"Score" re foreign countries visited -- fair or unfair?

[Calthrop]

Post prompted partly by a thread on the Forums a number of years back, inviting people to list the countries which they had visited "outside the UK"; partly by a recent conversation with my brother. He is a pretty competitive guy: on hearing some widely-travelled bod (as it happened, "in passing" on a TV programme) claiming to have visited fifty foreign lands; he experienced the urge to see whether he could equal or surpass this person's total re same. He worked out that he had clocked up very nearly fifty, but not quite. Was racking his brains as to how he could, "best and easiest", make up the fifty. In our talking about this matter, it emerged that he counts for his total (actual or potential), "everything in our islands, that isn't England": viz. Scotland, Wales, the Channel Islands, and the Republic of Ireland (all of which he has visited); and Northern Ireland, and the Isle of Man (which he hasn't).

Leaving aside the strict "UK factor" as above, per the thread from times past; it occurs to me (not that it distresses or bothers me; I'm anyway, a pretty non-competitive soul) that in totting-up-of-totals of this kind -- if one lives in England, Scotland or Wales: counting the other two as "foreign / abroad", would seem to me to at least verge on cheating. Concerning other parts of our-island-group-plus, there is perhaps more in the line of grey areas -- Man and the Channel Islands are admittedly Crown Dependencies, not parts of the UK. Northern Ireland might be reckoned, in this connection, not quite like anywhere else. For my personal total of abroad-places visited (numbers-wise, put in the shade by that of my brother), I count re our islands: just the Republic of Ireland. I consider N.I. (where I have been) as part of the UK, so not "foreign"; and my personal sentiment vis-a-vis Man and the C.I., is that reckoning them "foreign", smacks rather of desperate trying-too-hard in this endeavour. (Just "my feelings re me" -- others with different rules, have every right to same.)

Incidentally, my brother -- after talking of notions of his making as soon as possible, a quick trip to the Isle of Man to "tick it off" and get his fifty (he is, by the way, the very reverse of a railway enthusiast !) -- recollected another country he'd visited, but had temporarily forgotten about: St. Kitts, in the West Indies. With the magic number thus achieved, I think he has scrapped the "Man plan".

Am wondering whether anyone here has comments or opinions to offer, on this admittedly far from earth-shaking source of possible dissention / debate...

 

[Tester]

Post prompted partly by a thread on the Forums a number of years back, inviting people to list the countries which they had visited "outside the UK"; partly by a recent conversation with my brother. He is a pretty competitive guy: on hearing some widely-travelled bod (as it happened, "in passing" on a TV programme) claiming to have visited fifty foreign lands; he experienced the urge to see whether he could equal or surpass this person's total re same. He worked out that he had clocked up very nearly fifty, but not quite. Was racking his brains as to how he could, "best and easiest", make up the fifty. In our talking about this matter, it emerged that he counts for his total (actual or potential), "everything in our islands, that isn't England": viz. Scotland, Wales, the Channel Islands, and the Republic of Ireland (all of which he has visited); and Northern Ireland, and the Isle of Man (which he hasn't).

Leaving aside the strict "UK factor" as above, per the thread from times past; it occurs to me (not that it distresses or bothers me; I'm anyway, a pretty non-competitive soul) that in totting-up-of-totals of this kind -- if one lives in England, Scotland or Wales: counting the other two as "foreign / abroad", would seem to me to at least verge on cheating. Concerning other parts of our-island-group-plus, there is perhaps more in the line of grey areas -- Man and the Channel Islands are admittedly Crown Dependencies, not parts of the UK. Northern Ireland might be reckoned, in this connection, not quite like anywhere else. For my personal total of abroad-places visited (numbers-wise, put in the shade by that of my brother), I count re our islands: just the Republic of Ireland. I consider N.I. (where I have been) as part of the UK, so not "foreign"; and my personal sentiment vis-a-vis Man and the C.I., is that reckoning them "foreign", smacks rather of desperate trying-too-hard in this endeavour. (Just "my feelings re me" -- others with different rules, have every right to same.)

Incidentally, my brother -- after talking of notions of his making as soon as possible, a quick trip to the Isle of Man to "tick it off" and get his fifty (he is, by the way, the very reverse of a railway enthusiast !) -- recollected another country he'd visited, but had temporarily forgotten about: St. Kitts, in the West Indies. With the magic number thus achieved, I think he has scrapped the "Man plan".

Am wondering whether anyone here has comments or opinions to offer, on this admittedly far from earth-shaking source of possible dissention / debate...

A friend, who was very much into this, ticked off Indonesia by taking a ferry from Singapore to some obscure Indonesian island. Yes he got an Indonesian passport stamp, but.....

I ribbed him mercilessly.

