Show railcard immediately - what are the rules?

[Starmill]

On the contrary! The airlines know who has passed through security in the vast majority of airports, so they already can see your name and details at the gate. It's not an issue for them to simply issue a new boarding pass in this case, and even the worst airlines (hello, Wizzair) will accommodate travellers in this way.

Not much good if you haven't made it into the airport yet...

 

[mickey]

I was asked for my railcard yesterday when coming home from a long weekend away… it was buried in the bottom of my bag and took a while to retrieve (not 5 mins though!) I didn’t ask the inspector to do anything, but of course he waited while I dug it out. Anything else would have been entirely unreasonable (and laughed out of court, if he had decided to pursue it).

I suspect that in OP’s case, the RPI might have been considering the possibility that a new railcard might be purchased while he was elsewhere - or if there had been an intermediate stop, that the customers could have left the train. For this reason I’d never ask them to come back as OP did - if they choose to, that’s their prerogative, but I wouldn’t mind them waiting instead. It’s easy to see how miscommunication can occur here.

Nothing I’ve read so far has convinced me to get a digital card though. I’ll only do it when they build Apple Wallet functionality, as I trust that far more than any individual app.

 

[Starmill]

For this reason I’d never ask them to come back as OP did - if they choose to, that’s their prerogative, but I wouldn’t mind them waiting instead. It’s easy to see how miscommunication can occur here.

I definitely agree with this. There is no need to make this suggestion. If the inspector wishes to move on and return to you, they'll just do it.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Not much good if you haven't made it into the airport yet...

In which case you would go to a check in desk and get a duplicate boarding pass printed. Some airlines will charge you a steep fee for it (Ryanair) and some won’t charge a fee at all (British Airways).

 

[Howardh]

On the contrary! The airlines know who has passed through security in the vast majority of airports, so they already can see your name and details at the gate. It's not an issue for them to simply issue a new boarding pass in this case, and even the worst airlines (hello, Wizzair) will accommodate travellers in this way.

Years ago I lost my boarding pass somewhere between check-in and security, went back to check-in and was given a replacement, no bother. However I wonder if today I lost my paper pass (not one on the phone) after security whether they could replace it at the gate? It would be quite a performance to leave departures, probably through passport control, back to check-in (probably closed) and back through security?

Suffice to say it's best to have both a paper copy and on your phone! However if you simply have your phone and it dies; or gets lost, as your info is on an app even using someone else's phone (or maybe your own "spare older phone if you are carrying one) should do the job, get the app, log in with your email/password and all the info + ticket should be there?

Would the latter also apply if you have a train ticket, it should be available on any phone - not just yours, just find the e-mail, log in to your email, and the ticket can be downloaded from there? All tickets are sent to an email addy, even if you download one straight away into wallet?

 

[pokemonsuper9]

Would the latter also apply if you have a train ticket, it should be available on any phone - not just yours, just find the e-mail, log in to your email, and the ticket can be downloaded from there? All tickets are sent to an email addy, even if you download one straight away into wallet?

It depents,
E-tickets - yes
M-tickets, Season tickets - No.
Collect from machine, Smartcard - Obviously not.

When using non-season tickets I usally put them in my google wallet for convenience, even though the ticket will pretty much only ever be displayed on my 2nd (older) phone.

 

[Krokodil]

but basic customer service would say give them a small amount of time while checking tickets within their vicinity,

How long is reasonable though?

Checking before you get on is no help

It is in most cases. The exceptions do not disprove that.

 

[Anonymous10]

How long is reasonable though?


It is in most cases. The exceptions do not disprove that.

A few minutes. Most tickets I've seen display time of purchase so its obvious if a new ticket is bought.

 

[Cloud Strife]

Years ago I lost my boarding pass somewhere between check-in and security, went back to check-in and was given a replacement, no bother. However I wonder if today I lost my paper pass (not one on the phone) after security whether they could replace it at the gate? It would be quite a performance to leave departures, probably through passport control, back to check-in (probably closed) and back through security?

No need, the boarding pass can always be printed at the gate. While Ryanair charge for this, in practice they rarely do, and the charges will be officially dropped from November onwards. So yes, they can replace it at the gate if needs be, as (at most European airports anyway) they know who has scanned their boarding pass at security.

However if you simply have your phone and it dies; or gets lost, as your info is on an app even using someone else's phone (or maybe your own "spare older phone if you are carrying one) should do the job, get the app, log in with your email/password and all the info + ticket should be there?

