Future of the 350/2s

[Mamorin]

There was testing last night!!!

Sorry I was referring to the over night testing last month.

I had no idea there was testing last night.

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If Northern did take on the 350/2s anybody got any guesses of what routes would get 350/2s and what routes would get 331s?

Let’s be honest if the 350/2s were to go to Northern then the 323s would get replaced.

 

[Liam L]

Let’s be honest if the 350/2s were to go to Northern then the 323s would get replaced.

I believe it's already been discussed here that is high unlikely to happen.

Id imagine the 350s would release 323s elsewhere for more capacity on other routes.

 

[Mamorin]

I believe it's already been discussed here that is high unlikely to happen.

Id imagine the 350s would release 323s elsewhere for more capacity on other routes.

I must have missed that discussion.

Can't see where needs 6 car 323s on daily basis though.

Any routes that need 6 car 323s already have them afaik.

If 350/2s were to go to Northern what routes would you guess would lose 323s and get 350/2s instead?

 

[pokemonsuper9]

There are 37 350/2s, Northern has 34 323s, there isn't space for both.

 

[The_Train]

Has the tender for the 323 refurb that Northern put out a few months ago been withdrawn?

 

[Mamorin]

There are 37 350/2s, Northern has 34 323s, there isn't space for both.

Thats another reason why I thought that if the 350/2s went to Northern that the 350/2s would replace the 323s.

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Has the tender for the 323 refurb that Northern put out a few months ago been withdrawn?

Not that I can tell, here it is on Gov.UK.

 

[BerkshireRails]

Has the tender for the 323 refurb that Northern put out a few months ago been withdrawn?

Maybe they are keeping it open until they confirm that the 350/2s will be able to work for them as like a back up.

 

[Mamorin]

Only Northern knows the answer to that.

The contract for the winner of the tender was planned to start last month, and according to the tender document the refurb should start sometime this month.

However Northern have afaik not announced/confirmed anything publicly about the ex WMT sets going in for a refresh this month.

 

[Tazi Hupefi]

There are 37 350/2s, Northern has 34 323s, there isn't space for both.

Again, says who?!

There definitely is space- you just don't know what is being planned.

Part of this project is looking at stabling and maintenance locations that Northern doesn't currently use regularly, like Crewe and Adwick.

This isn't about replacement, it's enhancement.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

Again, says who?!

There definitely is space- you just don't know what is being planned.

Part of this project is looking at stabling and maintenance locations that Northern doesn't currently use regularly, like Crewe and Adwick.

This isn't about replacement, it's enhancement.

I had just assumed an extra 2,960m of trains wouldn't fit and it would have to be a swap, an enhancement would be excellent news.

 

[Mamorin]

an enhancement would be excellent news.

Sure would be. Northern being able to run more 6 car 323 services would be very nice.

 

[jfollows]

Sure would be. Northern being able to run more 6 car 323 services would be very nice.

I’d like the 350/2 to replace them, I don’t think 6 car 323s are an option on the Crewe line, or on the down Stoke line at at least two stations, but it’d be a benefit elsewhere for sure.

 

[Mamorin]

6 car 323s can make it to Stoke, as Northern run 6 cars to Stoke at Christmas.

Maybe 6 cars won't fit at Longport, but Northern only call there like once a day.

6 car 323s are also used on Crewe services from time to time.

Outside of Christmas and match days 323s are kinda over kill on most off peak services to Stoke. So you could replace the 323s on off-peak services to Stoke with 350/2s for most of the year.

I've only ever traveled to Crewe with Northern on a 323 once and that was a weekday off-peak service, and I don't remember it being that busy.

 

[Tazi Hupefi]

I think you'll find that the Crewe and Stoke "Northern" services will potentially look very different in the not too distant future, in terms of timetable, stopping pattern and origin/destination.

Although I am not sure how progressed this is on the Network Rail side of things.

 

[jfollows]

6 car 323s can make it to Stoke, as Northern run 6 cars to Stoke at Christmas.

Maybe 6 cars won't fit at Longport, but Northern only call there like once a day.

6 car 323s are also used on Crewe services from time to time.

Outside of Christmas and match days 323s are kinda over kill on most off peak services to Stoke. So you could replace the 323s on off-peak services to Stoke with 350/2s for most of the year.

I've only ever traveled to Crewe with Northern on a 323 once and that was a weekday off-peak service, and I don't remember it being that busy.

I think Prestbury & Cheadle Hulme down platforms are a problem, so they lock out a unit for the down journey, up to Stoke is OK.

Plus they can’t use the bay platform at Stoke of course.

 

[Mamorin]

I think you'll find that the Crewe and Stoke "Northern" services will potentially look very different in the not too distant future, in terms of timetable, stopping pattern and origin/destination.