 

[styles]

I defer to CGP Grey to explain the agreed definition (or lack thereof) of a country:

# How Many Countries are There?
0:01
How many countries are there?
0:02
Easy: just grab a map and start counting, yes?
0:04
No.
0:05
Not all maps are created equal -- borders will differ depending on who you got the map
0:08
from.
0:09
So if individuals disagree, then surely a committee will save the day.
0:12
Go to the United Nations, find the room where countries sit -- each with a little name tag
0:15
-- start counting and get an answer.
0:17
Now of course, countries come and countries go, but at the time this video was made the
0:21
answer is 193.
0:23
Fastest video ever, right?
0:24
Except: you know this isn't over.
0:26
The United Nations list is less a complete class roster than a club membership that doesn't
0:29
include everyone.
0:30
Take, Vatican City who is a country but is too cool for school when it comes to being
0:34
a member of the United Nations.
0:35
And while Vatican City's exact situation is… complicated he's straightforward compared
0:39
to other non-United Nations countries… or places -- the terminology is going to have
0:43
a be a bit, unclear here.
0:45
Take Kosovo, who want's to join the UN club, but membership requires none of these five
0:49
countries to reject you.
0:50
And while the United States, The United Kingdom and France think Kosovo is a country, Russia
0:54
and China think she's just a rebellious part of Serbia and so veto her membership.
0:58
As for everyone else, just over half recognize Kosovo as independent and Kosovo, adorably,
1:02
has a website where she thanks each one in their own language.
1:05
But Kosovo, is not there only other…
1:07
place that wants to be considered a real country.
1:09
There's Transnistria, Nagorno-Karabakh Republic, Abkhazia, and South Ossetia.
1:13
Which might, or might not, be part of Moldova, Azerbaijan or Georgia depending on who you
1:17
ask.
1:18
Two of these…
1:19
countries, no UN members recognize as countries, and other two have only five supporters.
1:23
Though all four of these...
1:25
places recognize each other as countries.
1:27
There's also The Sahrawi Arab Democratic Republic and Northern Cyprus each with their own supporters.
1:32
At this point you might be thinking 'OK, srsly, what's the deal?
1:35
I don't care who these guys think are countries, are these places countries or not?'
1:39
If I fly to one for a Holliday, will it *look* like a country when I get there?
1:43
The answer is, 'maybe'.
1:45
These...
1:46
countries are all autonomous, to some extent, with governments that issue passports though
1:49
these may be of rather limited use and depending on which ones you're visiting they may have
1:53
more or less control of the territory they claim as theirs.
1:57
You won't always find a clear border.
1:59
What makes many of these places... fuzzy is they're *usually* born of conflict in the
2:03
recent-ish past.
2:04
That answer is probably less helpful than you want so think of it like this: while The
2:08
United States is clearly a country now, in 1776, not so much.
2:12
Then she was just an idea in minds of rebel scum.
2:14
She wasn't recognized as a country instantly and without diplomatic effort to change that
2:18
Young America would never have made it on her own.
2:21
Much like what happened a century later when she got her own rebel who, unlike elder sister,
2:25
failed in the diplomacy department so… yeah.
2:28
And so it goes today with many of the maybe countries in the world.
2:31
Maybe they're future United States and maybe they're future Confederacies -- but in the
2:34
moment it's hard to say -- because these things can take decades to settle.
2:38
By the way, these maybe-countries are super awkward for countries to deal with.
2:42
While your tiny island nation might not want to get involved in the affairs of distant
2:45
lands you still have to decide to send a diplomat, or not -- meaning even inaction forces you
2:49
to pick a side in *every territorial skirmish in the world*.
2:52
A notably awkward case being: Taiwan…
2:54
errr, sorry, Chinese Taipei which is *totally* part of China and no one would ever think
3:00
otherwise…
3:01
Is China gone?
3:02
OK: by any reasonable definition, Taiwan is a separate country and has been for years,
3:07
but China won't let go and insists you call her Chinese Taipei and don't forget who makes
3:11
all your clothing and utensils and TVs and phones and computers and everything.
3:14
So almost all countries -- including the mighty United States -- plays along even though they
3:18
unofficially acknowledge Taiwan's independence and do things that wouldn't make any senses
3:21
otherwise -- like sending aircraft carriers to protect one part of China from another
3:25
part of China.
3:27
Thus the innocent question 'how many countries?'
3:28
has led us straight to a big 'World War III: Press Here to Start' button which is getting
3:32
depressing so lets move on to...
3:34
Ohhhh, right.
3:35
:igh::
3:36
No more politics: on to higher ideas: The Olympics.
3:41
Surely from their perch among the gods they have a disinterested view of the countries
3:45
below.
3:46
"How many are there, Olympics?"
3:47
Two hundred and four?
3:48
Huh.
3:49
So Olympics is a bit…
3:50
special.
3:51
She defines Puerto Rico as a 'country' even though it's unambiguously part of the United
3:54
States as well as Bermuda and Aruba which are connected to the UK and The Netherlands
3:58
along with a bunch of other places that are happy to play in her Olympic Games as Nations
4:02
but make no claims to independence.
4:04
Presumably, Olympics includes these to bump up the number so she can say 'more than 200
4:08
countries compete!'
4:09
Though even her inflated list doesn't include Vatican City -- because, given his demographics,
4:13
divine intervention would be required to take home a gold.
4:16
And Vatican City brings us right back to the core of the difficulty with this question:
4:19
a consistent definition of 'country' is impossible because your checklist needs to both include
4:24
Vatican City the least country-like country that's still a country -- and that also exclude
4:28
the Anti-Vatican City: Hong Kong: -- the most country-like country that isn't.
4:33
Also don't forget from previous episodes the seemingly endless territories which look and
4:37
act like independent countries, but just sort of aren't.
4:40
And this isn't even brining up the various Nutters who plant a flag on an Island, or
4:43
an oil rig, start printing currency on their fancy inkjet and declare Deludtopia a new
4:48
nation.
4:49
So with no checklist to follow where does that leave us?
4:51
The best answer to the question 'how many countries' for the forceable future is probably
4:54
to say 'around 200' and leave it at that.
4:57
An answer with more significant figures implies more agreement than there really is -- because
5:02
ultimately, what makes a country a country is if other countries think that country is
5:07
a country.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 7 Sep 2025 ==

