Change to EMR First Class - what will it mean?

[WesternLancer]

Thank you

Mark

Your main risk is over crowding on their ridiculously short five car trains.

 

[Dr Hoo]

Your main risk is over crowding on their ridiculously short five car trains.

Definitely. I’ve had to stand as far north as Derby when EMR has found itself taking ECML divertees during unplanned disruption or engineering works.

Any concept of seat reservations, First Class, refreshments or on-board ticket checks can go completely out of the window.

 

[sheff1]

. The new policy will give EMR something to point to explaining they were not entitled in the first place.

It would do if they defined what they mean by “shorter” and “longer”, but they choose not to so actually have nothing worthwhile to point to.

 

[BeijingDave]

It would do if they defined what they mean by “shorter” and “longer”, but they choose not to so actually have nothing worthwhile to point to.

Surely it will have to be eventually, or it will be challenged with the ASA or by a consumer rights' champion.

 

[Nova1]

Surely it will have to be eventually, or it will be challenged with the ASA or by a consumer rights' champion.

No because they say the offering is “complementary” and so there is no obligation for them to actually do it at all

 

[Tester]

No because they say the offering is “complementary” and so there is no obligation for them to actually do it at all

It isn't complimentary, because you can't have it without paying for it.

 

[sheff1]

No because they say the offering is “complementary” and so there is no obligation for them to actually do it at all

As you have put complementary in quotation marks I assume it is taken from an EMR communication, in which case maybe the reason they do not define shorter or longer is because they don't fully understand the meaning of words so drafting an unambiguous definition would be beyond them.

 

[43066]

As you have put complementary in quotation marks I assume it is taken from an EMR communication, in which case maybe the reason they do not define shorter or longer is because they don't fully understand the meaning of words so drafting an unambiguous definition would be beyond them.

An odd suggestion. It has been explained above why they don’t use times and will use journey pairings, which presumably will be listed somewhere.

It isn't complimentary, because you can't have it without paying for it.

The first class premium is to sit in the first class accommodation. The food etc. isn’t guaranteed to be available.

 

[styles]

This change may actually turn out to be a good thing.

If a passenger takes a journey which they believe to be 'long' but EMR believe to be 'short', and EMR don't provide either food service or compensation, they may bother to take it to a small claims court.

At which point we can have the discussion in court about the idea that you can occupy significant parts of your 1st class advertising talking about food and drink you'll provide, only to try and get out of your obligation to provide it by merely saying in small print that it's 'complimentary'.

 

[43066]

This change may actually turn out to be a good thing.

If a passenger takes a journey which they believe to be 'long' but EMR believe to be 'short', and EMR don't provide either food service or compensation, they may bother to take it to a small claims court.

At which point we can have the discussion in court about the idea that you can occupy significant parts of your 1st class advertising talking about food and drink you'll provide, only to try and get out of your obligation to provide it by merely saying in small print that it's 'complimentary'.

Not necessarily good from the point of view of the taxpayer. I also don’t think EMR are filling first class by “talking about the food and drink they provide” - they’re managing expectations downwards for shorter journeys. I’d also suggest very few people are buying EMR first class tickets just based on the food - it’ll be invariably cheaper to buy a standard ticket and a (usually better quality) sandwich from M&S at a station.

 

[DDB]

Is there a link to EMR's announcement?

 

[AndyW33]

This change may actually turn out to be a good thing.

If a passenger takes a journey which they believe to be 'long' but EMR believe to be 'short', and EMR don't provide either food service or compensation, they may bother to take it to a small claims court.

At which point we can have the discussion in court about the idea that you can occupy significant parts of your 1st class advertising talking about food and drink you'll provide, only to try and get out of your obligation to provide it by merely saying in small print that it's 'complimentary'.