Although I am not sure how progressed this is on the Network Rail side of things.

I had heard recently that Northern's Stoke services were going to change, but I have no idea what those changes will be.

Well outside of reinstating the Sunday Rail Service in 2026.

Bit annoying that Sunday services to Stoke will remain as Rail Replacement services until then.

Anyway thats a bit off topic, unless the 350/2s are behind the scenes being explored as to wether they can be used on Stoke services.

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I think Prestbury & Cheadle Hulme down platforms are a problem, so they lock out a unit for the down journey, up to Stoke is OK.

All 6 cars are in use on Stoke services when 6 cars are running.

You can see passengers sat in the rear unit in this video.

 

[jfollows]

All 6 cars are in use on Stoke services when 6 cars are running.

You can see passengers sat in the rear unit in this video.

Good to know, thanks.

 

[Tazi Hupefi]

There may, and I stress may, (especially in the speculative section of the forum) - be some GBR led changes being considered that send presently "Northern" services through towards Stafford (more likely) Rugeley (possible but not all day) and some bits and pieces concerning Crewe-Stoke via Alsager.

Which is why additional stock such as the 350s is also important.

 

[Mamorin]

Possibly extending Northern services beyond Stoke would make a good case for Northern using 350/2s.

Since 350/2s are cleared to Stafford and Rugeley, and 350/2s have a top speed of 110mph, compared to 323s top speed of 90mph.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 3 Sep 2025 ==

Good to know, thanks.

Your welcome.

 

[Jamesrob637]

I can see Northern receiving the 350s

In 2026

 

[Mamorin]

We are so close to December now and with limited 350/2s off lease I also can't see Northern getting the 350/2s until 2026.

That is if and its still an if, if Northern take the 350/2s.

Remember we don't even know how interested Northern are with the 350/2s.

 

[D365]

There are 37 350/2s, Northern has 34 323s, there isn't space for both.

I was lead to believe that Manchester International depot will be reopening, in order for the Class 323s to be based out of Manchester once again.

 

[Mamorin]

I know the 323s do use Manchester International Depot, and iirc the idea for using Manchester International Depot was so that the units that operated services in Manchester were based in Manchester.

If the 350/2s went to Northern I would guess they would be maintained at ether Manchester International Depot or Ardwick Depot, with Allerton perhaps used for stabling/overnight cleaning.

 

[Liam L]

However Northern have afaik not announced/confirmed anything publicly about the ex WMT sets going in for a refresh this month.

They have, there posters onboard the units. However there no start date stated, the tender suggested this month however id imagine it's been put back.

 

[BerkshireRails]

I was lead to believe that Manchester International depot will be reopening, in order for the Class 323s to be based out of Manchester once again.

Where is Manchester International depot?

 

[Mamorin]

They have, there posters onboard the units. However there no start date stated, the tender suggested this month however id imagine it's been put back.

My bad, I have not been on a 323 in a while so I have not seen the posters.

As for why it has been pushed back, their are only two reasons I can think of.

The first is the 350/2s trials and Northern are at least considering taking on the 350/2s.

The second is that Northern have decided not to take on the 350/2s, but are still in talks with Porterbrook regarding taking on 2 extra 323s.

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Where is Manchester International depot?

It’s very close to Longsight TMD. Here is where Manchester International Depot is on Google Maps.

 

[BerkshireRails]

It’s very close to Longsight TMD. Here is where Manchester International Depot is on Google Maps.

Looks to have four roads each around 350m long so it would be possible to fit up to 34 450/2 or 323s.

 

[D9006]

Yes 350/2s do have less seating than a 323.

323s have 277 seats where as 350/2s have 246 standard class seats and 24 first class seats.

Having travelled on numerous 323s at peak times, the amount of 3 seaters fully used is very low, they are more like 3/4 size seats , so in reality more seats are used on the 350s I would guess

 

[Bletchleyite]

Having travelled on numerous 323s at peak times, the amount of 3 seaters fully used is very low, they are more like 3/4 size seats , so in reality more seats are used on the 350s I would guess

The excellent legroom on the 3 side of the 350/2 (unlike the 323) really does help too.

If you have to have 3+2, they're one of the best (or least worst). I don't hate them like many do, but they are very much in need of a good refurb, being quite tatty now.

 

[Mamorin]

Having travelled on numerous 323s at peak times, the amount of 3 seaters fully used is very low, they are more like 3/4 size seats , so in reality more seats are used on the 350s I would guess

That same lack of 3 seaters being fully used at peak times would pop up on the 350/2s given the 350/2s are 3+2 in Standard Class.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 3 Sep 2025 ==

but they are very much in need of a good refurb, being quite tatty now.

No matter what TOC takes on the 350/2s they need a good midlife refurb, which they would hopefully get given they are nearly half way through their working lives.