Why don’t heritage railways make an effort to “sell” diesel traction?

[Mike Machin]

This also follows on to my previous comments regarding aesthetics. Unless you were really into the hobby, you probably wouldn't see much beyond "big blue box with or without nose" when it came to diesels, HST aside. And following on to the Instagram generation, big blue boxes don't really look as attractive or aesthetic to the followers etc, as does the shining, polished brass, fire-breathing, coal-belching living engineering monster that is a steam locomotive.

HSTs tend to get a reasonable showing, as they look so uniquely different to anything running. In the same vein, I don't think a steamer like Bulleid's Leader would garner much attention owing to its rather boring appearance. Aesthetics play a big role, and you rarely get a second chance at a first impression.

This is so true. I remember many years ago being on the platform at Alresford admiring WC Pacific 'Swanage' which was waiting at the head of a train to Alresford. A mum and child entered the platform and the excited child ran ahead to 'see the engine.' Oh, mum it's a diesel the disappointed youngster the youngster cried back to mum. When mum caught-up with her little man, I explained to mum that it was a steam locomotive, a very special steam engine. I pointed out the smoke, the hissing and I asked the fireman if they could come up to the footplate. Mum beamed and the little one was so happy, we had gone from diesel disappointment to steam happiness.

Enthusiasts tend to view railways through the prism of their own interests. To the general public, who are not remotely connected with railways form one day to the next in everyday life everything is much more simple. in order, there's Flying Scotsman, Steam Trains and Diesel and Electric Trains.

I love to see heritage diesel locomotives and DMUs running, but I'm one of a very, very small minority of people who know what I'm looking at. Families in particular won't pay good money and spend valuable time watching diesels or electrics, when they can probably do exactly the same at their local station.The whole point of their day out is to 'ride on a steam train.'

 

[UP13]

Was at the Bluebell Diesel Gala and it was interesting to see a number of normal people turn up not knowing what was going on.

My son and I ended up sharing a compartment with a large group of English and American visitors who were very interested in the coach and how old fashioned it was. They had no idea it was a special event and didn't even know that all the trains were diesel hauled.

Steam is still the main draw but it goes to show that with an interesting route, interesting carriages and a good visitor experience, diesel trains can still be a seen as a good day out even if not as good as steam.

 

[amahy]

This is so true. I remember many years ago being on the platform at Alresford admiring WC Pacific 'Swanage' which was waiting at the head of a train to Alresford. A mum and child entered the platform and the excited child ran ahead to 'see the engine.' Oh, mum it's a diesel the disappointed youngster the youngster cried back to mum. When mum caught-up with her little man, I explained to mum that it was a steam locomotive, a very special steam engine. I pointed out the smoke, the hissing and I asked the fireman if they could come up to the footplate. Mum beamed and the little one was so happy, we had gone from diesel disappointment to steam happiness.

Enthusiasts tend to view railways through the prism of their own interests. To the general public, who are not remotely connected with railways form one day to the next in everyday life everything is much more simple. in order, there's Flying Scotsman, Steam Trains and Diesel and Electric Trains.

I love to see heritage diesel locomotives and DMUs running, but I'm one of a very, very small minority of people who know what I'm looking at. Families in particular won't pay good money and spend valuable time watching diesels or electrics, when they can probably do exactly the same at their local station.The whole point of their day out is to 'ride on a steam train.'

It's all well and good that the public prefer steam, but what about when heritage railways can't run steam? Things like cost of coal inflation, increasing frequency of hot and dry conditions, and volunteer shortages all make it harder for heritage railways to run steam all of the time. If they can't adapt, and coal becomes too expensive, or we get a long, hot, dry summer, it would be a huge blow to heritage railways. As has been said before, diesels are a lifeline to heritage lines, and they could not continue running without them. So why be so negative about them?

 

[35B]

It's all well and good that the public prefer steam, but what about when heritage railways can't run steam? Things like cost of coal inflation, increasing frequency of hot and dry conditions, and volunteer shortages all make it harder for heritage railways to run steam all of the time. If they can't adapt, and coal becomes too expensive, or we get a long, hot, dry summer, it would be a huge blow to heritage railways. As has been said before, diesels are a lifeline to heritage lines, and they could not continue running without them. So why be so negative about them?

