Show railcard immediately - what are the rules?

[sor]

Though of course holders of a 26-30 Railcard have no choice in the matter...

I had the 26-30 when it was on trial in East Anglia and on every monthly survey I'd point this problem out, asking that they would issue a plastic card when it launches properly.

I also had the exact same scenario as the OP - although I knew which app it was in, for some reason it had temporarily deleted itself at the exact moment an RPI wanted to see it. Fortunately she was not remotely as officious as the one the OP got, so she said she'd let me figure it out and come back later. Closing the app properly and reopening it seemed to get it back, though she never did come back herself...

I refuse to get a digital railcard since then.

 

[redreni]

"Bullying" ? We have one side of a story here. "Rude"= not saying what someone wants to hear......

I agree we only have one side of the story regarding the RPI's demeanor and whether he was rude.

I take it you're not disputing the OP's account of what he said, though?

"You have to produce your Railcard immediately, so you have to pay a Penalty Fare" is, as you point out, not what somebody who is looking for their Railcard and having trouble finding it wants to hear. But that's not what we're discussing. We are discussing whether it's right or not.

I certainly haven't seen anything to substantiate it.

If you're going to get tough with people, you have to be right.

 

[Cloud Strife]

Why aren't they available to load into wallets, which would surely be the easiest way to be able to retrieve and show within a reasonable time-frame? Is it to avoid the possibility of cloning? Why are other (non-railway) tickets suitable to be placed in a wallet without the risk of cloning?

The problem basically boils down to the fact that the wallets are static, rather than real-time. So, you could have a railcard in there, but the person checking would need to have access to the same railcard. There's no technical reason why it can't be done, the RPI would just need to be issued with a device that would scan the railcard (in the wallet) and then they'd see a digital photo/details of the holder on their device.

Shifting liability to the RPI for internet access would pretty much solve the issue.

 

[dastocks]

The railcard app does require a sort of connection to the Internet to show up.

I don't think that's true.
I just put my mobile into Airplane mode and the railcard app opened and displayed a railcard without any delay.
However, I would have thought it would be reasonable to have to restart a 'stuck' phone in order to load the app.

 

[jon0844]

Five minutes, to me, is a really long time. I wouldn't expect someone to wait for me to produce a railcard (or ticket) for that long, any more than I'd expect people behind me to be happy in a supermarket if I asked for five minutes to find my wallet to pay at the checkout.

I think if I asked someone to 'hang on a minute', that would be considered fine - and no different to giving time for someone to get a ticket out of their pocket/wallet/bag or load an app to show an e-ticket. If I was struggling beyond 30 seconds to a minute, I expect people to show some tolerance as I'm clearly trying, or even offer to help (like giving some advice on how to bring the railcard up, asking if the phone is on Wi-Fi or mobile data, is there signal etc).

If I literally asked for five minutes, it might sound like I'm stalling for some reason. I've witnessed people being told to come back later as they're 'on the phone', or suddenly getting up and saying they need to go to the toilet and walking off. I'm sure plenty of people have seem similar, and on a busy train you can't be stopped for 5 minutes for every passenger!

Obviously I wasn't a witness to this incident and the attitude of either party, but while there HAS to be discretion, and there's no specific time limit, five minutes to me seems somewhat excessive.

 

[jfollows]

I don't think that's true.
I just put my mobile into Airplane mode and the railcard app opened and displayed a railcard without any delay.
However, I would have thought it would be reasonable to have to restart a 'stuck' phone in order to load the app.

https://www.railcard.co.uk/managing-your-digital-railcard/ says

What happens if I don’t have reception or I am offline?​

Railcard are available offline for a period of up to 72 hours. The Railcard app on your device will continue to show your digital Railcard as long as your mobile device has connected to the internet at some point within the last 72 hours. However, you will need an internet connection to buy your digital Railcard or add it to a new device.

So, if you access your railcard online before starting your journey, you’ll be fine.
If you’re asked to show it when travelling and you didn’t do this, you’ll may not be.

 

[spyinthesky]

If it is acceptable that railcards require a Wi-Fi connection then the ticket check should be done if Wi-Fi is available.
If I am attempting to open my railcard app of which I do anyway if I see a ticket check further down the carriage then I do not look up or respond to anything till I am finished. Never had any problems

 

[jon0844]

How many people set off for any journey using a bus, train, plane - or goes to an event - without checking they have all their tickets and they're accessible (either printed off, or added to the app or Google Wallet/Apple Wallet etc etc)?