I see your point, but in calling the food and drink "complimentary" while including it in advertising EMR are just copying what airlines have done for several decades. In that time I would have expected that cases would have reached courts that actually have power to set precedents. Small claims courts cannot themselves set precedents, they have to respect precedents set by higher courts but each small claims case stands alone and has no impact on subsequent small claims cases. I haven't found a successful higher court case against an airline in the UK over the food and drink offering. Now that could be because courts have rejected the plaintiff's arguments, or because nobody could find a lawyer who thought there was a viable case, or because the airline settled out of court to avoid setting a precedent.

 

[styles]

Is there a link to EMR's announcement?

It's detailed on their 1st class page with the same text: https://www.eastmidlandsrailway.co.uk/trains-stations/on-board-the-train/first-class

 

[DDB]

It's detailed on their 1st class page with the same text: https://www.eastmidlandsrailway.co.uk/trains-stations/on-board-the-train/first-class

Thanks so they do give a specific example of what counts as short. Derby-Sheffield. I have previously received the full service on that journey and I have specifically booked first class to get a small meal after work. Looks like I will be back to standard class with a visit to Derby station Greggs instead!

 

[styles]

Thanks so they do give a specific example of what counts as short. Derby-Sheffield. I have previously received the full service on that journey and I have specifically booked first class to get a small meal after work. Looks like I will be back to standard class with a visit to Derby station Greggs instead!

They do not, which is half the discussion in this thread

There's an authoritative-sounding suggestion that short is under 30 minutes and not to/from London: https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...-class-what-will-it-mean.291637/#post-7451261

But it's not publicly confirmed at least.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 8 Sep 2025 ==

Not necessarily good from the point of view of the taxpayer. I also don’t think EMR are filling first class by “talking about the food and drink they provide” - they’re managing expectations downwards for shorter journeys. I’d also suggest very few people are buying EMR first class tickets just based on the food - it’ll be invariably cheaper to buy a standard ticket and a (usually better quality) sandwich from M&S at a station.

Indeed not good for the taxpayer. Sadly the rail industry seems to enjoy depriving passengers of their consumer rights in the (founded) belief that many don't know their rights or give up when bounced around 3 different TOCs trying to claim delay repay, or denying any compensation for food not provided in 1st class despite their promo image for weekend upgrades being focussed around a free bacon butty, or saying well you claimed for a refund for your cancelled train so we can't compensate you for your ancillary costs because you should've claimed delay repay instead. They know that many passengers will give up, and they do. Yeah it's frustrating if money has to be spent arguing the toss in civil courts but there's an easy solution to that.

I agree that few people will choose 1st class upgrades solely based on the food offering, especially in the case of say EMR where the offering is not exactly Pullman dining. That doesn't change the fact that it is undeniably a factor for a lot of passengers. A passenger shouldn't expect to receive 100% of the difference between 1st and standard class back, but a proportion of it.

 

[station_road]

They do not, which is half the discussion in this thread

There's an authoritative-sounding suggestion that short is under 30 minutes and not to/from London: https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...-class-what-will-it-mean.291637/#post-7451261

But it's not publicly confirmed at least.

The page on the EMR website that you linked to does give Sheffield - Derby as a specific example of a short journey where the full service won't be provided

Shorter Journeys (e.g. Sheffield Station to Derby Station)

Seems reasonable enough to me, and no different to Avanti who don't provide a full service on journeys like Euston - Milton Keynes or Crewe - Manchester, but will give you a hot or cold drink

 

[styles]

The page on the EMR website that you linked to does give Sheffield - Derby as a specific example of a short journey where the full service won't be provided

Indeed, it would be helpful if they would be precise rather than a single example of an ambiguous definition though.

 

[duffield]

So as an exercise I've just looked at all the station pairs for Nottingham to London, and based on the reasonable assumption that any journey shorter or the same by *both* mileage and time compared to the Derby to Sheffield example will definitely get minimal catering I've worked out where the ambiguity lies.

Full catering:
Anything involving St. Pancras.