A very good question. But there are spaces between “promoting” and “being negative” about things.

As for the examples you give, I’d suggest there’s a massive difference between having to substitute a diesel (eg for fire risk) and running diesel only. The possibility of steam is an important draw, and I doubt that a heritage railway would get the traffic it wants without at least the prospect of steam.

I was at Embsay on Saturday. Totally unscientifically, I saw several times more people in the unhooked carriage on the steam set than I did in the whole of the diesel set.

 

[Mike Machin]

It's all well and good that the public prefer steam, but what about when heritage railways can't run steam? Things like cost of coal inflation, increasing frequency of hot and dry conditions, and volunteer shortages all make it harder for heritage railways to run steam all of the time. If they can't adapt, and coal becomes too expensive, or we get a long, hot, dry summer, it would be a huge blow to heritage railways. As has been said before, diesels are a lifeline to heritage lines, and they could not continue running without them. So why be so negative about them?

There’s definitely a need to have the ability to operate diesels on occasions when running steam isn’t possible, last-minute failures, drought conditions with an increased fire risk etc. But the general public, particularly families come to see and ride ‘on the steam train.’ Most will of course reluctantly accept a last-minute substitution, although if they arrive and find that steam isn’t running will most definitely say ‘oh, that’s a shame, we’ll go somewhere else and come back another day, or go to another railway instead.’

For most casual non-enthusiast visitor, the whole point of visiting the railway is steam. If they want to ride on a diesel-powered train, most would opt to go somewhere on the national network, the kids still get the experience of riding on a train and there’s a wide choice of destinations to provide entertainment at the end of the journey.

To me, as an avid spotter in the early seventies BR blue era, I love diesels, but being realistic until diesels have completely disappeared from the national network they will always be a ‘difficult sell’ to the general public. Perhaps a way to slowly introduce them to the wider public is for the railways to try organising seventies or eighties weekends. An eighties weekend with music and fashions from the era, eighties classic cars, fashion, early computer games, eighties icon lookalikes with a backdrop of suitable traction on the railway could possibly be attractive to those in their early sixties perhaps?

 

[Robin Edwards]

There’s definitely a need to have the ability to operate diesels on occasions when running steam isn’t possible, last-minute failures, drought conditions with an increased fire risk etc. But the general public, particularly families come to see and ride ‘on the steam train.’ Most will of course reluctantly accept a last-minute substitution, although if they arrive and find that steam isn’t running will most definitely say ‘oh, that’s a shame, we’ll go somewhere else and come back another day, or go to another railway instead.’

For most casual non-enthusiast visitor, the whole point of visiting the railway is steam. If they want to ride on a diesel-powered train, most would opt to go somewhere on the national network, the kids still get the experience of riding on a train and there’s a wide choice of destinations to provide entertainment at the end of the journey.

To me, as an avid spotter in the early seventies BR blue era, I love diesels, but being realistic until diesels have completely disappeared from the national network they will always be a ‘difficult sell’ to the general public. Perhaps a way to slowly introduce them to the wider public is for the railways to try organising seventies or eighties weekends. An eighties weekend with music and fashions from the era, eighties classic cars, fashion, early computer games, eighties icon lookalikes with a backdrop of suitable traction on the railway could possibly be attractive to those in their early sixties perhaps?

The thing is, haulage with a diesel isn't a straightforward thing to achieve on today's railway. Apart from class 68s on Chiltern and HSTs in the SW or Scotland, DMUs is all you have. The diesels enjoyed in the 70's are likely older than many/most visitors to heritage railways.

 

[Belperpete]

The thing is, haulage with a diesel isn't a straightforward thing to achieve on today's railway. Apart from class 68s on Chiltern and HSTs in the SW or Scotland, DMUs is all you have. The diesels enjoyed in the 70's are likely older than many/most visitors to heritage railways.

A DMU is a diesel - the clue is in the name DMU. You are being pretty niche if you are expecting the public to be enthusiastic just because the diesel is in a separate box on wheels.

