Thank you for your detailed response! I didn’t realise how much was involved. I suppose if you’re stopping at Diss and Stowmarket there would be less benefits whoch would potentially be outweighed by the costs. Ideally you would want non-stop Norwich-Ipswich I suppose.
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Greater Anglia: potential timetable improvements, additional rolling stock & cascades?
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R
RailUK Forums
No problem.
If the whole line from Ipswich to Norwich was upgraded to 110mph, the saving would be 2 minutes with a Diss stop.
Alternatively, leaving it at 100mph and not stopping at Diss (or any other one station call) saves 4 minutes.
dk1
Veteran Member
There wasn’t much point getting to 100 between Colchester & Manningtree as line speed drops to 95 just after Ardleigh. I was always doing 100 just after Bentley though unless catching up a freight.
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110mph has been discounted before because of limited time saving and the fact that 13 AHBs would need to be upgraded. This was one of the reasons the spec for the new fleet only specified 100mph rolling stock.
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Thank you mate. Yes nothing above 100 on the GEML. Although it’s possible to modify them, they currently would not allow any driver to go above the 100mph. Very smart little bits of kit these 745s.
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Adrian1980uk
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It all goes back to anywhere south of Ipswich will not make any difference to journey times as the there's only 2 lines and any Norwich service catches the stopping service in front.
Prime example was the May 24 timetable change (from memory) the 18:30 added the extra stop at Stratford for the same end to end time, this also avoids the 10 minute early just before Colchester waiting for the train in front to get to it's platform.
Prime example was the May 24 timetable change (from memory) the 18:30 added the extra stop at Stratford for the same end to end time, this also avoids the 10 minute early just before Colchester waiting for the train in front to get to it's platform.
Trainbike46
Established Member
Things that speed up both the stopping and the fast service can have advantages - though whether any of those are possible is a different question!
Instinct04
On Moderation
I know this is a small (and slightly unrelated thing) but. I was wondering if it would be possible to provide an extra tph call at Brimsdown on the WAML?
The Stratford - Bishops Stortford services have the following pattern between Tottenham and Cheshunt: 1tph Northumberland Park, Enfield Lock, 1tph Waltham Cross only.
Northumberland Park is a reasonably quiet station, (I should know because I regularly use it to see my Uncle). Could the Northumberland Park call be moved to Brimsdown? I do not believe that this would have any effect on the Stansted service behind it, as it would have the same number of stops, just one at a different location.
Brimsdown is a much busier station, and I (a regular user of the station) believe that it should warrant a service to Stratford, as I see many people travel from there and change at TH for the service there. It would also provide a boost in capacity without having any major affects on other services.
Also, is there a reason for the other 1tph to be Waltham Cross ONLY between Tottenham and Cheshunt? Could this service pick up another station as well?
Could any of this be done?
The Stratford - Bishops Stortford services have the following pattern between Tottenham and Cheshunt: 1tph Northumberland Park, Enfield Lock, 1tph Waltham Cross only.
Northumberland Park is a reasonably quiet station, (I should know because I regularly use it to see my Uncle). Could the Northumberland Park call be moved to Brimsdown? I do not believe that this would have any effect on the Stansted service behind it, as it would have the same number of stops, just one at a different location.
Brimsdown is a much busier station, and I (a regular user of the station) believe that it should warrant a service to Stratford, as I see many people travel from there and change at TH for the service there. It would also provide a boost in capacity without having any major affects on other services.
Also, is there a reason for the other 1tph to be Waltham Cross ONLY between Tottenham and Cheshunt? Could this service pick up another station as well?
Could any of this be done?
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IMHO Clapton should get its Broxbourne/Hertford services back. I appreciate that it would be operationally challenging, and the new station at Lea Bridge is probably adequate for most of the area, but half the people on a rammed 710 out of Liverpool Street get off there, and it seems like 4tph isn't enough. Same goes for Seven Sisters (and arguably Edmonton Green).
The whole stopping patterns on that section are all a shambles. In the future, when it's eventually all quad tracked (we can dream...), I think the best solution is 3tph all stations LST to Hertford, 2tph semifast Stratford to Bishops Stortford, 2tph Cambridge North fast to Cheshunt and then all stations, and then 4tph Stansted. This is all completely speculation, and I'm sure there's a thousand reasons why it operationally wouldn't work, but that's what this subforum is for!
Instinct04
On Moderation
In regard to the Clapton situation, wouldn't this slow the Hertford services down? They are already pretty slow already, but this is because they have to serve the local stations along the WAML between Tottenham and Cheshunt (because no other services do).
