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Totnes to Grantham ticketing confusion

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bugdev

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Hi there, apologies if this has been covered elsewhere, but I regularly travel Totnes to London on the 6.01, changing at Newton Abbot to the 6.31. Generally I try and book in advance directly with GWR, but have increasingly been using Trainline. I was recently told of a loophole if travelling on the day when there are no longer advance tickets, namely a buying a ticket for Totnes to Grantham as a Super off peak ticket via trainline with an itinerary for the 6.01 and 6.31 before undergroudn travel to Grantham for a 10.48 arrival. This comes in at some £50 pounds cheaper and according to the T&Cs allows for a break of journey at intermediate stations. As I work near Kings Cross I thought this would be perfect for the occasions where I don't have a cheaper advanced fare and the first time it proved, but on the second occasion I was charged an excess fare by the GWR inspector, who was adamant that the ticket was not valid on that service, despite the fact that I clearly had an itinerary, including seat reservations, for this service.

She did correctly note that you cannot buy that ticket through GWR, but it is available through Trainline, the Railforums own site, and interestingly comes up as an option on nationalrail, though when one tries to purchase this option through Hull Trains it's not listed. The interaction was unpleasant, with the inspector more or less stating Trainline was the wild west and they had no obligation to honour their tickets. I should add the inspector on the earlier Totnes-Newton Abbot train had no objection to the ticket on this or the previous occassion. I have checked the restriction code HD but that seems to apply to the Grantham leg. Is this a glitch on the part of trainline, or a slightly odd but wholly legitimate way of travelling to London? I have no intention of avoiding paying what's owed etc. but I cannot currently see why I cannot buy this ticket and use it in this way. I contacted trainline on this and they were fairly useless.
 
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ainsworth74

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I assume that this is the ticket you have been buying?

Standard
SINGLE
SUPER OFFPEAK S [HD]
SSS
Fares Period
8 Jun 25—6 Sep 25​
From​
TOTNES
To​
GRANTHAM
Route​
✠HULLTRNS & GWR​

In which case I would tend to agree restriction HD simply restricts the Hull Trains leg of the journey and there is no restriction on break of journey (i.e. finishing short):

Restrictions​

Applicable Days​

Monday to Friday
Mondays-Fridays

Outward Travel​

Not valid on Hull Trains southbound services timed to arrive London Kings Cross before 11:30 or northbound services timed to depart London Kings Cross after 14:59 and before 18:49

Return Travel​

Not valid on Hull Trains southbound services timed to arrive London Kings Cross before 11:30 or northbound services timed to depart London Kings Cross after 14:59 and before 18:49

I would contact GWR and request a refund of the excess you were sold. A good retailer (not to toot our own horn but ours is) would back you up with GWR I'm sure but sadly Trainline care little for what goes wrong for their customers when using their tickets.

Also, as an aside, I would not be surprised to see either a break of journey restriction added to that ticket or even some sort of restriction on arriving at Paddington in the morning once GWR realise what's going on.
 

bugdev

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Thanks for the speedy response and I didn’t know the forum had a ticketing site but will use from now on.

I agree I expect GWR to close this loophole and I’m not sure I have the energy to debate it in a train carriage again but appreciate the peace of mind that I was adhering to the relevant restrictions etc. many thanks
 

AlterEgo

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As an aside, and on top of what @ainsworth74 has said, any ticket sold by an accredited site with an itinerary is de facto valid as the customer has formed a contract. If the GWR inspector was unhappy, they should have withdrawn the ticket, issued a nil fare replacement, and submitted the ticket as a TIR to their revenue team. No suspicion should have fallen upon you nor any excess been charged.
 
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david1212

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Also, as an aside, I would not be surprised to see either a break of journey restriction added to that ticket
Given the need to transfer between Paddington to Kings Cross stations using the encoded 'Maltese Cross' TfL underground transfer how could this be enforced so the passenger has to join the specified Hull Trains service from Kings Cross and travel to Grantham not just walk out of Kings Cross after passing through the underground exit barriers? Similarly just walk out of Paddington not entering the TfL underground network. Even if done multiple times as it has to be a magnetic stripe card ticket not an Aztec code be that printed or on a phone screen AFAIK there can not be any tracking of (mis)usage back to the online account where the purchases were made.
or even some sort of restriction on arriving at Paddington in the morning once GWR realise what's going on.
This is workable.

As an aside, and on top of what @ainsworth has said, any ticket sold by an accredited site with an itinerary is de facto valid as the customer has formed a contract.
^^^ This - I was typing the same when you completed your post. It is very poor that any inspector does not know this.

If the GWR inspector was unhappy, they should have withdrawn the ticket, issued a nil fare replacement, and submitted the ticket as a TIR to their revenue team. No suspicion should have fallen upon you nor any excess been charged.
Indeed.
 

Bletchleyite

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IAlso, as an aside, I would not be surprised to see either a break of journey restriction added to that ticket or even some sort of restriction on arriving at Paddington in the morning once GWR realise what's going on.

A break of journey restriction would be meaningless if you have to cross London as there is no way to enforce it. Restrictions on the GWR leg are perhaps more likely as a "fix" if too many people use this.
 