A friend, who was very much into this, ticked off Indonesia by taking a ferry from Singapore to some obscure Indonesian island. Yes he got an Indonesian passport stamp, but.....

I ribbed him mercilessly.

I do a lot of mountaineering and must admit I've never really seen the attraction of e.g. Munro bagging. I've known people to get totally immersed in it and are on their 6th or 7th round of the Munros, often visiting the peak for a matter of seconds before heading back down. Creating routes which aim to join together lots of Munros regardless of the best views, etc. Each to their own though, and I'm sure if I end up naturally having bagged say 250 Munros, I may end up taking an interest in ticking off the rest of the list!

 

[frankmoh]

I stopped at a French service station for 20 minutes. I don't think it counts, nor does staying exclusively on motorways to get to another country. (in my case it was Belgium)

 

[stadler]

England / Wales / Scotland / Northern Ireland are simply provinces or states of the UK. I would count them all as one country as the UK. People might call them countries but they are not. They are no different to California or Florida or Texas (part of USA) or Alberta or Manitoba or Saskatchewan (part of Canada) or New South Wales or Queensland or Victoria (part of Australia) etc. In fact England / Wales / Scotland / Northern Ireland have even less autonomy and self governance than those examples in other countries.

Isle Of Man / Guernsey / Jersey / Gibraltar are simply autonomous regions of the UK. I would still consider these as part of the UK. They are no different to Greenland or Faroe Islands (part of Denmark) or Aland Islands (part of Finland) or Cook Islands or Niue or Tokelau (part of New Zealand) etc. They are simply autonomous regions of our country rather than their own independent countries.

So i would count England / Wales / Scotland / Northern Ireland / Isle Of Man / Guernsey / Jersey / Gibraltar (and our other further away autonomous territories like Ascension / Bermuda / British Virgin Islands / Cayman Islands / Montserrat / Pitcairn Islands / Saint Helena / Tristan Da Cunha / Turks & Caicos Islands etc) all as the same country.

 

[alistairlees]

England / Wales / Scotland / Northern Ireland are simply provinces or states of the UK. I would count them all as one country as the UK. People might call them countries but they are not. They are no different to California or Florida or Texas (part of USA) or Alberta or Manitoba or Saskatchewan (part of Canada) or New South Wales or Queensland or Victoria (part of Australia) etc. In fact England / Wales / Scotland / Northern Ireland have even less autonomy and self governance than those examples in other countries.

Isle Of Man / Guernsey / Jersey / Gibraltar are simply autonomous regions of the UK. I would still consider these as part of the UK. They are no different to Greenland or Faroe Islands (part of Denmark) or Aland Islands (part of Finland) or Cook Islands or Niue or Tokelau (part of New Zealand) etc. They are simply autonomous regions of our country rather than their own independent countries.

So i would count England / Wales / Scotland / Northern Ireland / Isle Of Man / Guernsey / Jersey / Gibraltar (and our other further away autonomous territories like Ascension / Bermuda / British Virgin Islands / Cayman Islands / Montserrat / Pitcairn Islands / Saint Helena / Tristan Da Cunha / Turks & Caicos Islands etc) all as the same country.

Pretty much everything in this post is wrong. Keep posting!

 

[stadler]

Pretty much everything in this post is wrong. Keep posting!

What is wrong about it? If you think it is wrong then explain?

 

[Magdalia]

The full name of the UK is United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.

England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland are all part of the UK.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 7 Sep 2025 ==

California or Florida or Texas (part of USA)

USA is United States of America. I do know someone who is close to ticking off all 50 of them.

 

[AlterEgo]

What is wrong about it? If you think it is wrong then explain?

We can all look at Wikipedia just to see it's factually wrong. Almost everything in the post is factually wrong and it's tedious to point it all out.

 

[Darandio]

What is wrong about it? If you think it is wrong then explain?