I expect that most people who travelled on BR in the 70s wouldn't say it was something to be enjoyed - endured would be the term I would use. I was certainly enthusiastic when HSTs displaced the antiquated loco hauled trains, as they were a step change in passenger comfort and journey experience. I suspect that it was mainly the train spotters who enjoyed the diesel-hauled trains, not those who were riding behind them.

 

[35B]

A DMU is a diesel - the clue is in the name DMU. You are being pretty niche if you are expecting the public to be enthusiastic just because the diesel is in a separate box on wheels.

I expect that most people who travelled on BR in the 70s wouldn't say it was something to be enjoyed - endured would be the term I would use. I was certainly enthusiastic when HSTs displaced the antiquated loco hauled trains, as they were a step change in passenger comfort and journey experience. I suspect that it was mainly the train spotters who enjoyed the diesel-hauled trains, not those who were riding behind them.

Precisely. If I talk to non-enthusiast friends or family about the joys of loco haulage, I get sideways looks and a sense of "what's he on".

There are two major pieces of differentiation from today's normal travel:
1. Steam, because it is now effectively extinct in day to day use.
2. Older carriages, with tables for 4 and antique feeling interiors - I really mean Mk2c and older.

Heritage railways generally emphasise (1), but don't do a lot with (2). But if they get (2) right, the traction matters less and diesels will be more popular. But Wilbert Awdry still has a lot to answer for...

 

[UP13]

(2). But if they get (2) right, the traction matters less and diesels will be more popular. But Wilbert Awdry still has a lot to answer for...

From my experience, a Class 33 on the Swanage didn't detract from the Devon Belle Observation car. We had a Class 08 doing a push pull with the autocoach at Didcot last weekend, and we were too distracted by the coach to notice it was diesel. My 8 year old loved being in the 4VEP carriage at the Bluebell that it didn't matter what the locomotive was. The Americans we sat next too were so interested in the mk1 compartment, they didn't know it was a class 25 diesel and probably assumed it was steam.

Make the carriage/experience more interesting then it becomes the centre of attention. A typical mk1 TSO carriage isn't that interesting once you've had a few rides on them and then the traction becomes the centre of attention.

 

[Ashley Hill]

But Wilbert Awdry still has a lot to answer for...

Whilst watching Nunney Castle pass last Sunday one young mother was heard telling her nipper "Oh look, here comes Thomas!)

 

[duffield]

From my experience, a Class 33 on the Swanage didn't detract from the Devon Belle Observation car. We had a Class 08 doing a push pull with the autocoach at Didcot last weekend, and we were too distracted by the coach to notice it was diesel. My 8 year old loved being in the 4VEP carriage at the Bluebell that it didn't matter what the locomotive was. The Americans we sat next too were so interested in the mk1 compartment, they didn't know it was a class 25 diesel and probably assumed it was steam.

Make the carriage/experience more interesting then it becomes the centre of attention. A typical mk1 TSO carriage isn't that interesting once you've had a few rides on them and then the traction becomes the centre of attention.

Yes, there are also some impressive bar coaches, which I've mentioned before - but I hadn't come across the bar coach on the GCR 'B' set until the diesel gala this weekend, it looked as if it might have been recently refurbished and was very well turned out and popular. Not so much one for the kiddies, but quite attractive for non-enthusiast adults to enjoy a pint or a g & t in very novel surroundings.

I'm not saying that just stating "there's a bar coach" is going to attract many non-enthusiasts, but some prominent interior pictures of these and other special coaches and observation cars may attract customers who are looking for steam but might be OK with diesel when they these other attractions.

Of course, once again here I suppose I'm missing the point which is about "selling diesel" rather than persuading people to overlook it! But on the other hand, if people enjoy the experience due to the carriages they may return regardless of steam vs diesel in the future and there would be less need to "sell" the traction at all (plus a few of them might get to appreciate particularly some of the more distinctive locos).

 

[amahy]

Precisely. If I talk to non-enthusiast friends or family about the joys of loco haulage, I get sideways looks and a sense of "what's he on".

There are two major pieces of differentiation from today's normal travel:
1. Steam, because it is now effectively extinct in day to day use.
2. Older carriages, with tables for 4 and antique feeling interiors - I really mean Mk2c and older.

Heritage railways generally emphasise (1), but don't do a lot with (2). But if they get (2) right, the traction matters less and diesels will be more popular. But Wilbert Awdry still has a lot to answer for...

