The Labour Party under Andy Burnham

[londonbridge]

Two tier justice yet again, David Lammy escapes with a warning for fishing without a licence, anyone else would have been fined.

David Lammy given formal warning over lack of licence during fishing trip with JD Vance - but will avoid fine

David Lammy could have netted a penalty of up to £2,500, despite not catching any fish, but instead landed just a warning.

news.sky.com

David Lammy could have netted a penalty of up to £2,500, despite not catching any fish, but instead landed just a warning.

The foreign secretary has been issued a formal warning by the Environment Agency after reporting himself for fishing with the US vice-president without a licence.

David Lammy reported himself to the agency after an "administrative oversight" meant he failed to get a rod licence while hosting JD Vance at his grace-and-favour retreat in Chevening, Kent, on 8 August.

Mr Lammy failed to catch any fish, although Mr Vance and his children were more successful, and returned their catches to the lake.

At the time, a Foreign Office spokesperson said that, after recognising his mistake, Mr Lammy had subsequently purchased a licence.

Anglers in England and Wales aged 13 or over must have a rod licence to fish for freshwater species. If they do not have one, they can face a fine of up to £2,500.

On Friday, an Environment Agency spokesperson confirmed Mr Lammy would not be prosecuted, but had received a formal warning.

 

[Gloster]

I believe that a Formal Warning is the normal sanction for a first offence when self-reported. So normal justice.

 

[brad465]

Appearing in a s***e remake of Brokeback Mountain would be punishment enough for me there.

 

[GusB]

To be fair to David Lammy, he represents a London constituency and probably had no idea that he needed a licence to fish. Presumably, a house that size has staff; did nobody think to advise him that he'd require a permit?

 

[edwin_m]

Probably assumed that as the lake was within the grounds, the occupiers of the house had the right to fish there.

 

[Yew]

I believe that a Formal Warning is the normal sanction for a first offence when self-reported. So normal justice.

We can't let minor things like facts and evidence get in the way of some Torygraph headlines about the supposed 'Two Tier Kier'.

 

[david1212]

Back in time the deputy PM was John ' two Jags ' Prescott.
Now we have Angela ' three pads ' Rayner.

'Three Pads Rayner' dubbed a hypocrite after splashing £800k on flat

Angela Rayner was branded a hypocrite on Sunday for buying a seaside apartment as her own department warns against the impact of second homes.

www.dailymail.co.uk

Angela 'Three Pads' Rayner is dubbed a hypocrite after splashing out on an £800,000 seaside bolthole to go with her family house and grace-and-favour flat - while her department warns the rest of us of the ills of second homes!

She is said by neighbours to have bought the 'biggest and nicest flat' in the Victorian terrace block, with sea views and celebrity neighbours, and has been spotted sipping wine on the beach as well as taking to the water in a kayak.

Yet one of her junior ministers has repeatedly hit out at the damage caused by the wealthy buying up boltholes for themselves or to rent out in popular areas, pricing locals out of the market. Housing minister Matthew Pennycook has spoken in Parliament about the 'negative impacts of excessive concentrations of short-term lets and second homes', which affect 'local services' as well as 'the availability and affordability of homes for local residents to buy and rent'. And he has told MPs that the housing department - which has already given town halls the power to double council tax on second homes - wants to 'give local communities more power to tackle some of those problems'.

Ms Rayner herself has declared that Britain is in 'the middle of the most acute housing crisis in living memory', while Sir Keir Starmer has warned that second homes 'can impact the availability and affordability' of local properties.

Rayner accused of failure to tackle tall trees overshadowing neighbour

Angela Rayner has been accused of neglecting her constituency after she bought a seaside home 250 miles away.

www.dailymail.co.uk

Angela Rayner has been accused of neglecting her constituency after she bought a seaside home 250 miles away.

Neighbours in the Greater Manchester town she represents say they no longer see Labour's Housing Secretary, who now owns an £800,000 flat on the South Coast and enjoys the use of a grace-and-favour apartment in Westminster.

Angela Rayner buys third home for over £700,000

Angela Rayner has purchased a seaside apartment on the south coast of England for more than £700,000, meaning the Deputy Prime Minister occupies…

www.heraldscotland.com

Angela Rayner has purchased a seaside apartment on the south coast of England for more than £700,000, meaning the Deputy Prime Minister occupies three properties.

