Change to EMR First Class - what will it mean?

[thelongestroad]

Another example of management thinking of brilliant ideas to add confusion for passengers and crew alike, safe in the knowledge that they can save a few £££ for their KPIs but not actually have to deal with customers in real life.

 

[ChrisC]

Some passengers do take advantage at the moment. I was on a Nottingham-St Pancras train the other day and a chap got on in First Class at Leicester with two children, one of whom seemed to be young enough to be free. The steward came round, checked tickets and asked whether he would like anything from the trolley.

Having ordered a coffee, taken three bottles of water and piled the table up with crisps, biscuits and cakes and asked where the sandwiches were we slowed for the Market Harborough stop.

He got up with his kids, scooped all the goodies into a rucksack and alighted, leaving his undrunk coffee. The steward call after him that there weren’t any sandwiches left anyway.

I think that the changes are more to do with saving The Taxpayer money rather than the outgoing EMR.

A couple of months ago when I was travelling down to London from Nottingham in First Class I saw an incident probably even worse than that.

I was sitting in one of the single seats opposite the wheelchair space. A family boarded at Leicester. The man sat on his own in the seat in front of me with his phone playing video clips at high volume whilst the woman, who I presume was his wife, stood in the wheelchair space with a small child and another in a pushchair. When the staff member came along with the refreshments and to check tickets they only had standard class tickets. They did not speak very good English and found it difficult to understand but eventually agreed to pay for an upgrade. The staff member explained to them that the Train Manager will be along shortly to take their payment. They were then served with coffee, bottled water, crisps, biscuits etc before they got off the train at Kettering before the Train Manager had come to take their upgrade payment.

I don’t know what annoyed me the most. The fact that they received all of this without payment, or the amount of noise they made when I was enjoying a peaceful journey in First Class.

 

[hatifhafi3]

Another example of management thinking of brilliant ideas to add confusion for passengers and crew alike, safe in the knowledge that they can save a few £££ for their KPIs but not actually have to deal with customers in real life.

Couldn’t agree more—sometimes it feels like these “innovations” are dreamed up in a boardroom without anyone actually considering what it’s like for the people on the ground. Saving a few quid looks great on paper, but it’s the passengers and crew who end up paying the price in hassle and stress. That Bognor line made me laugh though—sums it up perfectly!

 

[tbtc]

They probably don't want to tie themselves down to exactly 30 minutes because as pointed out above that would mean you'd get the full service between Nottingham and Leicester on the xx12 stopper but not on the xx50 non-stop. I'd think they'd do it by origin/destination pairs rather than time.

This seems the most sensible explanation/post

Explicitly tying it to journey times would only create ambiguity when there's diversions (via Corby or Ereshaw) or with engineering allowances etc on later services

"The bad news is an incident on the line ahead means everyone will be delayed by a few minutes but the good news is that this triggers a free bag of crisps for First Class passengers"

Plus, they'd have to deal with the inevitable negativity if speed improvements (either due to the new trains, stopping patterns or infrastructure) meant that certain journeys were now scheduled for 'just under' thirty minutes and therefore no freebies

I appreciate that some people on here have very 'analytical' minds but I think a fuzzy definition is probably best for a TOC to introduce

 

[Llandudno]

Couldn’t agree more—sometimes it feels like these “innovations” are dreamed up in a boardroom without anyone actually considering what it’s like for the people on the ground. Saving a few quid looks great on paper, but it’s the passengers and crew who end up paying the price in hassle and stress. That Bognor line made me laugh though—sums it up perfectly!

Similar to TfW’s Standard Plus initiative…!

Trains ordered with fewer seats to offer ‘Upgrades’ on board the train, never introduced as totally unworkable on the ground…!

 

[Trainman40083]

Indeed - I've had a few first advance upgrades of £5 or less, with a couple of instances of first advance being cheaper than standard.