Regarding (1), there are plenty of things that aren't extinct in day to day use which are very popular with the public. Cars being a prime example (as I have discussed in previous posts). Factually speaking, cars have changed much less than diesel trains over the years!

 

[35B]

Regarding (1), there are plenty of things that aren't extinct in day to day use which are very popular with the public. Cars being a prime example (as I have discussed in previous posts). Factually speaking, cars have changed much less than diesel trains over the years!

In fundamentals, I agree. But in the appearance of what looks "old", there's still a break sometime around the 1960s.

And we're dealing with a subjective sense of difference, where the difference between a 9F and a 40 is much more obvious than between that 40 and a 68.

To note, I gladly rode behind 37294 and 78022 at the weekend, and on the Worth Valley DMU.

 

[Gostav]

I think the problem is that in this country, diesel power does not command the same national pride as steam power. Almost everyone knows about Britain's glorious achievements in the age of steam, by contrast, the diesel era of British railways was now very successful.

Diesel-powered stocks often to be overly standardized on heritage railways, with most being either BR diesel locomotives or BR first generation DMUs.

Only very few railways operate sufficiently unique diesel stocks and more unique stocks are either out of service for a long time, or are always under maintenance, or at very poor situation, such as Class 140, GWR railcars.

 

[eldomtom2]

BR first generation DMUs.

First generation DMUs are a positive point though - I've found that the general public tends to remember them fondly, and there's the obvious selling point of being able to look out the front and watch the driver.

 

[duffield]

First generation DMUs are a positive point though - I've found that the general public tends to remember them fondly, and there's the obvious selling point of being able to look out the front and watch the driver.

Kids seem to love that. The main problem is that there's only a handful of seats with really good views, and I'm usually occupying one of the best ones.

 

[NER1621]

I think the problem is that in this country, diesel power does not command the same national pride as steam power. Almost everyone knows about Britain's glorious achievements in the age of steam, by contrast, the diesel era of British railways was now very successful.

There may be something in this. Earlier someone mentioned American visitors not caring that the loco was a diesel. In the USA most tourist railways are entirely diesel, and the US diesel design industry, especially the early streamliners, is a matter of pride. Oil is also a domestically-produced “patriotic” and culturally-significant fuel in the USA - the same way older people in the UK feel about coal (even if we know about its climate-wrecking properties) - British people have never really felt like an oil-producing nation.

Or maybe this is just a matter of time - where the USA is now we will be in twenty years time (steam died in the USA by the mid fifties apart from a very few holdouts)?

One other point: British people seem to take a long time to internalise cultural and organisational change. Lots of people talked until quite frequently about “the water board” or “the gas board”, and for many non-enthusiasts “modern railway” vehicles are still blue diesel locos and blue/grey carriages bearing the double-arrow symbol: sector and privatisation liveries haven’t really made an impact. So if they see blue diesels with double arrow symbols they don’t think “heritage”.

 

[Trainlog]

nly very few railways operate sufficiently unique diesel stocks and more unique stocks are either out of service for a long time, or are always under maintenance, or at very poor situation, such as Class 140, GWR railcars.

Seeing as the one in the NRM is unlikely to be overhauled, that leaves two GWR railcars around for operational use.

The one at Didcot is operational, however, I have not really seen it in recent years go and visit heritage railways. I'm not sure if it has been requested to visit heritage railways, though, which is a shame as it would be interesting to see it run a shuttle between Kidderminster and Bewdley on the Severn Valley railway.

The KESR one is still under restoration. I could imagine that one being a popular attraction on the line when it is operational. Again, I am not sure about its chances of it visiting other heritage railways, though.

Personally, I would quite like to see one have a similar one-off experience on the Looe branch like the GWR steam railmotor did.

 

[Tetragon213]

Having just come off the SVR GBRf Gala, some observations...

The Mk2 air-braked set was actually surprisingly popular. It was consistently drawing a healthy glut of riders, possibly out of the sheer novelty of being pulled by freighters.

Despite all the promotional material pushing the diesels, however, Hagley Hall was still hauling plenty of visitors who were apparently not that interested in the freight diesels.