You've cited places such as Greenland, Faroe Islands, Bermuda, Montserrat plus many more and said they aren't countries. What exactly do you need explained?

 

[IanXC]

I work to this listing:

ISO 3166-1 - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Its worth pointing out that Guernsey and Jersey are very definitely not part of the UK - they were governed by what is todays Crown before the Norman invasion, they are in fact the last part of the Duchy of Normandy!

 

[stadler]

I think it gets more complex when different people have different definitions of what they consider a country.

The list that i would go by when deciding to count which countries i have been to is 203 countries:

Abkhazia
Afghanistan
Albania
Algeria
Andorra
Angola
Antigua & Barbuda
Argentina
Armenia
Australia
Austria
Azerbaijan
Bahamas
Bahrain
Bangladesh
Barbados
Belarus
Belgium
Belize
Benin
Bhutan
Bolivia
Bosnia & Herzegovina
Botswana
Brazil
Brunei
Bulgaria
Burkina Faso
Burundi
Cambodia
Cameroon
Canada
Cape Verde
Central African Republic
Chad
Chile
China
Colombia
Comoros
Congo (Brazzaville)
Congo (Kinshasa)
Costa Rica
Croatia
Cuba
Cyprus
Czech Republic
Denmark
Djibouti
Dominica
Dominican Republic
East Timor
Ecuador
Egypt
El Salvador
Equatorial Guinea
Eritrea
Estonia
Ethiopia
Fiji
Finland
France
Gabon
Gambia
Georgia
Germany
Ghana
Greece
Grenada
Guatemala
Guinea
Guinea Bissua
Guyana
Haiti
Honduras
Hungary
Iceland
India
Indonesia
Iran
Iraq
Ireland
Israel
Italy
Ivory Coast
Jamaica
Japan
Jordan
Kazakhstan
Kenya
Kiribati
Kosovo
Kuwait
Kyrgyzstan
Laos
Latvia
Lebanon
Lesotho
Liberia
Libya
Liechtenstein
Lithuania
Luxembourg
Macedonia
Madagascar
Malawi
Malaysia
Maldives
Mali
Malta
Marshall Islands
Mauritania
Mauritius
Mexico
Micronesia
Moldova
Monaco
Mongolia
Montenegro
Morocco
Mozambique
Myanmar
Namibia
Nauru
Nepal
Netherlands
New Zealand
Nicaragua
Niger
Nigeria
North Korea
Northern Cyprus
Norway
Oman
Pakistan
Palau
Palestine
Panama
Papua New Guinea
Paraguay
Peru
Philippines
Poland
Portugal
Qatar
Romania
Russia
Rwanda
Saint Kitts & Nevis
Saint Lucia
Saint Vincent & The Grenadines
Samoa
San Marino
Sao Tome & Principe
Saudi Arabia
Senegal
Serbia
Seychelles
Sierra Leone
Singapore
Slovakia
Slovenia
Solomon Islands
Somalia
Somaliland
South Africa
South Korea
South Ossetia
South Sudan
Spain
Sri Lanka
Sudan
Suriname
Swaziland
Sweden
Switzerland
Syria
Taiwan
Tajikistan
Tanzania
Thailand
Togo
Tonga
Transnistria
Trinidad & Tobago
Tunisia
Turkey
Turkmenistan
Tuvalu
Uganda
Ukraine
United Arab Emirates
United Kingdom
United States Of America
Uruguay
Uzbekistan
Vanuatu
Vatican City
Venezuela
Vietnam
Western Sahara
Yemen
Zambia
Zimbabwe

This includes 189 countries which are undisputed and every country recognises them and agrees that these are countries:

Afghanistan
Albania
Algeria
Andorra
Angola
Antigua & Barbuda
Argentina
Armenia
Australia
Austria
Azerbaijan
Bahamas
Bahrain
Bangladesh
Barbados
Belarus
Belgium
Belize
Benin
Bhutan
Bolivia
Bosnia & Herzegovina
Botswana
Brazil
Brunei
Bulgaria
Burkina Faso
Burundi
Cambodia
Cameroon
Canada
Cape Verde
Central African Republic
Chad
Chile
Colombia
Comoros
Congo (Brazzaville)
Congo (Kinshasa)
Costa Rica
Croatia
Cuba
Czech Republic
Denmark
Djibouti
Dominica
Dominican Republic
East Timor
Ecuador
Egypt
El Salvador
Equatorial Guinea
Eritrea
Estonia
Ethiopia
Fiji
Finland
France
Gabon
Gambia
Georgia
Germany
Ghana
Greece
Grenada
Guatemala
Guinea
Guinea Bissua
Guyana
Haiti
Honduras
Hungary
Iceland
India
Indonesia
Iran
Iraq
Ireland
Italy
Ivory Coast
Jamaica
Japan
Jordan
Kazakhstan
Kenya
Kiribati
Kuwait
Kyrgyzstan
Laos
Latvia
Lebanon
Lesotho
Liberia
Libya
Liechtenstein
Lithuania
Luxembourg
Macedonia
Madagascar
Malawi
Malaysia
Maldives
Mali
Malta
Marshall Islands
Mauritania
Mauritius
Mexico
Micronesia
Moldova
Monaco
Mongolia
Montenegro
Morocco
Mozambique
Myanmar
Namibia
Nauru
Nepal
Netherlands
New Zealand
Nicaragua
Niger
Nigeria
Norway
Oman
Pakistan
Palau
Panama
Papua New Guinea
Paraguay
Peru
Philippines
Poland
Portugal
Qatar
Romania
Russia
Rwanda
Saint Kitts & Nevis
Saint Lucia
Saint Vincent & The Grenadines
Samoa
San Marino
Sao Tome & Principe
Saudi Arabia
Senegal
Serbia
Seychelles
Sierra Leone
Singapore
Slovakia
Slovenia
Solomon Islands
Somalia
South Africa
South Sudan
Spain
Sri Lanka
Sudan
Suriname
Swaziland
Sweden
Switzerland
Syria
Tajikistan
Tanzania
Thailand
Togo
Tonga
Trinidad & Tobago
Tunisia
Turkey
Turkmenistan
Tuvalu
Uganda
Ukraine
United Arab Emirates
United Kingdom
United States Of America
Uruguay
Uzbekistan
Vanuatu
Vatican City
Venezuela
Vietnam
Yemen
Zambia
Zimbabwe

Then there are another 14 countries which are not fully recognised but yet they still fully function as an independent country:

Abkhazia
China
Cyprus
Israel
Kosovo
North Korea
Northern Cyprus
Palestine
Somaliland
South Korea
South Ossetia
Taiwan
Transnistria
Western Sahara

Most of these places function as a country so i think they could all be called countries regardless of whether you agree or disagree with the politics of them being a country. I would say even places like Abkhazia and South Ossetia are most definitely countries as they fully function as independent countries and have full control over all matters in their country. They might have limited international recognition but they still function as a country. I prefer to go by the real situation of whether somewhere functions as a country rather than the politics of if it is widely recognised by other countries.

I would not count any of these autonomous and self governing places as countries as they do not have full independence:

• England, Wales, Scotland, Northern Ireland, Isle Of Man, Jersey, Guernsey, Alderney, Akrotiri & Dhekelia, Anguilla, Ascension, Bermuda, British Antarctic Territory, British Indian Ocean Territory, British Virgin Islands, Cayman Islands, Falkland Islands, Gibraltar, Montserrat, Pitcairn Islands, Saint Helena, South Georgia & The South Sandwich Islands, Tristan Da Cunha, Turks & Caicos Islands, - I count these as part of the UK.

• American Samoa, Guam, Northern Mariana Islands, Puerto Rico, US Virgin Islands, - I count these as part of the USA.

• French Guiana, French Polynesia, French Southern & Antarctic Lands, Guadeloupe, Martinique, Mayotte, New Caledonia, Reunion, Saint Barthelemy, Saint Martin, Saint Pierre & Miquelon, Wallis & Futuna, - I count these as part of France.

• Aruba, Bonaire, Curacao, Saba, Sint Eustatius, Sint Maarten, - I count these as part of the Netherlands.

• Ashmore & Cartier Islands, Australian Antarctic Territory, Christmas Island, Cocos (Keeling) Islands, Coral Sea Islands, Heard Island & Mcdonald Islands, Lord Howe Island, Macquarie Island, Norfolk Island, - I count these as part of Australia.

• Cook Islands, Niue, Ross Dependency, Tokelau, - I count these as part of New Zealand.

• Faroe Islands, Greenland, - I count these as part of Denmark.

• Aland Islands, - I count this as part of Finland.

• Hong Kong, Macau, - I count these as part of China.

• Bouvet Island, Jan Mayen, Peter I Island, Queen Maud Land, Svalbard, - I count these as part of Norway.

• Azores, Madeira, - I count these as part of Portugal.

• Canary Islands, Ceuta, Melilla, - I count these as part of Spain.

• Easter Island, - I count this as part of Chile.

Yes they might have a large amount of autonomy and self governance but they are all still owned by another country. They have not achieved full independence. So i am not sure how you could call them soverign countries. None of them (with the two exceptions of Hong Kong and Macau oddly) even have their own citizenship. For example people in Guernsey / Jersey / Isle Of Man etc are just British citizens. They might have different passport designs (and different residency rights) but their citizenship is the same. The same goes for Faroe Island and Greenland and all these other places.

If you are saying that Guernsey / Jersey / Isle Of Man etc are not part of the UK then what country are they part of. They are not independent soverign countries so they have to still be part of the UK even if they have a great deal of autonomy.

There is also the Soverign Millitary Order Of Malta which laughably actually has some international recognition as a country without having any land. But i consider that more of comedy country like Sealand and similar places.

But i admit it is a rather complex question when different people have different definitions of a country.