Some years ago, I had to go from Derby to Earls Court. Company policy was to buy your rail tickets and claim it back.. But policy was you couldn't travel first class. Well, the best advance fares were from Derby, first class with breakfast (cheaper than standard class) and standard class back. £76 return. Company argued I had breached policy.. But open standard was £180 return. It ended up signed off by a director.

 

[Harpo]

I appreciate that some people on here have very 'analytical' minds but I think a fuzzy definition is probably best for a TOC to introduce

As a customer I want certainty not ‘will I actually get refreshments?’ etc..

Fuzzy definitions only suit the TOC as it isn’t on the hook for anything on board after it’s got my money.

 

[Lee_Again]

Some years ago, I had to go from Derby to Earls Court. Company policy was to buy your rail tickets and claim it back.. But policy was you couldn't travel first class. Well, the best advance fares were from Derby, first class with breakfast (cheaper than standard class) and standard class back. £76 return. Company argued I had breached policy.. But open standard was £180 return. It ended up signed off by a director.

Some directors might have asked what was the advance standard fare. Advance First is nearly always cheaper than a Std Open.

FYI - I always did an advance first and simply put the receipt in.. never the ticket. Was never challenged. Same 'no first' rule applied.

 

[Trainman40083]

Some directors might have asked what was the advance standard fare. Advance First is nearly always cheaper than a Std Open.

FYI - I always did an advance first and simply put the receipt in.. never the ticket. Was never challenged. Same 'no first' rule applied.

If I recall there wasn't any advance standards showing.

 

[Taunton]

If I remember travelling Virgin West Coast to Birmingham Any journey within the West Midlands was not served a meal. It meant meals were only served after leaving Coventry going south and leaving Euston going north. Presumably London passengers were seen as premium and had often paid a big premium particularly in First Class.

It could be worse than that in Virgin days, on Glasgow to London trains meals in First were sometimes not provided until after Preston.

 

[voyagerdude220]

It could be worse than that in Virgin days, on Glasgow to London trains meals in First were sometimes not provided until after Preston.

I always remember back in the days of direct Voyagers running from Preston towards the South West and South East (possibly around 2005) there was a network map on the Club Class/First Class menus which was mostly there to highlight that anyone travelling north of Preston or Newcastle (IIRC) or south of Bristol/Reading had to collect the complimentary offer from the onboard Shop.

But more to the subject of this thread about TOCs only offering the complimentary food/drink on certain journeys, there was a shaded section of the map around the Birmingham area which highlighted that only drinks and "light snacks" (I'm assuming most items on the menu bar the "Snack Box" which was the main/most substantial item on the menu) would be offered in the shaded area of the Virgin Trains network.

 

[Travelmonkey]

It does seem like common sense, like when on avanti they ask how far you are going. Sticking in the region will be tight on time. For EMR that will be a bit annoying if your travelling to Kettering from Long Eaton northwards, instead of full service on a direct you'll get 2 "light" offerings.

 

[sprunt]

"Common sense" just means making it up as they go along. Paying passengers have a right to know what they can expect and the criteria on which that's based.

 

[BeijingDave]

They may hope, that over time, less people use first class, so they can convert the carriage to standard class.

Sorry, I'm not doubting you but why?

I'm not a MML traveller, but based on Avanti an anytime return (standard) from Warrington to Euston bought on the day of travel is £179 and first class is an eye-watering £390. It's a similar distance as Sheffield to London.

46 x 390 = £17,940
62 x 179 = £11,098
(based on standard Pendolino configurations)

You are pulling in way more revenue (and I expect profit) if you can fill a First Class carriage at peak time.

 

[Trainman40083]

Sorry, I'm not doubting you but why?

I'm not a MML traveller, but based on Avanti an anytime return (standard) from Warrington to Euston bought on the day of travel is £179 and first class is an eye-watering £390. It's a similar distance as Sheffield to London.

46 x 390 = £17,940
62 x 179 = £11,098
(based on standard Pendolino configurations)

You are pulling in way more revenue (and I expect profit) if you can fill a First Class carriage at peak time.