The Class 73 services were, for lack of a better term, seemingly filled with full-blown gricers. I also did not expect the horn to sound the way it did.

The Class 40 Whistler was the star of the show on Saturday, probably because it was the last run before it returns to the ELR I believe. I was in the 2nd or 3rd coach on the return, and it was absolutely brilliant hearing everyone in the first Compo Coach screaming "my lords!" at the top of their lungs, as we entered Bewdley Tunnel. Watching hardcore diesel enthusiasts being hardcore diesel enthusiasts is always good fun, almost as much as being pulled by the diesel itself!

All in all, there is definitely interest in diesel. However, it was pretty clear that a good chunk of the visitors were the "veg", for lack of a better word, and even in the midst of a diesel event, there were a good number of visitors whose only real interest was our steamer Hagley.

 

[NER1621]

was absolutely brilliant hearing everyone in the first Compo Coach screaming "my lords!" at the top of their lungs, as we entered Bewdley Tunnel.

You obviously have a different understanding of the phrase “absolutely brilliant” from mine!

 

[35B]

Having just come off the SVR GBRf Gala, some observations...

The Mk2 air-braked set was actually surprisingly popular. It was consistently drawing a healthy glut of riders, possibly out of the sheer novelty of being pulled by freighters.

Despite all the promotional material pushing the diesels, however, Hagley Hall was still hauling plenty of visitors who were apparently not that interested in the freight diesels.

The Class 73 services were, for lack of a better term, seemingly filled with full-blown gricers. I also did not expect the horn to sound the way it did.

The Class 40 Whistler was the star of the show on Saturday, probably because it was the last run before it returns to the ELR I believe. I was in the 2nd or 3rd coach on the return, and it was absolutely brilliant hearing everyone in the first Compo Coach screaming "my lords!" at the top of their lungs, as we entered Bewdley Tunnel. Watching hardcore diesel enthusiasts being hardcore diesel enthusiasts is always good fun, almost as much as being pulled by the diesel itself!

All in all, there is definitely interest in diesel. However, it was pretty clear that a good chunk of the visitors were the "veg", for lack of a better word, and even in the midst of a diesel event, there were a good number of visitors whose only real interest was our steamer Hagley.

It was a diesel gala, so drew diesel fans. The interesting question in the OP is not how you serve them (us), but how you sell diesel traction to those who aren’t already fans. The fact that plenty of visitors went for Hagley Hall is probably a useful sign of where general public interest is focused, and how much of a challenge there is to redirect it.

As a crusty 50-something, what I’ll also observe (in line with @NER1621j is that dismissing non enthusiasts as “veg”, or yelling “My Lords”, is a surefire way to deter interest from both the general public and railways in providing running days. That’s the same now as it was 30 years ago.

 

[Robin Edwards]

In fundamentals, I agree. But in the appearance of what looks "old", there's still a break sometime around the 1960s.

And we're dealing with a subjective sense of difference, where the difference between a 9F and a 40 is much more obvious than between that 40 and a 68.

To note, I gladly rode behind 37294 and 78022 at the weekend, and on the Worth Valley DMU.

I definitely think that Heritage DMUs running on Heritage Railways have interest for many demographics but my earlier response shared my view that a 'modern' DMU ride on the 'Big Railway' has far less attraction IMO than any offering on a Heritage Line - assuming it's Heritage that the visitor is looking for. Exceptions for me would be scenic railways - my family would be far-more taken with a 156/158 on the West Highland line than a 101 on the Great Central Railway for instance.

 

[Harpo]

Having just come off the SVR GBRf Gala, some observations...

By comparison, the SVR has a ‘65 years of class 37s’ event in just 3 weeks time with only 2 class 37s listed and no suggestion of anything further to announce.

Compared to the advanced marketing for the GBrF event, its a very weak offering and getting almost too close to arrange leave, travel and accomodation.

65 Years of Class 37 - Severn Valley Railway

The Autumn Diesel Bash will be taking place at the Severn Valley Railway from 2- 5 October, celebrating 65 years of the Class 37.

svr.co.uk

 

[bramling]

It was a diesel gala, so drew diesel fans. The interesting question in the OP is not how you serve them (us), but how you sell diesel traction to those who aren’t already fans. The fact that plenty of visitors went for Hagley Hall is probably a useful sign of where general public interest is focused, and how much of a challenge there is to redirect it.