On Saturday night it was reported that Rayner, who is also housing secretary, bought the three-bedroom flat near Brighton earlier this year.

She already owns a home in her constituency in Ashton-under-Lyne, which she bought in 2016 for £375,00 and is now valued at £650,000, while also making use of a grace-and-favour ministerial apartment in Admiralty House in Westminster.

The Hove flat can readily be found on at least one of the websites that shows when properties were last sold and a price. Unless a moderator tells me it is OK I will not post the link.

 

[Gloster]

A grace and favour residence can be taken away at any time, which would leave her without anywhere to live when at Westminster if she hadn’t bought a flat in Brighton. Nowadays it is by no means impractical to carry out an MP‘s Westminster duties when you live in Brighton.

And do the residents of Ashton-under-Lyme expect her to spend all her time in the constituency, just like that nice Mr Farage does, rather than doing her ministerial and representative duties in Westminster, just like that nice Mr Farage…doesn’t. You can’t have it both ways.

This seems to be the usual Daily Mailograph smear, combined with a bit of the old attitude that they don’t want working-class northern women getting uppity. They should stay at the stove in their hovels in the wilds beyond the Watford Gap and leave the south to our readers.

 

[AlterEgo]

Minister enjoys wine and kayaking shocker. Desperate stuff all round from the press.

 

[david1212]

This seems to be the usual Daily Mailograph smear, combined with a bit of the old attitude that they don’t want working-class northern women getting uppity. They should stay at the stove in their hovels in the wilds beyond the Watford Gap and leave the south to our readers.

Your favourite search engine / website will show this is on most 'newspaper' websites and numerous others. I chose the Daily Mail because the full articles are not behind a log-in / paywall and second it shows the block the property is in and a couple of internal photos rather than just a photo or two of Hove seafront & beach.

A grace and favour residence can be taken away at any time, which would leave her without anywhere to live when at Westminster if she hadn’t bought a flat in Brighton.

Can indeed but likely while deputy PM? Worst case short term rent somewhere within say 30mins travel of Westminster.

Nowadays it is by no means impractical to carry out an MP‘s Westminster duties when you live in Brighton .....

... but how much of an advantage is living in Brighton rather than Ashton-under-Lyne given the grace and favour residence? With a car to/from Stockport then train to/from London which she can work on is there really that much difference?

And do the residents of Ashton-under-Lyme expect her to spend all her time in the constituency, just like that nice Mr Farage does, rather than doing her ministerial and representative duties in Westminster, just like that nice Mr Farage…doesn’t. You can’t have it both ways.

If they are realistic no but surely reasonable to expect her and indeed any MP to be in their constituency when they can. Being a MP is not a Monday - Friday 9-5 position.

OT but IMO there is a fundamental conflict between having a significant national role and the duties of a conscientious constituency MP. Here we are fortunate that our MP does not have a national role and does work hard for the constituency, unlike previous MP's for this constituency and the one I previously lived in. He does of course attend Westminster when required and has made speeches from the back benches. As to workable alternatives a discussion for a separate thread.

 

[styles]

Minister enjoys wine and kayaking shocker. Desperate stuff all round from the press.

Seems Daily Mail can't make their mind up on whether she's out of touch for buying a second home, or not classy enough for her role because she likes drinking wine on the beach and playing with a cheapo inflatable kayak.

 

[DarloRich]

She will have to resign. Roles such as "sleazesmeller pursuivant" & Housing minister surely make her position untenable. The Tories, Deform and thier media acolytes will be laughing sadly: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c2lx1999ez8o

The housing secretary has admitted paying the wrong amount of tax on a house.

That is pretty much the worst headline conceivable about any housing secretary, let alone Angela Rayner, who is also the deputy prime minister and spent years as Labour's sleazehunter-in-chief.

That's the straightforward fact which makes this such a damaging, indeed career-threatening, episode for Rayner.

Other elements are not quite so straightforward. The case was untypical because it involved her divorce, and a trust Rayner and her ex-husband had set up to provide for her son, who has lifelong disabilities.