Minimal catering:
Any non-London journey *not* involving Market Harborough or Kettering (i.e any journeys between Leicester, Loughborough, East Midlands Parkway, Beeston and Nottingham), plus
Market Harborough to Leicester or Loughborough, and Kettering to Leicester

Ambiguous:
All journeys involving Market Harborough and Kettering not covered above,
Specifically Market Harborough to East Midlands Parkway, Beeston or Nottingham
and Kettering to Loughborough, East Midlands Parkway, Beeston or Nottingham

So 7/28 journey pairs are unresolved. Assuming that anything *longer* than Derby to Sheffield gets full catering resolves most of the remaining journeys (as full catering) but still leaves e.g. East Midlands Parkway to Market Harborough which is a minute longer but a mile shorter (probably falls on the minimal side though).


Maybe I'll do Sheffield to London in a bit.

EMR need to get their act together and produce a simple journey pairs table for each route showing catering level.

 

[deltic]

I would scrap all complementary offerings in first class and provide a better quality food/drink offering that people have to pay for. The only people that seem to travel in first because of the complimentary offering are those who aim to consume a greater value of food/drink than the difference in cost between first and standard.

 

[WesternLancer]

I would scrap all complementary offerings in first class and provide a better quality food/drink offering that people have to pay for. The only people that seem to travel in first because of the complimentary offering are those who aim to consume a greater value of food/drink than the difference in cost between first and standard.

I agree. I think EMR had it right actually in stagecoach days - free small snacks (drink, biscuits etc) but with a decent value hot food offer that you paid for if you wanted it, served on proper crockery. It was the correct balance IMHO.

 

[sheff1]

See they have now updated the page to give a couple of examples - a start at least but still no indication that a definitive list will appear.

I’d also suggest very few people are buying EMR first class tickets just based on the food - it’ll be invariably cheaper to buy a standard ticket and a (usually better quality) sandwich from M&S at a station.

It is not invariably cheaper, not at all unusual to find a first advance cheaper than one in standard.

Not all stations have an M&S either (although Sheffield does). The breakfast roll on the train is not the best you would ever get, but it’s not the worst either. If you have paid less than a standard ticket or a couple of pounds more, it certainly better value than buying a breakfast roll from anywhere on Sheffield station.

Some of the daytime sandwiches/wraps are reasonable quality.

I agree. I think EMR had it right actually in stagecoach days - free small snacks (drink, biscuits etc) but with a decent value hot food offer that you paid for if you wanted it, served on proper crockery. It was the correct balance IMHO.

I agree too, much better.

 

[Llandudno]

See they have now updated the page to give a couple of examples - a start at least but still no indication that a definitive list will appear.

It is not invariably cheaper, not at all unusual to find a first advance cheaper than one in standard.

Not all stations have an M&S either (although Sheffield does). The breakfast roll on the train is not the best you would ever get, but it’s not the worst either. If you have paid less than a standard ticket or a couple of pounds more, it certainly better value than buying a breakfast roll from anywhere on Sheffield station.

I agree too, much better.

Not so sure you would find a decent/better value bacon roll at Sheffield station as most catering outlets are SSP franchises.

Sheffield station is crying out for a Gregg’s like Derby has or Leeds is about to get!

 

[DerbySplitter]

Myself and the wife went first class to STP and back yesterday from Derby.

No freebies, drinks or otherwise, in the morning though we could pay for them as expected.

Yet on the journey back the trolley came around twice, very much first class specific, and they were dishing out drinks, snacks, biscuits and cake for free.

I wouldn't mind but we'd already bought cups of tea from Pret at STP thinking there was no service likely on a 7.00pm train home on a Sunday, letalone a load of freebies.

 

[LCC106]

Pretty sure there is no first class offering on a Sunday as stated on their website (not sure if customer hosts work on Sundays) so if the Train Manager came around with a trolley that’s a bonus but discretionary, possibly based on passenger numbers, carrying out other duties etc.