 

[LUL1970]

Not definative countries as such but I have seen football in 66 'countries' recognised by FIFA. England, Scotland, Wales, N Ireland & Faroe Islands count. Jersey, Guernsey & IoM do not.

 

[zero]

I think everyone can devise their own rules, just like we do for various railway-related things we want to accomplish. However, people can only compare their "country counts" if they are working to similar rules.

In my life I have spent a total of about 5 days in Luxembourg and I believe I can say that I have made a relatively comprehensive visit to that country. I also have spent a total of about 5 days in the USA and it's nowhere near the same.

Although this number is meaningless to me, I have been to 61 territories on the ISO 3166-1 list, but have been forced to state it when "comparing counts" with people.

I have a friend who says they have been to 80 countries but they have a penchant for taking obscure airlines. In about 30 of those countries they never left the airport (even if they passed through immigration), and in another 10 or so they spent one night in an international "cookie-cutter" chain hotel before going back to the airport.

My rules for a country counting are:
1) visit the capital city and, if it's not the largest or most important city, also visit that/those city/ies
1a) visit a government institution
1b) visit a residential neighbourhood
2) use as many forms of public transport as practical
3) use the local currency, at least in a situation where (some) people use cash in daily life
4) attempt to speak the local language to people who wouldn't ordinarily be expected to speak English in daily life (unless English is a language of daily life)

Given the complexity around British territories, I am separately attempting to visit every British territory under similar rules.

 

[etr221]

I think it gets more complex when different people have different definitions of what they consider a country.

<snip>
Yes they might have a large amount of autonomy and self governance but they are all still owned by another country. They have not achieved full independence. So i am not sure how you could call them soverign countries. None of them (with the two exceptions of Hong Kong and Macau oddly) even have their own citizenship. For example people in Guernsey / Jersey / Isle Of Man etc are just British citizens. They might have different passport designs (and different residency rights) but their citizenship is the same. The same goes for Faroe Island and Greenland and all these other places.

If you are saying that Guernsey / Jersey / Isle Of Man etc are not part of the UK then what country are they part of. They are not independent soverign countries so they have to still be part of the UK even if they have a great deal of autonomy.

They are separate non-sovereign states/countries - the remnants of the imperial/colonial era/system. Neither the the British Crown Dependencies (Channel Islands and Isle of Man) nor British Overseas Territories are parts of the UK. My understanding is that they have their own immigration systems, and that (as a British/UK citizen or resident) I do not have an automatic right of entry, and they could deny it, even if normally they would not.

Perhaps that is how countries can/should be distinguished - that there is a frontier post (even if only notional) where a border guard can say 'no entry'.

I think everyone can devise their own rules, just like we do for various railway-related things we want to accomplish. However, people can only compare their "country counts" if they are working to similar rules.

I would agree - there comes a point where there isn't universal agreement over whether somewhere is a separate country. But that in ISO 3166-1, or at https://statoids.com/wab.html (based on ISO 3166, but see its footnotes) are probably as good as can easily be found.

 

[zero]

Perhaps that is how countries can/should be distinguished - that there is a frontier post (even if only notional) where a border guard can say 'no entry'.

Then during COVID there might have been thousands of countries!

 

[Starmill]

Isle Of Man / Guernsey / Jersey / Gibraltar are simply autonomous regions of the UK. I would still consider these as part of the UK. They are no different to Greenland or Faroe Islands (part of Denmark) or Aland Islands (part of Finland) or Cook Islands or Niue or Tokelau (part of New Zealand) etc. They are simply autonomous regions of our country rather than their own independent countries.

You try saying that in Douglas and we'll see how well you get on eh!

 

[takno]

They are separate non-sovereign states/countries - the remnants of the imperial/colonial era/system. Neither the the British Crown Dependencies (Channel Islands and Isle of Man) nor British Overseas Territories are parts of the UK. My understanding is that they have their own immigration systems, and that (as a British/UK citizen or resident) I do not have an automatic right of entry, and they could deny it, even if normally they would not.

Perhaps that is how countries can/should be distinguished - that there is a frontier post (even if only notional) where a border guard can say 'no entry'.


I would agree - there comes a point where there isn't universal agreement over whether somewhere is a separate country. But that in ISO 3166-1, or at https://statoids.com/wab.html (based on ISO 3166, but see its footnotes) are probably as good as can easily be found.

That list, aside from being more than 10 years old and having a weird bible quote at the bottom, doesn't include Kosovo, which has all the features of an independent country apart from a formal ISO code.

 

[Lampshade]

Deleted.

 

[Starmill]

Perhaps that is how countries can/should be distinguished - that there is a frontier post (even if only notional) where a border guard can say 'no entry'.

Wouldn't that make every country in Schengen one country?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 8 Sep 2025 ==

They are separate non-sovereign states/countries - the remnants of the imperial/colonial era/system. Neither the the British Crown Dependencies (Channel Islands and Isle of Man) nor British Overseas Territories are parts of the UK. My understanding is that they have their own immigration systems, and that (as a British/UK citizen or resident) I do not have an automatic right of entry, and they could deny it, even if normally they would not.