I am not doubting you either. If you can fill first class on MML you can make way more revenue. If you dumb down the service, so less people travel first class, you don't. For the extra money, the first class passenger will have expectations. Shutting first class lounges, an average food service, people upgrading from standard class may mean the business traveller can't work; so maybe they drive. You may get to the point where standard class is packed, first class empty. A while ago, on one forum, someone asked what they would get travelling first class from Derby to Cardiff. Well, a wider seat. You might get a coffee, but little else. So why travel first class?

 

[Jimini]

So why travel first class?

Hopefully a bit of peace and quiet, personally speaking. Although I do enjoy a brew or two on board when they're available.

 

[duffield]

...
A while ago, on one forum, someone asked what they would get travelling first class from Derby to Cardiff. Well, a wider seat. You might get a coffee, but little else. So why travel first class?

Derby to Cardiff would involve Cross Country**. In standard class even if you have a reservation, good luck actually getting to it on some services and even if you do good luck trying to get the probable occupant to move; the train crew won't be able to help even if inclined to since they probably won't be able to get through the train. Meanwhile, 1st pretty much guarantees you will actually get your reserved seat.

**Assuming via Bristol Parkway as we are talking about services where 1st is available.

 

[Trainman40083]

Derby to Cardiff would involve Cross Country. In standard class even if you have a reservation, good luck actually getting to it on some services and even if you do good luck trying to get the probable occupant to move; the train crew won't be able to help even if inclined to since they probably won't be able to get through the train. Meanwhile, 1st pretty much guarantees you will actually get your reserved seat.

But on a Cross Country Class 170 on a Cardiff train , there isn't any first class anymore.

 

[duffield]

But on a Cross Country Class 170 on a Cardiff train , there isn't any first class anymore.

Yes, but as we were talking about whether 1st was worth it, I was assuming Derby to Cardiff via Bristol Parkway, which is a reasonable route and has 1st on both XC and GWR.

I've edited my post to make this clear.

 

[Mikw]

I am not doubting you either. If you can fill first class on MML you can make way more revenue. If you dumb down the service, so less people travel first class, you don't. For the extra money, the first class passenger will have expectations. Shutting first class lounges, an average food service, people upgrading from standard class may mean the business traveller can't work; so maybe they drive. You may get to the point where standard class is packed, first class empty. A while ago, on one forum, someone asked what they would get travelling first class from Derby to Cardiff. Well, a wider seat. You might get a coffee, but little else. So why travel first class?

You get a seat.......i've been made to stand in the vestibule on many a recent trip

 

[WesternLancer]

Trying to prepare food etc for people leaving the train fairly soon, at the expense of your more valuable, longer distance passengers isn't a great experience for anyone.

It's a long time since I've seen anything that would class as having to be 'prepared'. Maybe I've not been on at the correct times but all the food is pre packed I thought, and cold. Perhaps there are some warm breakfast rolls on some trains.

 

[Trainman40083]

Yes, but as we were talking about whether 1st was worth it, I was assuming Derby to Cardiff via Bristol Parkway, which is a reasonable route and has 1st on both XC and GWR.

I've edited my post to make this clear.

Indeed it is a reasonable route. Last time I tried to do it, the 07.28 HST from Derby was diverted via Alfreton, so I went on the Class 170.

 

[WesternLancer]

The cost of “a few bags of crisps” soon mounts up when it’s spread over an entire network. It’s relatively low hanging fruit in terms of making economies; the short journeys on EMR IC (Derby - Sheffield, Derby - Leicester etc.) really don’t justify anything beyond a cuppa and a biscuit.

But how much does this complimentary stuff really cost?

Even the crisps come in mini bags and with all the products bought in bulk as part of large corporate purchasing contracts the costs of the sort of items they give away I would have thought might well be measured in pence per item.

It's the staff costs to have someone to give them away that must be the bit that costs. The items they give away these days are pretty low grade quality - I can't imagine at cost price they add up to much.

Just another part of the effort to turn the east mids franchise into very much a sub inter city offering IMHO

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 4 Sep 2025 ==

As a customer I want certainty not ‘will I actually get refreshments?’ etc..

