35 to get amount that's used to convert to useful kinetic energy. (but waste heat here is very useful in the winter for vehicles)
If you assume EV will replace all that petrol and diesel the UK electricity grid installed capacity would need to rise from 70GW to about 200GW, this also assumes that each vehicle is charged adaptively (i.e. to smooth out charging peaks)

I am still not sure where the extra 130GW of installed capacity is coming from?

When you do the same calculation with the Domestic Gas Supply and if this heat has to be derived from Electricity Supply, assuming its not just generated from Gas! The figures for the UK Grid head north of 500GW, which IMO is totally unrealistic.

 

[N1]

I remember doing a back on an envelope calculation a few years ago....

Basically I took the amount of Diesel/Petrol that was sold each year and worked out the total energy contained.
Multiplied this figure by about 0.35 to get amount that's used to convert to useful kinetic energy. (but waste heat here is very useful in the winter for vehicles)
If you assume EV will replace all that petrol and diesel the UK electricity grid installed capacity would need to rise from 70GW to about 200GW, this also assumes that each vehicle is charged adaptively (i.e. to smooth out charging peaks)

I am still not sure where the extra 130GW of installed capacity is coming from?

When you do the same calculation with the Domestic Gas Supply and if this heat has to be derived from Electricity Supply, assuming its not just generated from Gas! The figures for the UK Grid head north of 500GW, which IMO is totally unrealistic.

National Grids assessment on capacity needed for EVs: Busting the myths and misconceptions about electric vehicles

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 9 Sep 2025 ==

So if you say a newish petrol car is averaging 45mpg, and you take National Grids figure of each gallon of petrol uses 4.5kWh to produce, then an existing petrol car is already sitting at 10 miles per KWh. A modern EV is typically 3 miles per KWh, however some can achieve 4 miles per KWh.

 

[J663738]

National Grids assessment on capacity needed for EVs: Busting the myths and misconceptions about electric vehicles

Since NG are a commercial company and its in their commercial interests to produce a 'report' like this.

"Even if we all switched to EVs overnight, we estimate demand would only increase by around 10%."

This has to be total Bullsh*t!
Like a Tobacco firm publishing a report on how safe smoking is.

 

[N1]

Since NG are a commercial company and its in their commercial interests to produce a 'report' like this.

"Even if we all switched to EVs overnight, we estimate demand would only increase by around 10%."

This has to be total Bullsh*t!
Like a Tobacco firm publishing a report on how safe smoking is.

It is based on the following figures:
Average annual mileage of a UK car is 7900 miles, average efficiency of 3.5 miles per KWh, gives 2114 KWh per year per car. Take it as 34million cars now and this gives a result of about 72 TWh. This is compared to 319 TWh of current electricity consumption (some of which is EVs, some is energy to refine petrol and diesel). Obviously this is just cars.

Doing it your method and calculating by volume of Petrol and Diesel sold (from RAC).

Diesel sold in 2024: 28221.6 million litres
Petrol sold in 2024: 17803.3 million litres

Diesel is 10.9 KWh per litre and Petrol is 9.6 KWh per litre.

So this produces 478.5 TWh of Calorific Value. Using your 35% efficiency in ICE is 167.5 TWh of equivalent electric energy. However, then need to account for regen braking, which can recover typically 60-70%, but we can say 50% to be conservative. So electrical energy needed to replace Diesel and Petrol is 83 TWh. So similar to the above result reported by National Grid. This is probably too low as EVs also aren't 100% efficient and have other losses in charging etc. so perhaps this is more like 90-100 TWh, but still not terrible. This is before you account for energy used in refining.

If I have made a mistake let me know.

Heating is another matter and will likely push overall electricity consumptions higher. But again, this is a lot of heating in domestic only, large commercial installations are ahead in decarbonising.

 

[Bald Rick]

I remember doing a back on an envelope calculation a few years ago....

Basically I took the amount of Diesel/Petrol that was sold each year and worked out the total energy contained.
Multiplied this figure by about 0.35 to get amount that's used to convert to useful kinetic energy. (but waste heat here is very useful in the winter for vehicles)
If you assume EV will replace all that petrol and diesel the UK electricity grid installed capacity would need to rise from 70GW to about 200GW, this also assumes that each vehicle is charged adaptively (i.e. to smooth out charging peaks)

I am still not sure where the extra 130GW of installed capacity is coming from?

Your Maths is wrong. I suspect you have confused power (kW) with electrical energy (kWh) somewhere in your calcs. The additional demand if every car switched to EV is around 9-10GW on average. Obviously there will be peaks and troughs in demand. But there’s oeaks and troughs in supply too. A happy coincidence.

When you do the same calculation with the Domestic Gas Supply and if this heat has to be derived from Electricity Supply, assuming its not just generated from Gas! The figures for the UK Grid head north of 500GW, which IMO is totally unrealistic.

Maths is wrong here too, and also doesn’t take into account the efficiency of heat pumps - typically 300% (ie 3 units of heat output for every 1 unit of electricity in). A close friend has recently acquired solar panels and a heat pump; their heating and hot water bill is essentially zero except for a few weeks in winter. Of course not everyone can do that, but many will.

 

[N1]

Your Maths is wrong. I suspect you have confused power (kW) with electrical energy (kWh) somewhere in your calcs. The additional demand if every car switched to EV is around 9-10GW on average. Obviously there will be peaks and troughs in demand. But there’s oeaks and troughs in supply too. A happy coincidence.

I mean, you could do the maths of 34 million cars, say they are all charging at 7.4 kW then that is 252 GW. Then say maybe only half are charging that is 126 GW. But in reality there is only going to be 5-10% of cars charging at any given time and that gives you 12.6 to 25.2 GW.

Average annual mileage is 7900 miles, that is 21.6 miles a day (365 days a year). At 3 miles per kWh then, each car needs 7.2 kWh a day, or about an hour on domestic charger. So the 5% end is probably fine.

 

[Harpers Tate]

My car is perhaps one of the most efficient EVs there is (was). My actual grid consumption - that is - the number of kWh added as measured at the supply (so, not simply what was used by the car internally) and therefore accounts for losses in the charging process itself, and also accounts for regeneration whilst in use - from new up to 5 Sept was 10545.45 kWh. I had covered 46976 miles (odometer measurement), and that calculates out to 4.456 miles per kWh. I'd assume the national average of all EVs at the current state of technology will be lower - not least because so many cars are designed to have the wind resistance of a large brick.

Alongside, to pre-empt some potential other observations, I will just note that
- it has never had new brake parts
- it has had one full set of 4 tyres, and the current ones are a long way from being worn.

Much of the charging is done at home, of course, where I use one of those providers who claim to supply 100% "green" electricity. Yes, I know the actual stuff coming out of the socket is the same mix as everyone else's but their theory is that they only buy their share of that mix from "green" sources - so unless and until we have two separate national grids - that's as good as it gets.

 

[Bald Rick]

Alongside, to pre-empt some potential other observations, I will just note that
- it has never had new brake parts
- it has had one full set of 4 tyres, and the current ones are a long way from being worn.

… but what about the exhaust ?

 

[bspahh]

… but what about the exhaust ?

This is for a KIA EV3

Amazon.co.uk

www.amazon.co.uk

 

[styles]

This is for a KIA EV3

Amazon.co.uk

www.amazon.co.uk

Wonder if you need to declare this mod to insurance