They may have the right to set their own entry conditions yes. However while they are part of the Common Travel Area they can't refuse to admit British or Irish citizens. The Common Travel Area doesn't apply to third country citizens.

 

[Iskra]

I use an App called ‘Been’ to log my countries visited. It helps with keeping things official. So for example, I have been to Turks & Caicos, but this doesn’t count as it’s a British Overseas Territory.

I am thus on 34 visited.

Another grey area, is whether transiting (for example on a sleeper train at night, or at an airport) or if a very short visit really counts as a visit.

 

[takno]

I use an App called ‘Been’ to log my countries visited. It helps with keeping things official. So for example, I have been to Turks & Caicos, but this doesn’t count as it’s a British Overseas Territory.

I am thus on 34 visited.

Another grey area, is whether transiting (for example on a sleeper train at night, or at an airport) or if a very short visit really counts as a visit.

My rules are that it has to be an overnight stay unless the country is the size of Luxembourg or smaller.

In terms of it being a country, I'm counting Vatican City. I'm also counting Kosovo because if you aren't on the ISO committee that isn't even controversial. I'm not counting UK constituent parts, or the channel islands or Gibraltar, or Cueta which is even more definitively part of Spain. That puts me on 36.

If I get round to visiting the Faroes or Greenland I'm definitely also counting those, although I wouldn't count Svalbard or Bornholm. At the end of the day it's difficult to draw equivalences in different countries political structures, so you're best to draw the lines where you fancy. I'm starting to think that counting regions would be more fun anyway

 

[m0ffy]

Wouldn't that make every country in Schengen one country?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 8 Sep 2025 ==


They may have the right to set their own entry conditions yes. However while they are part of the Common Travel Area they can't refuse to admit British or Irish citizens. The Common Travel Area doesn't apply to third country citizens.

Not entirely true. Irish citizens subject to deportation orders and travel bans from HMG are inadmissible to the UK.

 

[A S Leib]

My rules for a country counting are:
1) visit the capital city and, if it's not the largest or most important city, also visit that/those city/ies
1a) visit a government institution
1b) visit a residential neighbourhood
2) use as many forms of public transport as practical
3) use the local currency, at least in a situation where (some) people use cash in daily life
4) attempt to speak the local language to people who wouldn't ordinarily be expected to speak English in daily life (unless English is a language of daily life)

To each their own, but, as much as I dislike people saying that London isn't properly British, I think it's atypical enough of the UK that somebody who's been to e.g. Southampton, Cardiff and Antrim but not London can easily count themselves as having visited the UK.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Isle of Man resident here.

The constitutional situation with the Isle of Man is an interesting one.

The Isle of Man is British because the British monarch purchased the feudal rights to the island in 1765 for £70,000. The King is the Lord of Mann, our Head of State.

British nationality law is a mess, a relic of colonial times. Not all British nationals are allowed to live in the UK. The Isle of Man and the Channel Islands are, under UK legislation, treated as being part of the UK for nationality and citizenship rights and therefore nationals of the Isle of Man and Channel Islands are allowed to live in the UK (and vice versa). The UK could remove this right at any time if they wished to. They probably won't, but they could.

But the Isle of Man is not part of the UK. Separate passports, separate immigration rules (whilst obviously our immigration rules are closely aligned to the UK, they are not identical), entirely separate taxation systems, separate healthcare systems, separate criminal legislation, even a slightly different judicial system. UK nationals need a work permit to work here. Whilst the Isle of Man is in a customs union with the UK, the Channel Islands are not.

Constitutionally there's not actually that much difference between the Isle of Man and somewhere like Bermuda. I think anyone travelling would put Bermuda down as a separate country.

 

[Paul AC]

My list of countries visited is about 50 (I haven't added them up recently) but what I can add to that is that I have travelled by train in all of them.

The only slightly dodgy point to add to that is that I have visited Gibraltar, which as a British Overseas Territory I don't count as a separate country from the UK; it has no railways, but I did arrive at Algeciras by train, get the bus to La Linea, walk across the border, then fly to Manchester.

 

[Starmill]

Not entirely true. Irish citizens subject to deportation orders and travel bans from HMG are inadmissible to the UK.

Maybe they are on paper but in that case you'd not expect them to be free to go about their business in Ireland either given the data sharing links between police forces in Britain and Ireland.

 

[simonw]

Wouldn't that make every country in Schengen one country?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 8 Sep 2025 ==


They may have the right to set their own entry conditions yes. However while they are part of the Common Travel Area they can't refuse to admit British or Irish citizens. The Common Travel Area doesn't apply to third country citizens.

The schengen agreement allows for the reinstatement of border controls in certain circumstances. Borders crossings are often still marked.

 

[Calthrop]

Feel a little surprised --and gratified -- at the number and variety of responses, in such a short time, to my OP !