Kite159

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A break of journey restriction would be meaningless if you have to cross London as there is no way to enforce it. Restrictions on the GWR leg are perhaps more likely as a "fix" if too many people use this.
Agreed, cue GWR pricing managers already being made aware of said ticket and for it to magically gain restrictions into & out of Paddington
 

30907

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Agreed, cue GWR pricing managers already being made aware of said ticket and for it to magically gain restrictions into & out of Paddington
As HT set the fare, presumably they have to be persuaded?
 

voyagerdude220

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Restrictions at Paddington and Waterloo now added...
I've just had a look for this journey next Tuesday and it's still offering me Super Off Peak Single £99 route Hull Trains & GWR on the 06:01 departure from Totnes, arriving Grantham 10:48.
 

Watershed

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I've just had a look for this journey next Tuesday and it's still offering me Super Off Peak Single £99 route Hull Trains & GWR on the 06:01 departure from Totnes, arriving Grantham 10:48.
Give it a couple of days for the restrictions to take effect...
 

ainsworth74

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Restrictions at Paddington and Waterloo now added...
Very restrictive as well!

Not valid to arrive​
LONDON PADDINGTON​
0230–1129​
on any TOC​
Not valid to arrive​
LONDON WATERLOO​
0230–1129​
on any TOC​

Doesn't make them useless exactly but really cuts down on the trains you can use from Kings Cross onwards as it's now only the 1348 and 2030 I reckon that are valid.
 

Watershed

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Very restrictive as well!



Doesn't make them useless exactly but really cuts down on the trains you can use from Kings Cross onwards as it's now only the 1348 and 2030 I reckon that are valid.
Yep, it's gone from one extreme to the other.

If HT are wondering why they're suddenly not selling any of these tickets anymore, this might explain why...

The 'Network Area Rule' existed for a good reason so adding restrictions like these is utterly counterproductive.
 

fandroid

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Yep, it's gone from one extreme to the other.

If HT are wondering why they're suddenly not selling any of these tickets anymore, this might explain why...

The 'Network Area Rule' existed for a good reason so adding restrictions like these is utterly counterproductive.
Indeed, but this journey starts outside the old Network Area, and you can see some justification here on restricting arrivals at Paddington. But putting in exactly the same restrictions for Waterloo? That certainly doesn't make sense given that the extended journey times on that route make it a really unattractive option and not any sort of loophole worth closing.
 
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Haywain

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The 'Network Area Rule' existed for a good reason so adding restrictions like these is utterly counterproductive.
Both Totnes and Grantham are well outside the area that was covered by the Network area rule. However, in this case it is ludicrous to have a restriction on travelling away from, as well as towards, London. A ticket purchased from Totnes should have restrictions to and from Paddington only, while one purchased in the reverse direction can be restricted to and from King's Cross.
 

furlong

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Both Totnes and Grantham are well outside the area that was covered by the Network area rule. However, in this case it is ludicrous to have a restriction on travelling away from, as well as towards, London. A ticket purchased from Totnes should have restrictions to and from Paddington only, while one purchased in the reverse direction can be restricted to and from King's Cross.
Indeed within the Network Area the change shouldn't be necessary - there may be a boundaries where the "primary leg" and "feeder leg" switch over. It looks like a hasty reaction which ought to be reviewed and replaced with something more nuanced, (which might require new restriction codes).
 

Puffing Devil

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Yep, it's gone from one extreme to the other.

If HT are wondering why they're suddenly not selling any of these tickets anymore, this might explain why...

I think that may well be the intention... close the door and ramp up the revenue.
 

Watershed

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I think that may well be the intention... close the door and ramp up the revenue.
Well the intention was to stop people doing what the OP was doing.

But HT clearly haven't thought at all about how unusable the new restrictions make the 'HT & GWR only' Super Off-Peak fares. The 'Any Permitted' equivalents only have directional restrictions on arrivals into London (into Kings Cross if bought towards Totnes, or into Paddington if bought towards Grantham).

It's just a kneejerk reaction that belies how little thought has gone into the change.
 

Haywain

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But HT clearly haven't thought at all about how unusable the new restrictions make the 'HT & GWR only' Super Off-Peak fares.
I would be very surprised if HT have had anything to do with this.
 

Watershed

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I would be very surprised if HT have had anything to do with this.
They are the ones that have implemented the changes. No doubt at GWR's request, of course, but a degree of critical thinking wouldn't have gone amiss...
 

Kite159

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The number of genuine passengers going from Totnes to Grantham are probably massively outweighed by those buying those tickets to get a cheap way into London.

Similar to when Virgin Trains (?) had advance fares for 'Virgin & connections' for morning peak trains which undercut the fare from South Eastern town - London. How many of those got sold only for the passenger to somehow miss their booked train from Euston.
 

lnerazuma

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Well well well, always the usual suspect (worst group company) rejecting a perfectly valid ticket.

In situations like this, you really have to weigh up whether it's worth escalating. I've had multiple unpleasant experiences with journeys completed using unregulated (loophole) fares, and unfortunately, often had to suck it up when things went wrong. I was even quite hesitant to claim DR or request a refund even in cases involving cancellations which means I've had to abandon the journey .
 
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