Those that don't are surely at risk of all sorts of issues. I've had it where a flight app has logged me out for inactivity and for whatever reason, the company has had some security issue in the past so when I go to log in again it requires me to change the password - which means a code sent via email or text etc. I can't say I'd want this as I'm about to scan my boarding pass because I checked in online a day or so before and didn't check my phone was working.

Likewise, imagine being in the queue at a venue and being pushed back because you can't load your ticket and insisting you have it.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 6 Sep 2025 ==

If it is acceptable that railcards require a Wi-Fi connection then the ticket check should be done if Wi-Fi is available.
If I am attempting to open my railcard app of which I do anyway if I see a ticket check further down the carriage then I do not look up or respond to anything till I am finished. Never had any problems

It is vital that apps should work as mentioned above, caching the details locally so you don't require a signal at the point of being asked to produce it. And, as I said, you'd be best advised to check everything is working before setting out of your front door..

 

[mmh]

Also, have you copied this from Google AI search or a large language model like ChatGPT?

Well spotted. No human would write like that.

It's all nonsense. There is no "immediate" requirement, he's just made that up.

Countless people every day will have their tickets, and railcards, in their luggage or a different pocket to they remembered. The vast majority of staff will move on and come back.

 

[Lewisham2221]

How many people set off for any journey using a bus, train, plane - or goes to an event - without checking they have all their tickets and they're accessible (either printed off, or added to the app or Google Wallet/Apple Wallet etc etc)?

Absolutely loads - which I find somewhat astounding, as to me it is absolute common sense to check you have everything you need before you set off.

 

[Anonymous10]

It is very simply on demand - immediately on being demanded or requested to do so. The obligation is immediate.

In practical terms, the railway may allow some individual discretion here, but that doesn't negate the requirement that it is on demand.

I believe this is one of those the rules and regs say this, but basic customer service would say give them a small amount of time while checking tickets within their vicinity, this has been done for myself by countless staff and operators when I have opened the app but not had sufficient signal.

Would you propose fining people who can open the app but it will not load due to not being immediately able to produce the card due to signal ?

 

[Bikeman78]

A passenger really ought to look at their ticket and any railcard immediately before boarding a train. This would mean they'd know that it was valid - which is what they have to be certain of, and correct about, to avoid committing a crime, and it would mean that anything that needs re-loading or finding is readily available. Passengers who don't do this are risking that a technical fault or human error might mean that they can't comply with the requirement to show their ticket later in the journey.

Checking before you get on is no help. A phone can freeze at any moment, which is exactly what mine recently. The home screen lit up when I unlocked it but I could make calls or open any apps. Holding down the power switch did nothing. I had to wait until I got home and then use my PC to look up how to force it to restart. This is why I will continue with paper tickets until they cease to exist.

 

[nanstallon]

Checking before you get on is no help. A phone can freeze at any moment, which is exactly what mine recently. The home screen lit up when I unlocked it but I could make calls or open any apps. Holding down the power switch did nothing. I had to wait until I got home and then use my PC to look up how to force it to restart. This is why I will continue with paper tickets until they cease to exist.

Quite so. I stick to paper tickets and railcards, which I keep in my (physical) wallet. It seems to me that electronic devices are full of problems, and the onus seems to be always on the passenger, so why bother with them? Dinosaurs of the world, unite!

 

[jon0844]

Checking before you get on is no help. A phone can freeze at any moment, which is exactly what mine recently. The home screen lit up when I unlocked it but I could make calls or open any apps. Holding down the power switch did nothing. I had to wait until I got home and then use my PC to look up how to force it to restart. This is why I will continue with paper tickets until they cease to exist.

To be fair a lock up like that, which doesn't even respond to a long press of the power button (with or without a volume key, depending on the handset vendor) to power down is a pretty rare issue. Some phones have suffered bootloop issues that render the phone useless in some extreme cases, but few people would have a phone lock up to that degree.

Of course, even a forced reboot can take some time and in the past, I've had a system update that hadn't been carried out (it had downloaded it but was waiting for me to tell it to install) and when rebooting, it decided that was now permission to do the update. I'd say that even a firmware update still takes less than five minutes though!!


== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 6 Sep 2025 ==

Quite so. I stick to paper tickets and railcards, which I keep in my (physical) wallet. It seems to me that electronic devices are full of problems, and the onus seems to be always on the passenger, so why bother with them? Dinosaurs of the world, unite!

Wherever possible I will print barcodes as a backup, and I am not a big fan of the likes of Ryanair forcing you to present the code on their app without risking a penalty. I am more than happy to use the app in the first instance, but a plan b is always a good idea because you could simply drop the phone and break it, let alone have it stolen, run out of battery (you can carry a power bank for that) or it freezes.