As a crusty 50-something, what I’ll also observe (in line with @NER1621j is that dismissing non enthusiasts as “veg”, or yelling “My Lords”, is a surefire way to deter interest from both the general public and railways in providing running days. That’s the same now as it was 30 years ago.

If this is the sort of thing people will encounter on diesel-hauled trains, it’s probably no wonder the general population avoids diesel. Unfortunately the behaviour of some people at a typical diesel gala is likely to make people come away feeling they’ve attended a freak show. And gets even worse later in the day when the alcohol has been sloshing round.

 

[amahy]

As a crusty 50-something, what I’ll also observe (in line with @NER1621j is that dismissing non enthusiasts as “veg”, or yelling “My Lords”, is a surefire way to deter interest from both the general public and railways in providing running days. That’s the same now as it was 30 years ago.

If this is the sort of thing people will encounter on diesel-hauled trains, it’s probably no wonder the general population avoids diesel. Unfortunately the behaviour of some people at a typical diesel gala is likely to make people come away feeling they’ve attended a freak show. And gets even worse later in the day when the alcohol has been sloshing round.

Again, similar to my posts about vintage cars vs steam locomotives. Football is the most popular sport in the UK, and is full of people cheering on their team at the top of their lungs. In my experience, behaviour of football fans is often much worse than the "veg" at diesel galas! It's only the same thing: what's wrong with people being enthusastic about something they love?

 

[Calthrop]

Again, similar to my posts about vintage cars vs steam locomotives. Football is the most popular sport in the UK, and is full of people cheering on their team at the top of their lungs. In my experience, behaviour of football fans is often much worse than the "veg" at diesel galas! It's only the same thing: what's wrong with people being enthusastic about something they love?

One of life's unfairnesses, in play here. There are things highly esteemed by very many -- crazy and over-the-top behaviour (including insults directed at "the other") in respect of which: gets in most folks' eyes, as it were a "licence"; and other things, about which fewer people are passionate -- such conduct over which, strikes many as distasteful. (The wilder antics both of football fans, and diesel fans, seem ludicrous to me personally; but as the wise American long ago put it, "it neither breaks my leg nor picks my pocket".)

 

[kje7812]

By comparison, the SVR has a ‘65 years of class 37s’ event in just 3 weeks time with only 2 class 37s listed and no suggestion of anything further to announce.

Compared to the advanced marketing for the GBrF event, its a very weak offering and getting almost too close to arrange leave, travel and accomodation.

65 Years of Class 37 - Severn Valley Railway

The Autumn Diesel Bash will be taking place at the Severn Valley Railway from 2- 5 October, celebrating 65 years of the Class 37.

svr.co.uk

Oh, there are more planned. It's arranging transport that I believe is slowing things down.

 

[Tetragon213]

You obviously have a different understanding of the phrase “absolutely brilliant” from mine!

It was brilliant comedy for me
I'll never understand why Diesel Bashers will flail out of droplights and scream "my lords" at the tops of their lungs, but it's always hilarious to watch!

 

[Sun Chariot]

Oh, there are more planned. It's arranging transport that I believe is slowing things down.

And that sums up one root problem in creating general public engagement and demand for an event:

Option 1: go to Paulton Park / Thorpe Park / Pompey Historic Dockyard / RNAS Air Fleet Yeovilton (others available!), which offer a high degree of certainty of what to expect and when - with acceptable lead-times to book travel / accommodation.

Option 2: take a chance booking travel and accommodation for a diesel event such the class 37 anniversary mentioned: ie without knowing whether you and your family will get the "entertainment value" you want for the total cost of your trip.

How do you promote and market to a public population who want more than a "maybe"?

 

[35B]

Again, similar to my posts about vintage cars vs steam locomotives. Football is the most popular sport in the UK, and is full of people cheering on their team at the top of their lungs. In my experience, behaviour of football fans is often much worse than the "veg" at diesel galas! It's only the same thing: what's wrong with people being enthusastic about something they love?

Nothing. And I feel just the same about the antics of football (or other sports) fans - I avoid them.