A friend, who was very much into this, ticked off Indonesia by taking a ferry from Singapore to some obscure Indonesian island. Yes he got an Indonesian passport stamp, but.....

I ribbed him mercilessly.

I do a lot of mountaineering and must admit I've never really seen the attraction of e.g. Munro bagging. I've known people to get totally immersed in it and are on their 6th or 7th round of the Munros, often visiting the peak for a matter of seconds before heading back down. Creating routes which aim to join together lots of Munros regardless of the best views, etc. Each to their own though, and I'm sure if I end up naturally having bagged say 250 Munros, I may end up taking an interest in ticking off the rest of the list!

This kind of thing does strike me as an odd quirk on the part of the human race (some members of it, anyway): "compulsive collecting" of -- whatever -- focused pretty well totally on the process: actual interest in that which collected, minimal. Certain aspects of the railway hobby in which with some, that can apply; and in many other walks of life: as with the examples above -- and on the (quasi-)ornithological scene, the obsessive "twitcher" who will expend huge amounts of money / time / mileage to get to see a bird of a, for whatever reason, hard-to-come-by kind which he has never seen before; as soon as he has done so and ticked it off on his list, he loses all interest -- the species can promptly go extinct, for all he now cares. This way of going on -- reckoned an oddity almost totally confined to the male of our species -- is apt to seem to those of us who aren't made that way, strange and -- well -- rather sterile; but in the main, it does little or no harm, and as said, each to their own...

I think everyone can devise their own rules, just like we do for various railway-related things we want to accomplish. However, people can only compare their "country counts" if they are working to similar rules.

In my life I have spent a total of about 5 days in Luxembourg and I believe I can say that I have made a relatively comprehensive visit to that country. I also have spent a total of about 5 days in the USA and it's nowhere near the same.

Although this number is meaningless to me, I have been to 61 territories on the ISO 3166-1 list, but have been forced to state it when "comparing counts" with people.

I have a friend who says they have been to 80 countries but they have a penchant for taking obscure airlines. In about 30 of those countries they never left the airport (even if they passed through immigration), and in another 10 or so they spent one night in an international "cookie-cutter" chain hotel before going back to the airport.

My rules for a country counting are:
1) visit the capital city and, if it's not the largest or most important city, also visit that/those city/ies
1a) visit a government institution
1b) visit a residential neighbourhood
2) use as many forms of public transport as practical
3) use the local currency, at least in a situation where (some) people use cash in daily life
4) attempt to speak the local language to people who wouldn't ordinarily be expected to speak English in daily life (unless English is a language of daily life)

Given the complexity around British territories, I am separately attempting to visit every British territory under similar rules.

My rules are that it has to be an overnight stay unless the country is the size of Luxembourg or smaller.

In terms of it being a country, I'm counting Vatican City. I'm also counting Kosovo because if you aren't on the ISO committee that isn't even controversial. I'm not counting UK constituent parts, or the channel islands or Gibraltar, or Cueta which is even more definitively part of Spain. That puts me on 36.

If I get round to visiting the Faroes or Greenland I'm definitely also counting those, although I wouldn't count Svalbard or Bornholm. At the end of the day it's difficult to draw equivalences in different countries political structures, so you're best to draw the lines where you fancy. I'm starting to think that counting regions would be more fun anyway

Countries "bagged" -- indeed, "everyone to their own rules", reckonable as the sensible take on the matter, not so? I'd tend to see you gentlemen, @zero and @takno, as being far to the "scrupulous" end of the continuum; and your often-never-leaving-airport friend, @zero, and @Tester's "Indonesia" chum, as way out on the other end. It would look as though I'm somewhere in the middle -- severe-ish on self as to where qualifies: but no hard-and-fast rules, as it looks to be for you guys; am fairly rigorous, though, as to what's a proper country, and have at any rate to have set foot on the place's soil and seen something of it. I count Sweden, but get a pang or two of conscience over same -- it involved a "mini-cruise" from Harwich to Goteborg and return: the cruise part was really what the whole thing was about -- we got four hours actually on the soil of Sweden, including a briefish coach tour of the city and environs; it was winter, so part of our in-Sweden time was in darkness; however, I allow myself Sweden on the list -- total, by my criteria, a modest 21.

Had I been your "airport" man, @zero; I could claim to have visited Tajikistan. In 1993, for a visit to India, I flew London -- Delhi by Tajik Air (my companion for the trip hunted this one out -- outstandingly cheap fare): on the way out (only), we touched down at airport of country's capital, Dushanbe; didn't get off the plane; it was at least daylight -- from what we could see, Dushanbe looked the way one would reckon a typical ugly and messy ex-Soviet city to look.

 

[Starmill]

The schengen agreement allows for the reinstatement of border controls in certain circumstances. Borders crossings are often still marked.

Correct, it allows for temporary checks in certain circumstances and a very small number of other exceptions. The vast, vast majority of crossings involve no border checks.

There are ID checks in many countries. These aren't border checks because you don't need a passport, just a valid form of ID.