 

[StoneRoad]

Another dinosaur with paper tickets & physical railcards ...

Part of the other reasons are that my phone is a dumb Nokia, and I'm often travelling on two routes which have patchy - to say the least - mobile coverage. Not just low signal, but none at all in some places ...

Even so, I can manage to misplace my tickets into the wrong pocket !
Which means a frantic scrabble on hearing "Tickets, passes, railcards and excuses ready, please"
Having learnt the hard way, I usually have them out until after the checks have been done.

 

[Howardh]

I still have a physical railcard - thinking of getting one for my mobile next time, but unless it can be printed off (ie paper copy) as back-up which can be carried around if your phone fails, I doubt it would suit me.

On the train or at the gate I have to find the e-ticket (usually, but not always put in my google wallet) and then faf around for my railcard it may take me a while - however if that can also be stored in the wallet then it's not so bad. But still think I'll get a physical one which is good for three more years.

 

[Starmill]

I still have a physical railcard - thinking of getting one for my mobile next time, but unless it can be printed off (ie paper copy) as back-up which can be carried around if your phone fails, I doubt it would suit me.

On the train or at the gate I have to find the e-ticket (usually, but not always put in my google wallet) and then faf around for my railcard it may take me a while - however if that can also be stored in the wallet then it's not so bad. But still think I'll get a physical one which is good for three more years.

You can't print off a copy of a digital railcard. And even if you were to try to, it wouldn't be accepted in printed format anyway. It's only valid if it's displayed inside the app which "contains" it.

 

[Howardh]

You can't print off a copy of a digital railcard. And even if you were to try to, it wouldn't be accepted in printed format anyway.

I take it the railcard is part of an app so could be used on more than one device as long as you can login?

 

[pokemonsuper9]

I take it the railcard is part of an app so could be used on more than one device as long as you can login?

In the official railcard app you can have it on two different phones.
I don't know about other providors.

I've used e-tickets and online railcards for nearly 3 years now, always setting them up in advance of travel (if I'm using an e-ticket and a railcard at the same time I splitscreen them) and the only issue I've had is the horrible gates at Manchester Victoria which I can never get to read the ticket.

 

[Starmill]

I take it the railcard is part of an app so could be used on more than one device as long as you can login?

Yes you can load it into a maximum of two devices at a time.

 

[Howardh]

In the official railcard app you can have it on two different phones.
I don't know about other providors.

I've used e-tickets and online railcards for nearly 3 years now, always setting them up in advance of travel (if I'm using an e-ticket and a railcard at the same time I splitscreen them) and the only issue I've had is the horrible gates at Manchester Victoria which I can never get to read the ticket.

Join the club, my 66+ bus/rail pass never works when I try to tap in/out.

 

[aron2smith]

It really doesn’t help that some of the railcards are a pain to load in some of the apps and can genuinely take a minute or two to load up. There’s no physical alternative to the 26-30 one ether.

This is the real issue right here. Why doesn't the 26 to 30 railcard have a physical version anyway? Probably someone cutting corners again without making the product faultless in the first place. And no reason why they should need a separate app when all smartphones have a virtual wallet these days compatible with rail e-tickets, loyalty cards, boarding passes etc

iPhones at least come (not sure about Android) with express mode and Apple Pay works without internet required somehow, so really no reason for issues like the OPs situation at all. Either the railways use technology properly or stick to fool proof physical tickets and railcards I think.

Pretty daft reading the replies on here about how the apps don't work, not like our phone signal has ever been great on the railway and that should've been obvious to the government/ DFT.

So glad I could go from the 16 to 25 railcard to a disabled one. Physical cards all the way, next to my physical ticket in a travel wallet! I'll only use the phone version when it finally just works. Technology forgot to be that straightforward for a very long time.

 

[Nottingham59]

The "On Demand" Clause in Law: While there isn't extensive case law specifically defining "on demand" in the context of a railway ticket, the term is widely understood in English law, particularly in commercial contexts like "on-demand bonds" and "demand loans." In these areas, "on demand" means that the obligation to pay or perform is triggered immediately upon the request of the creditor or beneficiary, without any need for further notice or a waiting period.

Note the words in bold. The obligation is triggered immediately. What you have quoted says nothing about the fulfilment of that obligation.

This legal interpretation supports the idea that the railway ticket must be produced immediately.

Doesn't follow from your previous statement. Try collecting an on demand loan, as per your own example, and see whether the money iis paid in less than five minutes.

 

[Starmill]

Why doesn't the 26 to 30 railcard have a physical version anyway?