So, with Ryanair's new system, the obligation is to have checked-in before you arrive at the airport. As long as you've done that, they'll print a boarding pass for you for free, it won't matter if your phone is broken or not, you'll just need your ID. It's a sensible way of doing things, as it completely removes the need for anyone to print their boarding passes before coming to the airport. The vast majority of passengers will just use the app, and if they can't use it for whatever reason, they can still get their boarding passes as long as they've checked in beforehand.

How long is reasonable though?

As long as it takes. It's not reasonable to expect passengers to be fined due to the failure of a system that requires internet access, and the courts are not going to agree with the railway if the passenger was experiencing internet connection difficulties through no fault of their own. It's actually where a prosecution would be problematic, because as long as the traveller was trying in good faith to obtain an internet connection, it's hard to see how they could be penalised if the app doesn't make the railcard available offline.

Having said all this, in this day and age, it really shouldn't be difficult for RPIs or otherwise to be able to see at a glance if a ticket has a valid railcard attached. If someone uses a digital railcard, then it should be perfectly possible to give your details to the RPI for them to pull up your digital railcard on their own devices.

 

[Bikeman78]

It is in most cases. The exceptions do not disprove that.

Nevertheless, I'm not going to risk a criminal record because my phone froze. My paper tickets live in my trouser pocket. I cannot ever recall them falling out or becoming unreadable during a journey.

 

[Lewisham2221]

As long as it takes. It's not reasonable to expect passengers to be fined due to the failure of a system that requires internet access, and the courts are not going to agree with the railway if the passenger was experiencing internet connection difficulties through no fault of their own. It's actually where a prosecution would be problematic, because as long as the traveller was trying in good faith to obtain an internet connection, it's hard to see how they could be penalised if the app doesn't make the railcard available offline.

As others have mentioned several times already, a "live" internet connection isn't required to display a digital railcard - although if the railcard hasn't been accessed for some time (we're talking several days here) it will require an internet connection to "sync" the data and display the photograph. Even in these situations, the apps will clearly display the presence of a railcard - including the expiry date and type of railcard, along with an error message when trying to display the railcard. In this instance, I would expect any guard or RPI etc to exercise discretion.

However, it should be noted that this is very different from the situation described by the OP, where the passenger was looking in the wrong app. In this case the RPI would be able to see that there was no applicable railcard held (at least not in the particular app that the passenger was using) and be far more suspicious that a request for "5 minutes" was a stalling tactic to allow the passenger to try and purchase a new railcard/new ticket/alight at the next station/otherwise make themselves scarce.

How long would you give someone to find their physical railcard? At what point do you decide that they're clearly trying it on and don't actually have a railcard at all?

Nevertheless, I'm not going to risk a criminal record because my phone froze. My paper tickets live in my trouser pocket. I cannot ever recall them falling out or becoming unreadable during a journey.

Happens often with some people. Allegedly.

 

[Krokodil]

As long as it takes

Would next Thursday be reasonable then?

 

[Haywain]

My paper tickets live in my trouser pocket. I cannot ever recall them falling out or becoming unreadable during a journey.

It's happened to me but my phone has never frozen. Not that paper versus digital is the subject of the thread.

 

[Jan Mayen]

It's happened to me but my phone has never frozen. Not that paper versus digital is the subject of the thread.

Indeed. But going back to the OP question 1 in post #1, I keep my ticket and Railcard out on the table in front of me, ready to show to whoever. If no table, then shirt pocket.
Other pockets are available, but which ever pocket, and whatever media is used, it's available in five seconds, not minutes. I believe that would satisfy anyone checking my ticket. It has so far.

 

[Cloud Strife]

Even in these situations, the apps will clearly display the presence of a railcard - including the expiry date and type of railcard, along with an error message when trying to display the railcard. In this instance, I would expect any guard or RPI etc to exercise discretion.

Yes, if it's clear that the relevant railcard is held and that it can't be displayed because of connectivity problems, it should be more than enough. It seems rather unlikely that someone would be using their phone for more than 72 hours without connecting to data as well, even if they've just stepped off a long haul flight and they don't have roaming enabled in the UK. Do all the railcard apps work in the same way?

However, it should be noted that this is very different from the situation described by the OP, where the passenger was looking in the wrong app. In this case the RPI would be able to see that there was no applicable railcard held (at least not in the particular app that the passenger was using) and be far more suspicious that a request for "5 minutes" was a stalling tactic to allow the passenger to try and purchase a new railcard/new ticket/alight at the next station/otherwise make themselves scarce.