The London Overground services to Enfield Town and Cheshunt need to be looked at also. Ideally it should be at least 6tph off peak between Edmonton and Liv Street, with 3tph each on both branches. Peak flows, 4tph on each branch if possible. (The Cheshunt bay may be a constraining factor). I don't think fast services would work on the Southbury Loop since they would catch the slows.
On the WAML, stoppers between Cheshunt and Tottenham should be at least 4tph, rising to at least 5-6 in the peaks (serving every stop)
The London Overground services to Enfield Town and Cheshunt need to be looked at also. Ideally it should be at least 6tph off peak between Edmonton and Liv Street, with 3tph each on both branches. Peak flows, 4tph on each branch if possible. (The Cheshunt bay may be a constraining factor). I don't think fast services would work on the Southbury Loop since they would catch the slows.
On the WAML, stoppers between Cheshunt and Tottenham should be at least 4tph, rising to at least 5-6 in the peaks (serving every stop)
Instinct04
On Moderation
I agree with this idea.
How realistic is this though? I live on the west Anglia main line too and I certainly think Brimsdown warrants a better service for sure.
The only way to make extra stops on the current infrastructureis to either substitute stops, or slow everything down by 2-3 minutes. Neither are attractive.
IMHO Clapton should get its Broxbourne/Hertford services back. I appreciate that it would be operationally challenging, and the new station at Lea Bridge is probably adequate for most of the area, but half the people on a rammed 710 out of Liverpool Street get off there, and it seems like 4tph isn't enough. Same goes for Seven Sisters (and arguably Edmonton Green).
The whole stopping patterns on that section are all a shambles. In the future, when it's eventually all quad tracked (we can dream...), I think the best solution is 3tph all stations LST to Hertford, 2tph semifast Stratford to Bishops Stortford, 2tph Cambridge North fast to Cheshunt and then all stations, and then 4tph Stansted. This is all completely speculation, and I'm sure there's a thousand reasons why it operationally wouldn't work, but that's what this subforum is for!
There isnt capacity for more services into Liverpool St. So 4 tracking will only happen with Crossrail 2.
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Instinct04
On Moderation
With the removal of Shenfield metro services from LST mainline platforms into the Elizabeth line core, couldn’t some trains, e.g 2tph run via Stratford instead? I know that LST has extra capacity now and the WAML trains aren’t as restricted on the approach anymore..
Not without lots of new infrastructure at Stratford.
Platforms 11 and 12 are mainly used as terminating platforms from the north. Mixing through and terminating moves in the same set of platforms doesn't work well.
I wonder whether in reality it'd just be the Stratford - Stortford services extended to Stanstead Airport. Then you run into the problem of whether the Stansted tunnel and platforms can actually handle more than the current 4tph StanEx and 1tph XC + 1tph Norwich.
I wonder whether in reality it'd just be the Stratford - Stortford services extended to Stanstead Airport. Then you run into the problem of whether the Stansted tunnel and platforms can actually handle more than the current 4tph StanEx and 1tph XC + 1tph Norwich.
I have heard that the tunnel isn't at full capacity and there's space for 2 more tph through the tunnel, even though that seems a bit optimistic. The limitation is platform capacity at Stansted, so a new platform would need to be built, which would not be impossible.
Instinct04
On Moderation
Ah, I see.
This situation is rather frustrating though, when I miss the train to Brimsdown at Tottenham Hale, and roughly 15 minutes later a Bishops Stortford train pulls in, which stops at Northumberland Park and Enfield Lock, but completely bypasses Brimsdown..
The reason why I think Brimsdown deserves a better service is due to the fact that it caters for:
1. A Large Industrial Estate
2. The surrounding neighbourhood of Brimsdown including a large housing estate
3. The neighbouring area of Carterhatch, which at present does not have a railway station despite the Southbury loop running right through that area (resulting in a long gap between Southbury and Turkey Street stations - their equivalents being Ponders End and Enfield Lock on the WAML). But Brimsdown doesn’t have one!
This station is very well used, and often rammed during the rush hours. The morning peak service is fine (4tph) but PM peak, there is only 2tph!!
Yet Northumberland Park sees 4tph during the afternoon peaks? Why is this? It has been noted that NP is a much quiter station than Brimsdown yet it sees more trains both off peak AND the peaks?
Northumberland Park has the Meridian Water trains that don't stop on the main line.
Instinct04
On Moderation
True.
This then leaves the other 2tph as main line trains that stop there. Could one of these go to Brimsdown?
If the timetable cycle is going to be repeated every 30 minutes then no.
once upon a time, Brimsdown was going to be the outer limit of what is now the Meridian Water thirdding/platform and shuttles.
I don't know if it might still receive some incremental improvement like that, or MW is the 'instead' - and it's CR2 or nothing. That certainly seems the view of most, although not all peak paths are being used so might be some smaller adds possible, or station swaps.