 

[SuspectUsual]

She will have to resign. Roles such as "sleazehunter pursuivant" & Housing minister surely make her position untenable. The Tories and Deform will be laughing sadly: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c2lx1999ez8o

In normal circumstances, you'd argue that whether it's a resignation matter or not would depend on the detail - ie was she poorly advised by a tax specialist or was it wilful. The fact that there's a child with special needs involved in it makes it different to a "normal" multi-home stamp duty issue

However, in this day and age I suspect she will go, and they'll say its because she's become a distraction to their delivery of policy (sorry, people's priorities or was that the last lot?) and there'll be a spell on the sidelines before she's brought back in.

It feels a smaller story than the Mandelson ones, and he came back from both of those....

 

[jfollows]

Agreed, she’s toast, the longer she hangs on the worse it will be for the party.
You can’t claim to be the party of the people if you evade payment of £40,000 in tax.

I’ve been a trustee of a trust fund and it’s not hard to follow the rules.

 

[Gloster]

She will have to resign. Roles such as "sleazehunter pursuivant" & Housing minister surely make her position untenable. The Tories and Deform will be laughing sadly: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c2lx1999ez8o

I have to say that my first thought was the same, but having read the statement I am not so sure…yet. A senior minister should always be careful, but particular so when dealing with matters in their own area of government. It all depends on just how diligent and thorough her initial efforts to obtain advice on Stamp Duty were. If she was thorough and open with a reputable adviser on such tax matters and they made a serious error, it should not cause her resignation. However, anything less than that should lead to her going, much as I dislike the way the ****s target her because because she is a working-class women.

We shall see if the Conservatives are a little careful about how they handle this due to her difficult personal circumstances or whether they go in with the boot.

 

[jfollows]

No matter what advice she was given, as Housing Minister she was responsible for getting it right.

She and her colleagues constantly tell us how to run our lives, fair enough, but when they don’t follow their own rules they have to go.

Give her 24 hours to go gracefully, but then the opposition needs to go in with the boot.

 

[DarloRich]

We shall see if the Conservatives are a little careful about how they handle this due to her difficult personal circumstances or whether they go in with the boot.

Badenougth will stick the boot in - she has no idea about subtlety

It feels a smaller story than the Mandelson ones, and he came back from both of those

Agreed, she’s toast, the longer she hangs on the worse it will be for the party.

I don't want to lose her for government but her position will quickly become untenable. The press right wing propaganda rags will go for her like a shark after blood.

 

[jfollows]

Saying, as Housing Minister, that she doesn’t understand the rules is pathetic.
Plenty of people say they don’t understand the rules, does the taxman let them off? Of course not.
Advice is just that, you can’t pass the buck onto people who give you bad advice.

 

[DarloRich]

Saying, as Housing Minister, that she doesn’t understand the rules is pathetic.
Plenty of people say they don’t understand the rules, does the taxman let them off? Of course not.

Paying what you owe is the key. Would you have to resign your job if you underpaid tax? I doubt I would. I WOULD have to pay it back though.

 

[jfollows]

Paying what you owe is the key. Would you have to resign your job if you underpaid tax? I doubt I would. I WOULD have to pay it back though.

I should resign if it were my job to make the rules on housing tax and then didn’t pay the proper amount. If she were minister for paper clip production instead I agree with you.

 

[DarloRich]

I should resign if it were my job to make the rules on housing tax and then didn’t pay the proper amount.

and I have said the same!

 

[Tetchytyke]

I have a lot of sympathy for Rayner. The Telegraph has (remarkably) explained what she did wrong quite sympathetically:

What did Angela Rayner do wrong? Her tax row explained

Deputy Prime Minister resigns after admitting underpaying the stamp duty tax bill on her Hove flat

www.telegraph.co.uk

However, because her children own a life interest in the Ashton property, she is treated as retaining ownership of the home, despite selling her stake. It is this misunderstanding which has proved fatal to Ms Rayner’s claims that she had paid enough tax.

She might also have believed that she was eligible for a tax exemption for parents of disabled children.

Since November 2017, parents acting on behalf of children protected by the Mental Capacity Act of 2005, have been exempt from the second home stamp duty surcharge which is raised by these ownership rules.

The Mental Capacity Act of 2005 makes provisions for those over the age of 16 who are unable to care for themselves.

The Court of Protection can decide to appoint deputies to make some or all decisions on behalf of those without mental capacity. If a deputy has been appointed, then the stamp duty exemption applies, as the deputy is not considered an owner of the property under HMRC rules.