Fuzzy definitions only suit the TOC as it isn’t on the hook for anything on board after it’s got my money.

Exactly - because if you don't know if you are going to get anything to eat when you are on the journey, and you might actually be hungry - you need to buy something before you get on the train anyway.

 

[43066]

But how much does this complimentary stuff really cost?

Even the crisps come in mini bags and with all the products bought in bulk as part of large corporate purchasing contracts the costs of the sort of items they give away I would have thought might well be measured in pence per item.

It's the staff costs to have someone to give them away that must be the bit that costs. The items they give away these days are pretty low grade quality - I can't imagine at cost price they add up to much.

Just another part of the effort to turn the east mids franchise into very much a sub inter city offering IMHO

Both will have a cost - I have no idea what it is but no doubt a FOI would reveal it (subject to commercial confidentiality concerns). The host is there anyway, so mo longer giving sandwiches to people on the train for a short time will reduce the cost in terms of total food items used, as well as prioritising those on longer journeys.

Exactly - because if you don't know if you are going to get anything to eat when you are on the journey, and you might actually be hungry - you need to buy something before you get on the train anyway.

Many people do this anyway. And for journeys of half an hour or so who really needs feeding on the train? From extensive experience of the EMR IC network the changes make sense - one thing we can be sure of is that they won’t reduce passenger numbers any.

 

[styles]

Trying to prepare food etc for people leaving the train fairly soon, at the expense of your more valuable, longer distance passengers isn't a great experience for anyone.

EMR's first class catering offer is limited to a breakfast roll on weekdays mornings, and the rest of the time it's cold sandwiches etc.

There's not really much prep needed for anything they offer. Blasting a bacon roll may take a minute but even that can be achieved on short journeys.

I believe they're doing this for cost reasons, rather than the difficulty of delivering sandwiches to seats on 30 minute journeys. The more cynical side of me believes they want to make 1st class a less attractive offering so they can make the case for reducing the amount of space allocated to it, so they can make more money by putting in additional standard seating.

 

[Harpo]

And for journeys of half an hour or so who really needs feeding on the train?

Not important on a leisure trip but someone on business might have little other spare time in the day. I’ve certainly experienced that.

 

[sh24]

Railways have incredibly high fixed costs. So if you need to make savings there aren’t many things to go after…sadly one of those is catering.

 

[Harpo]

Railways have incredibly high fixed costs. So if you need to make savings there aren’t many things to go after…sadly one of those is catering.

Usually by those who don’t (or won’t) grasp its invisible revenue benefits.

It reminds me of a lawyer recalling a superb rant where in frustration he yelled ‘I can show this to you, I can read this to you, but I can’t ….ing understand it for you!’

 

[Bishopstone]

Having just checked - early next week there are First Class Advances available between Sheffield and Derby, on numerous EMR services, for £10.60. But many/most first class leisure travellers will have a railcard, reducing the fare to £7.05.

For seven quid, if you're offered a coffee and a biscuit on a thirty-minute journey, I think you should consider yourself lucky.

First class fare revenue should be putting money back into the subsidised railway. So calls for, effectively, a Meal Deal offering (supermarket retail price £4) on a £7 fare don't reflect financial realities, and are getting close to a situation where the FC offer is subsidised by the rest of the train. No wonder EMR/DfT are addressing this situation in a measured way.

I assume the new trains will have a more suitable balance between Standard and First class seating numbers that will allow a higher average First Class fare - which is the way out of this conundrum in the long term.

 

[voyagerdude220]

Having just checked - early next week there are First Class Advances available between Sheffield and Derby, on numerous EMR services, for £10.60. But many/most first class leisure travellers will have a railcard, reducing the fare to £7.05.

You're right. Coincidentally I remember laughing to myself when someone asked me about ticket prices from Sheffield to Derby recently. I noticed that the First Class Off Peak Return (route Any Permitted so of course it isn't just for use on EMR) was often cheaper than an Advance First single on a Cross Country train between the two cities.