I don't know if it might still receive some incremental improvement like that, or MW is the 'instead' - and it's CR2 or nothing. That certainly seems the view of most, although not all peak paths are being used so might be some smaller adds possible, or station swaps.
Instinct04
On Moderation
Could you explain why?
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They should certainly look at station swaps. Enfield Lock and Waltham Cross are the top priority between Cheshunt at Tottenham. Which is fair as they get the most demand.
Northumberland Park is a relatively quit station, with White Hart Lane not far away (and at 4tph).
Brimsdown is on its own, (No Southbury Loop equivalent) and only sees 2tph. It boils my blood to see a Bishops Stortford train zoom past 15 minutes in between the Hertfords, and not one of them stop.
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It also annoys me how Brimsdown stops are often cancelled if there are any disruptions on the line, yet Enfield Lock and Waltham Cross are nearly ALWAYS served.
Also during engineering works, GA have (on occasions) ran a Sunday timetable in which Brimsdown receives a measly 1tph. (This was when there were no Stratford trains so NP and MW needed other trains.
I understand this but why not have the Hertford services have the following stopping pattern between Cheshunt and Tottenham Hale:
1tph Cheshunt, Waltham Cross, Enfield Lock, Brimsdown, Ponders End, Meridian Water, Tottenham Hale ..
1tph Cheshunt, Waltham Cross, Enfield Lock, Brimsdown, Ponders End, Northumberland Park, Tottenham Hale..
Instead of what was ACTUALLY done:
1tph Cheshunt, Waltham Cross, Enfield Lock, Meridian Water, Northumberland Park, Tottenham Hale ..
1tph Cheshunt, Waltham Cross, Enfield Lock, Brimsdown, Ponders End, Tottenham Hale ..
What this meant was that Brimsdown only received 1tph, as well as Ponders End, to accommodate Meridian Water and NP.
Why not have 1 train each per hour serve either one? Why CUT Brimsdown services?
Is there any logical explanation as to why this was done? I am aware the world doesnt revolve around Brimsdown, and that there are other stations with FAR higher priority, but I just can’t understand this?
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What you need to understand is that, on the West Anglia Main Line, everything revolves around the Stansted Airport service. This is the biggest flow on the Great Britain rail network with a station outside London, and 5th biggest overall, behind only 4 Elizabeth Line Central London flows. Furthermore I have seen on here, from a reliable source, that the Stansted Express generates about a quarter of Greater Anglia's revenue.
Everything else has to keep moving fast enough to stay out of the way of the 4tph Stansted service. That's particularly difficult in the Lea Valley, where Ponders End-Brimsdown-Enfield Lock-Waltham Cross-Cheshunt are all roughly only 1 mile apart. Furthermore, Brimsdown, Enfield Lock and Cheshunt also have level crossings. More stops at those stations screw up the Stansted Express, which means that station stops by other services at those stations have to be carefully rationed.
Services that repeat every 30 minutes can't have 1tph, it is simple arithmetic.
Instinct04
On Moderation
Oh, so the Stratford to Bishops Stortford services are kind of seperate from each other, in the sense that they each have different calling patterns.
Ok.
What I am asking is, could the NP call on the Slow Stratford to BIS service go to Brimsdown?
It would take the same amount of time to unload at Brimsdown as it would at NP.
What is the specific reason as to why the 2SXX services cannot have their NP stop moved to Brimsdown?
Ok.
What I am asking is, could the NP call on the Slow Stratford to BIS service go to Brimsdown?
It would take the same amount of time to unload at Brimsdown as it would at NP.
What is the specific reason as to why the 2SXX services cannot have their NP stop moved to Brimsdown?
Mikey C
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You can see that at Tottenham Hale, which is always packed with airport travellers.
Because then Northumberland Park would have no direct connection to/from the north.
Instinct04
On Moderation
But going south, it has more services! And at peak times the extra Hertford services also skip Brimsdown too!! I may as we’ll start using Enfield Lock, since at peak It times it gets 4tph for some odd reason.. I’ve been to that station many times, passanger flows are NOT that different than Brimsdown. Waltham Cross is that same.
These three stations all get similar levels of traffic yet Brimsdown gets a far crappier service... I’m not asking all trains to stop, but if the service pattern can be looked at to squeeze in one more train at PM peak hour times (AM is fine.)
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These three stations all get similar levels of traffic yet Brimsdown gets a far crappier service... I’m not asking all trains to stop, but if the service pattern can be looked at to squeeze in one more train at PM peak hour times (AM is fine.)
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Does it need it? The flows northwards from there are very minimal.
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Now that I think about it, almost NOBODY goes northwards from NP. I should know, I used to use the station regularly before I moved.
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