The house in Ashton is owned by the trust set up to protect the compensation for her disabled child; the house was put 50% into trust and then 25% for each of the child's parents. Following her divorce from her child's father, the trust bought her 25% share from her. She is no longer the legal owner of the property; the Trust owns 75% and her ex-husband owns 25%. She used this money to pay the deposit for her flat in Brighton.

Use of Trusts in this manner is relatively common where seriously disabled children are involved; it protects the money and the child.

However because the Trust's beneficiary is a child then that's child's parents (and any spouses of those parents) are treated as still owning the property for Stamp Duty Land Tax (SDLT) purposes. The law was changed to stop wealthy people avoiding the SDLT surcharge for second homes by putting their mansions into trust.

So you can see why she has been advised as she has- she sold up and bought a new flat- but sadly that advice was incorrect.

I think her position probably is untenable now, but it's fairly clear to me that there was no intention to swindle.

 

[jfollows]

Boris Johnson had the same problem. I’m sad to compare Angela Rayner with him, but hypocrisy is everywhere and unacceptable on either side.

And, no, they’re different. Boris didn’t care about breaking rules, as far as he was concerned rules are for little people, not for him. I’m sure Rayner didn’t want or intend to break the rules. But it doesn’t matter, if politicians break the rules, especially their rules, they have to go.

 

[Harpo]

I’m not remotely interested in what the print media has to say. They have been concocting anti-Labour rants since the day after the general election but, Rayner has to take responsibility for her actions and go.

Labour has to show it is serious and credible about conduct in public office, especially after a disastrous year of own goals.

 

[brad465]

I was only 2-3 at the time, but from what I've seen this is comparable to Mandelson's sleazy loan scandal that saw him resign early in the parliament. If this plays out in a similar way, Rayner could easily return to a Ministerial role (on top of Deputy PM which she will probably retain here) in a few years' time.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Boris Johnson had the same problem.

Boris Johnson had literally just signed the law that he pretended he didn't understand. He was the one who signed into law the regulations that meant people were getting fined thousands for daring to go for a walk in the countryside.

Boris Johnson's other issue was that he was getting ****-faced at No 10 straight after standing at a lectern to tell us that if we didn't stay at home then we'd be personally responsible for killing our grannies.

I don't think they are remotely comparable.

In terms of optics, though, her position is untenable. People will just see FORTY GRAND TAX DODGER without understanding the fact that she's been treated for tax purposes as owning a home that she doesn't have any legal interest in.

 

[jfollows]

What’s always telling about these things is the Westminster Bubble. It’s completely obvious to me that Rayner has to resign. Every minute she delays resigning makes things worse for her and for her party. Yet there’s always screeching fingernails on blackboards hanging on. They all do it. I guess if it were my job I’d be reluctant to go, but they seem to miss this part of the job description when they take the job. Be honest and don’t fiddle the system to your own advantage. Or be seen to.

What recent politician did something and resigned immediately? I’m not sure. Peter Carrington perhaps. I can’t remember if Mandelson tried to tough it out or not.

 

[SuspectUsual]

I should resign if it were my job to make the rules on housing tax and then didn’t pay the proper amount. If she were minister for paper clip production instead I agree with you.

Does the Housing Minister make the law on stamp duty, or is that the Treasury?

 

[jfollows]

Does the Housing Minister make the law on stamp duty, or is that the Treasury?

The Treasury does what it’s told to do!
She’s responsible even if she doesn’t make the law.

I also have a big problem with her situation - I see lots of disputes and prosecutions reported here, and they’re often along the lines of “genuine mistakes” such as by people not buying tickets before boarding because previously they’ve been allowed to buy tickets on the train. But, no, they’re different and can be prosecuted and have to pay up. So a politician who may be partly responsible for making the law but makes a “genuine mistake” - sorry, I have no sympathy. Do what people who don’t buy tickets do and pay the penalty.

 

[Falcon1200]

her position will quickly become untenable.

Indeed it will - What would Ms Rayner say, or has said, if it was a Tory Minister in a similar position? I doubt she would have much, or any, sympathy.

Would you have to resign your job if you underpaid tax?

Somewhat different when the person who has underpaid tax is a senior member of Government!