I think in this case, looking in the wrong app isn't a defence, because it's reasonable to expect someone to know where their already-purchased railcard is. The precise version of events matters, and someone fiddling in the wrong app instantly looks suspicious. If they genuinely didn't know where the railcard is, I'd expect them to tell the RPI/whoever that, as it'll be easily confirmed by looking at the expiry date to see if it's been recently purchased.

I think it's also not very credible if someone with a 26-30 railcard doesn't know where the railcard is kept, despite having previously purchased it.

Would next Thursday be reasonable then?

If that's how long it takes to obtain a mobile signal, yes. But it's been clarified that the railcard apps will still show enough information to confirm that there's a valid railcard, so it shouldn't be a problem for any RPI to agree to come back to see the real thing once a mobile signal is obtained. If a system is relying on mobile internet, then it's not unreasonable that internet connectivity can be a problem. The critical thing is context: a newly bought railcard in an unfamiliar app is always going to be more difficult to find than a railcard which was purchased months ago.

 

[fandroid]

I think in this case, looking in the wrong app isn't a defence, because it's reasonable to expect someone to know where their already-purchased railcard is. The precise version of events matters, and someone fiddling in the wrong app instantly looks suspicious. If they genuinely didn't know where the railcard is, I'd expect them to tell the RPI/whoever that, as it'll be easily confirmed by looking at the expiry date to see if it's been recently purchased.

I think it's also not very credible if someone with a 26-30 railcard doesn't know where the railcard is kept, despite having previously purchased it.

You are making a lot of assumptions about people's competence in the event of an inspection. There are a thousand reasons why any individual at a particular time on a particular day might get in muddle with their phones and apps. It's often the case that one error then reinforces the anxiety so making more errors quite likely.

There's nothing inherently suspicious about fiddling in the wrong app.

Also, any competent inspector would be able to check, after a 5 minute absence, whether a Railcard displayed had been purchased within those 5 minutes! There's absolutely no need to hover threateningly over an anxious passenger.

 

[Starmill]

In which case you would go to a check in desk and get a duplicate boarding pass printed. Some airlines will charge you a steep fee for it (Ryanair) and some won’t charge a fee at all (British Airways).

Indeed. I always do that myself for Loganair. Part of the pleasure of not flying with a dodgy airline if you ask me, but each to their own.

 

[Tetchytyke]

I think it's also not very credible if someone with a 26-30 railcard doesn't know where the railcard is kept, despite having previously purchased it.

That assumes the railcard app is faultless. I have had it a couple of times where it has randomly removed my valid railcard from the app; in those cases once my wife had it on her phone instead and the second time I noticed before a ticket check and was able to resolve it. It also sometimes randomly decides to display my oldest railcard first- and that one expired years ago.

I do wonder if something similar happened in this case. Person buys a railcard, forgets to download it to their app or finds it absent from their app, then has to scrabble around getting the download code and adding it to the app again. And yes, I know the T&Cs say that the railcard must be in the app to be valid.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 9 Sep 2025 ==

Indeed. I always do that myself for Loganair. Part of the pleasure of not flying with a dodgy airline if you ask me, but each to their own.

Way off topic, but agreed. Unless the price differential is insane, I will always choose Loganair.

In a related issue, the T&Cs for the digital railcard app really are stacked against the passenger. You must use the app but RDG also say that if their app malfunctions, even if it is due to RDG's error, then it is tough luck for the passenger. As above, I have experienced a couple of app malfunctions. Luckily I noticed before a ticket check and/or the railcard was also available on another device, but that was pure luck.

 

[Starmill]

In a related issue, the T&Cs for the digital railcard app really are stacked against the passenger. You must use the app but RDG also say that if their app malfunctions, even if it is due to RDG's error, then it is tough luck for the passenger. As above, I have experienced a couple of app malfunctions. Luckily I noticed before a ticket check and/or the railcard was also available on another device, but that was pure luck.

I guess we'll be waiting for a very, very long time if we'd like Loganair style customer service from the railway, sadly.

 

[redreni]

Would next Thursday be reasonable then?

Not on the face of it, no, but then again, large companies routinely take weeks to do things they are under a legal duty to do 'on request' and which they could easily do straight away if they wanted to. So it depends if you think the same standard of reasonableness should apply to people as to organisations, or if you think organisations should be presumed to be honest and fair whereas people should be presumed to be trying it on.

If you're going to penalty fare somebody or write them up for prosecution for not producing a Railcard when asked, you just have to show they had every reasonable opportunity to produce said Railcard but didn't. It is a defence to say you had it, you were trying to find it and the member of staff didn't give you a chance. Whether a defence like that succeeds will depend on the facts of the case insofar as they can be ascertained by whatever caseworker, appeal body or court might end up considering the matter.