To save the cost of distributing yet another kind of novel blank ticket stock to every ticket office in England, Scotland and Wales mainly.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 6 Sep 2025 ==

iPhones at least come (not sure about Android) with express mode and Apple Pay works without internet required somehow, so really no reason for issues like the OPs situation at all.

NFC tickets are freely available. For example the Paris Metro uses them, though you can still get a conventional tiny one with a mini magstripe from a machine if you want. You can find this in your Apple wallet app. This is exactly the same as paying with a contactless device, but instead of exchanging payment card data between your device and a terminal, it exchanges the data that came from the ticket you loaded. Neither process ever required an internet connection, all it's doing is communicating between something stored in your device and a terminal. Google Pay will work perfectly fine on a phone that's in flight mode with say an EasyJet card reader that's in offline mode. Which is good because neither has the first chance of a signal.

Google Pay doesn't need an express mode.

 

[Paul AC]

Join the club, my 66+ bus/rail pass never works when I try to tap in/out.

Same here, but my GM 66+ bus/rail/tram pass started working the Victoria gates a couple of months ago - presumably they got a config change. My pass now works the gates at Man Piccadilly, Oxford Road, Victoria, Wigan (both North Western and Wallgate) at least.

 

[Vexed]

Here's my thoughts.

I've got my digital Railcard through TrainSplit, and have a shortcut direct to the railcard from my home screen. This loads nearly instantly (except the photo, that can take a couple seconds but whoever's checking usually moves on as soon as the rest of it loads!). I never check/load it at the start of a journey as I know it's a 3 year railcard expiring in 2027.

5 minutes is too long if there's good signal but if the railway can't provide WiFi then they need to accept a digital Railcard might take that much time to find and load, or they should properly ensure third party Railcard providers do work offline.

 

[Starmill]

Pretty daft reading the replies on here about how the apps don't work, not like our phone signal has ever been great on the railway and that should've been obvious to the government/ DFT.

For the avoidance of doubt, if you have a stable connection, or no connection whatsoever, and you have a modern device, it is likely to be fine. The problems arise from the state where your device "thinks" it's connected to the internet, but in no meaningful way is that actually possible with the connection it has. My device loves auto-connecting to WiFi networks that I know have no uplink for example. Say because it's WiFi I haven't paid for on a ferry. Some apps can handle that but most can't. My OS seems to be part of the problem too.

There is a risk of the app itself imploding, which realistically is something you'll be able to claim damages for from the publisher of the app if necessary, albeit only with loads of hassle and a risk of legal action. More likely if that happens, which again is something with precedent, staff are briefed to accept all tickets without checking railcards until it's fixed. That's deeply unsatisfactory but if it did happen again in the future (as it probably will do) you'd eventually be made whole if charged again.

So the only real risk you can't control is some kind of technical damage. I personally experienced this when my phone's screen stopped working, though the rest of the device was still functioning fine. I was very lucky I wasn't asked to show a ticket in the time between when my phone broke and when I was able to get off the train at somewhere with a phone shop to load everything onto a new phone...

Your travel insurance really needs to be able to handle that latter situation too. For example if your screen were to shatter meaning you had no way to display your air boarding pass before your flight was due to depart, you'd be pretty stuffed in a lot of situations. Only travel insurance could save you then.

 

[island]

NFC tickets are freely available. For example the Paris Metro uses them, though you can still get a conventional tiny one with a mini magstripe from a machine if you want.

Not for much longer, these are being phased out. A plastic Navigo Easy card (anonymous) will be needed to hold tickets going forward.

 

[Cloud Strife]

For example if your screen were to shatter meaning you had no way to display your air boarding pass before your flight was due to depart, you'd be pretty stuffed in a lot of situations.

On the contrary! The airlines know who has passed through security in the vast majority of airports, so they already can see your name and details at the gate. It's not an issue for them to simply issue a new boarding pass in this case, and even the worst airlines (hello, Wizzair) will accommodate travellers in this way.

It's all nonsense. There is no "immediate" requirement, he's just made that up.

It is complete nonsense, I agree. The killer point was the lack of reference to case law, which is standard in AI-generated texts.

 

[jon0844]

On the contrary! The airlines know who has passed through security in the vast majority of airports, so they already can see your name and details at the gate. It's not an issue for them to simply issue a new boarding pass in this case, and even the worst airlines (hello, Wizzair) will accommodate travellers in this way.

And I am sure they could all charge for this if they so desired, and charges don't appear to need to be in any way linked to the actual cost of providing a service.

The best thing about it is that anyone who doesn't need to re-print will say it's fine to impose a fee, even a high one, because it doesn't affect them. Until one day it does.