 

[LowLevel]

The Sunday service isn't advertised as until comparatively recently on a Sunday the Rail Gourmet hosts used the buffet to park their trolley for a static service and first class passengers could go and get hot drinks from them.

The EMR hosts now do work Sundays, but having not done so for years I believe it is at the host's discretion. If they are there they will do a service.

If not, the train manager might hand out some water or make drinks or they might not.

There are also more double sets on a Sunday so coverage is even more patchy.

To avoid constant complaints about patchy service it therefore isn't advertised. I assume it isn't currently possible to guarantee a consistent Sunday catering service but I have heard mutterings previously.

 

[43066]

It is not invariably cheaper, not at all unusual to find a first advance cheaper than one in standard.

This perhaps points to part of the issue that EMR is looking to address: first class is regularly busy, so is it really right that people can buy such cheap tickets and benefit from free catering? There has long been a suspicion that it’s a little too cheap.

Not all stations have an M&S either (although Sheffield does). The breakfast roll on the train is not the best you would ever get, but it’s not the worst either. If you have paid less than a standard ticket or a couple of pounds more, it certainly better value than buying a breakfast roll from anywhere on Sheffield station.

If you’ve paid less than the price of a standard ticket, how is it justifiable to get free catering in first class on trains that are regularly severely overcrowded. First class is surely meant to be a premium offering to extract revenue, not a way for people to get fed cheaply.

Some of the daytime sandwiches/wraps are reasonable quality.

They vary but I would often turn them down when offered them for free. I wouldn’t personally view them as worth paying any premium over standard - the main benefit is the seating and ambience.

I agree too, much better.

But they carry far more passengers now.

 

[Cell2025]

Perhaps the Transport for Wales model is the future of First Class?

Have a lower base cost for a first class upgrade (similar to that of a distanced based weekend) which would grant you the more spacious accomodation, complimentary hot drinks, soft drinks and biscuits. Great for those travelling short distances, those that are cost conscious or those who have recently had a full meal prior to the journey.

For a fixed additional charge on top of the upgrade, offer enhanced catering such as the aforementioned Bacon roll, Sandwiches, and Alcohol, or small meals similar to TPE and the other TOC's utilising the small micro-ovens of the Hitachi fleet.

As an example:
£15 for first class
£10 for Enhanced catering and alcohol
£25 total.

Compared to TfW's:
£20 - seat upgrade
£24 - 2 Course meal (£27 3 course)
£44 total

An odd suggestion. It has been explained above why they don’t use times and will use journey pairings, which presumably will be listed somewhere.



The first class premium is to sit in the first class accommodation. The food etc. isn’t guaranteed to be available.

And therein lies the problem, or at least one problem. By charging separately for the food and drink you essentially create a contract between TOC and the consumer, placing an obligation ton the TOC to provide exactly what has been purchased. As per the highlighted quote it's not at all rare for food and drink to be unavailable to anyone let alone first class due to anything from lack of staff to equipment failure.

By keeping it all nebulous and 'conditional' so long as the first class seat is provided it allows the TOC to get away with murder by hiding behind these conditions. Charging for specific elements creates an obligation which would, at the very least, create issues in relation to refunds. After all, what if you paid for a meal and drinks but only got the drink due to 'operational' reasons? Or is is the case that you only pay when you get on the train like any normal 'buffet'? If so then that would diminish any problems of expectation because you're 'paying as you go' rather than in advance.

 

[Mag_seven]

Can I take this opportunity to remind posters that if they want to discuss alternatives to the current catering arrangements on EMR (or on any other TOC for that matter) then they are welcome to start a new thread in the Speculative Ideas section of the forum.

 

[Butts]

What sort of Alcohol is included in 1st Class Freebies ?

 

[Tester]

What sort of Alcohol is included in 1st Class Freebies ?

Guess