I fear anyone below the level of an actual judge or jury might easily take the @Tazi Hupefi -esque view that they should interpret and even embellish everything to be as anti-passenger as it is humanly possible to be, which is why I always have my tickets and Railcard handy, ready for inspection if required.

I don't think there's a single answer to the question 'how long is reasonable?', though.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 9 Sep 2025 ==

In a related issue, the T&Cs for the digital railcard app really are stacked against the passenger. You must use the app but RDG also say that if their app malfunctions, even if it is due to RDG's error, then it is tough luck for the passenger. As above, I have experienced a couple of app malfunctions. Luckily I noticed before a ticket check and/or the railcard was also available on another device, but that was pure luck.

Really?

I'll take a look at that when time permits. Sounds like a textbook example of an unfair (and hence unenforceable) contractual term.

 

[Haywain]

In a related issue, the T&Cs for the digital railcard app really are stacked against the passenger. You must use the app but RDG also say that if their app malfunctions, even if it is due to RDG's error, then it is tough luck for the passenger.

A number of apps are available for purchasing railcards, it depends on the retailer which app you use.

 

[Krokodil]

So it depends if you think the same standard of reasonableness should apply to people as to organisations, or if you think organisations should be presumed to be honest and fair whereas people should be presumed to be trying it on.

If you're dealing with an organisation then presumably you know where you can contact them to chase things up.

 

[Tetchytyke]

I'll take a look at that when time permits. Sounds like a textbook example of an unfair (and hence unenforceable) contractual term.

Condition 4 and Condition 9:

4. Availability

4.1. The 'Railcard' app is available to handheld mobile devices running Apple iOS and Android OS. RDG will use reasonable efforts to make the 'Railcard' app available at all times. However, you acknowledge the 'Railcard' app is provided over the internet and mobile networks and so the quality and availability of the 'Railcard' app may be affected by factors outside RDG’s reasonable control.

4.2. RDG does not accept any responsibility whatsoever for unavailability of the 'Railcard' App, or any difficulty or inability to download or access content or any other communication system failure which may result in the 'Railcard' app being unavailable.

4.3. RDG will not be responsible for any support or maintenance for the 'Railcard' app.

9. Limitation of liability

9.1. In no event will RDG be liable for any direct, indirect, special, punitive, exemplary or consequential losses or damages of whatsoever kind arising out of your use or access to the 'Railcard' app, including loss of profit or the like whether or not in the contemplation of the parties, whether based on breach of contract, tort (including negligence), product liability or otherwise.

Railcard Terms & Conditions - 26-30 Railcard

www.26-30railcard.co.uk

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 9 Sep 2025 ==

I don't think there's a single answer to the question 'how long is reasonable?', though.

There isn't. It is both subjective and context-specific.

In my line of work we have up to seven calendar days to provide documentation "on request and without undue delay" to the regulator. That is what our regulator has decided is reasonable in that context.

You also have seven calendar days to produce if the police stop you and ask to see your driving documentation and insurance.

Clearly seven calendar days to show your ticket and railcard on a train would be nonsensical though.

 

[redreni]

Condition 4 and Condition 9:

Railcard Terms & Conditions - 26-30 Railcard

www.26-30railcard.co.uk

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 9 Sep 2025 ==


There isn't. It is both subjective and context-specific.

In my line of work we have up to seven calendar days to provide documentation "on request and without undue delay" to the regulator. That is what our regulator has decided is reasonable in that context.

You also have seven calendar days to produce if the police stop you and ask to see your driving documentation and insurance.

Clearly seven calendar days to show your ticket and railcard on a train would be nonsensical though.

Thanks.

So you pay them for a digital Railcard on the basis they take "no responsibility whatsoever" for providing you with a digital Railcard?

So a bit like buying a scratchcard? It might or might not be worth something? Only worse, because if it turns out not to be worth anything, you could be criminally and civilly liable for travelling without a valid ticket?

I think I'll pass, unless someone can definitely say this clause is unenforceable where the problem is with the app? I can't see how it possibly could be enforced, but why take the risk? They've certainly written it in a way that suggest they're going to try to enforce it.

 

[Cloud Strife]

I fear anyone below the level of an actual judge or jury might easily take the @Tazi Hupefi -esque view that they should interpret and even embellish everything to be as anti-passenger as it is humanly possible to be, which is why I always have my tickets and Railcard handy, ready for inspection if required.

Generally speaking, what gives companies / organisations the advantage in these situations is that they know that the vast majority of people are not legally trained or aware of the countless specifics of law. For instance, if a RPI goes straight for a penalty fare without considering the circumstances, there's a strong argument for refusing to accept the penalty fare, as it will force the RPI to write down the exact version of events. If the RPI refuses to write down the events exactly as they happened, then they're already in a legal quagmire that they might not be able to get themselves out of easily.

So a bit like buying a scratchcard? It might or might not be worth something? Only worse, because if it turns out not to be worth anything, you could be criminally and civilly liable for travelling without a valid ticket?

I'd be very surprised if this clause held up in court. The user of the app would be using it in good faith, and as long as they made a clear effort to show the problem to the authorised person in question, it's difficult to see the courts doing anything other than throwing the case out if it went that far. Generally speaking however, companies choose to drop cases rather than risking precedent being set by the courts, especially if they don't want a contract examined closely.

It does however show a massive failing with the digital railcard system if there's no way for an RPI to check whether the person does actually hold a valid one. They should be able to pull up the details of a digital railcard held by simply asking the traveller for their name and date of birth.

 

[Bikeman78]

I think in this case, looking in the wrong app isn't a defence, because it's reasonable to expect someone to know where their already-purchased railcard is. The precise version of events matters, and someone fiddling in the wrong app instantly looks suspicious. If they genuinely didn't know where the railcard is, I'd expect them to tell the RPI/whoever that, as it'll be easily confirmed by looking at the expiry date to see if it's been recently purchased.

I think it's also not very credible if someone with a 26-30 railcard doesn't know where the railcard is kept, despite having previously purchased it.

Over many years of travelling, I have seen many people struggling to find their tickets, be they paper or digital. Doesn't mean that they are on the fiddle. The majority that I have observed have simply been a bit disorganised and the ticket was eventually found. I bought tickets online for the Shard last year. I had the email ready when I arrived but there was a problem viewing the tickets. My phone had logged me out of microsoft and then the stored password wasn't right. Took at least two minutes of faffing to resolve.

 

[Cloud Strife]

Over many years of travelling, I have seen many people struggling to find their tickets, be they paper or digital. Doesn't mean that they are on the fiddle. The majority that I have observed have simply been a bit disorganised and the ticket was eventually found. I bought tickets online for the Shard last year. I had the email ready when I arrived but there was a problem viewing the tickets. My phone had logged me out of microsoft and then the stored password wasn't right. Took at least two minutes of faffing to resolve.

Yes, exactly. I've done the same as well, and I think most of us have done the same. The courts would never agree with the view that you have to produce it immediately and without delay, because this simply doesn't reflect how real life works. What is reasonable is making a clear attempt to find the railcard (or ticket) in question, and not messing about by opening a game and playing with it instead. If your phone is in front of you, you're opening travel-related apps (or e-mail) and you're clearly looking for the railcard while making it clear that you don't know where it is, it's more than enough.

 

[35B]

Thanks.

So you pay them for a digital Railcard on the basis they take "no responsibility whatsoever" for providing you with a digital Railcard?

So a bit like buying a scratchcard? It might or might not be worth something? Only worse, because if it turns out not to be worth anything, you could be criminally and civilly liable for travelling without a valid ticket?

I think I'll pass, unless someone can definitely say this clause is unenforceable where the problem is with the app? I can't see how it possibly could be enforced, but why take the risk? They've certainly written it in a way that suggest they're going to try to enforce it.

Clause 9 is a reasonable limitation of liability. Clause 4 is reasonable in principle, but begs a fundamental question (especially for digital only railcards) about whether the design of the app is sufficiently robust. They may be edge cases, but the number of scenarios in which the design, by requiring periodic authentication, will prevent holders from displaying a valid railcard in a timely manner is such that the condition, and hence the associated limitation of liability, is unfair.

 

[Richardr]

https://www.railcard.co.uk/managing-your-digital-railcard/ says

So, if you access your railcard online before starting your journey, you’ll be fine.
If you’re asked to show it when travelling and you didn’t do this, you’ll may not be.

The bit quoted from the link above:

The Railcard app on your device will continue to show your digital Railcard as long as your mobile device has connected to the internet at some point within the last 72 hours.

I read that as the mobile device, i.e. the phone, needs to have been connected to the internet within the past 72 hours, and as such is independent of whether or not the railcard app has been opened. Is that others reading?

 

[pokemonsuper9]

I read that as the mobile device, i.e. the phone, needs to have been connected to the internet within the past 72 hours, and as such is independent of whether or not the railcard app has been opened. Is that others reading?

The app would have no way of knowing if it was connected to the internet while not open.
As far as I know the railcard app doesn't do anything in the background.

Once you open the railcard it's there for 72 hours.