Change to EMR First Class - what will it mean?

[sheff1]

EMR are changing their offer from 15 September.

EMR’s Updated First Class Service​

We’re making some changes to our First Class service to better match the needs of your journey.

From 15th September, on shorter trips, we’ll be keeping things simple and convenient - offering complimentary hot drinks, water, juice, and a biscuit to enjoy on board.

For longer journeys, you can enjoy our full First Class experience, including breakfast options, a light afternoon menu, and a selection of snacks and drinks served throughout your journey.

As soon as I saw the words “we’ll be keeping things simple” I guessed it would be anything but.

Despite referring to shorter / longer trips/journeys, they don’t define what shorter or longer means.

Clearly a trip from Sheffield to Loughborough is shorter than one to Leicester but longer than one to East Mids Parkway and all three are longer than one to Derby - so where, if anywhere, does the offer change ?

Some might argue only a journey to/from St Pancras classes as ‘longer’, but from Leicester the journey times for St Pancras are pretty much the same as for Sheffield. So if former is ‘longer’ so is the latter. Alternatively, if Leicester to Sheffield is ‘shorter’ so is Leicester to London.

Wonder if EMR will issue a clarification or whether we will start to see people denied a breakfast roll or sandwich appearing in the Disputes section.

I don’t see anything wrong with current arrangements (leaving aside the long lost silver service) - roll/sandwich offered leaving Sheffield regardless of where you are getting off, with passengers boarding further south being served after the train has left their station.

 

[Trainman40083]

EMR are changing their offer from 15 September.

As soon as I saw the words “we’ll be keeping things simple” I guessed it would be anything but.

Despite referring to shorter / longer trips/journeys, they don’t define what shorter or longer means.

Clearly a trip from Sheffield to Loughborough is shorter than one to Leicester but longer than one to East Mids Parkway and all three are longer than one to Derby - so where, if anywhere, does the offer change ?

Some might argue only a journey to/from St Pancras classes as ‘longer’, but the journey times between Leicester and St Pancras are pretty much the same as between Leicester and Sheffield. So if former is ‘longer’ so is the latter. Alternatively, if Leicester to Sheffield is ‘shorter’ so is Leicester to London.

Wonder if EMR will issue a clarification or whether we will start to see people denied a breakfast roll or sandwich appearing in the Disputes section.

I don’t see anything wrong with current arrangements (leaving aside the long lost silver service) - roll/sandwich offered leaving Sheffield regardless of where you are getting off, with passengers boarding further south being asked after the train has left their station.

Well, of we assume the first class fares do not change, you will be able to get on an EMR train, expecting a meal and be told "sorry, this is a short journey" without ever knowing what a short journey was. So, effectively, a lesser service. They may hope, that over time, less people use first class, so they can convert the carriage to standard class.

 

[Tazi Hupefi]

It's surely going to be a common sense approach really.

For example, it would be reasonable to assume:

Sheffield to Derby, less options.
Bedford to London, less options.
Leicester to Nottingham, less options.

Trying to prepare food etc for people leaving the train fairly soon, at the expense of your more valuable, longer distance passengers isn't a great experience for anyone.

I suspect in practice, it's probably going to be around whether the journey is an hour or more unless it's a particularly quiet service and the host has stock to shift.

 

[70014IronDuke]

These sweetly worded, vague, vapid corporate announcements make me furious.

Yes, if anyone is reading from EMR, I mean you included!

Why don't they just say: we've got to save/make more money, so we're cutting the offering as follows: ...

 

[Dr Hoo]

Some passengers do take advantage at the moment. I was on a Nottingham-St Pancras train the other day and a chap got on in First Class at Leicester with two children, one of whom seemed to be young enough to be free. The steward came round, checked tickets and asked whether he would like anything from the trolley.

Having ordered a coffee, taken three bottles of water and piled the table up with crisps, biscuits and cakes and asked where the sandwiches were we slowed for the Market Harborough stop.

He got up with his kids, scooped all the goodies into a rucksack and alighted, leaving his undrunk coffee. The steward call after him that there weren’t any sandwiches left anyway.

I think that the changes are more to do with saving The Taxpayer money rather than the outgoing EMR.

 

[stuartl]

On my last two trips the normal trolley had been replaced with one of the smaller ones that Xc and LNER use. All food items hidden in drawers rather than being visible.

 

[sheff1]

It's surely going to be a common sense approach really.

I suspect in practice, it's probably going to be around whether the journey is an hour or more unless it's a particularly quiet service and the host has stock to shift.

Common sense and the railway, that would be novel.

I am also thinking an hour will probably be the cut off in practice, but it would have been very easy for EMR to specify that. If the host then shifts stock on a shorter journey that would be perceived by most as a bonus.

The lack of clarity is a potential trigger for argument.

 

[thejuggler]

Could a ticket note be added? Then you know if the journey is long or short?

 

[800001]

And still Nothing complimentary at all on a Sunday.

 

[liamf656]

On my last two trips the normal trolley had been replaced with one of the smaller ones that Xc and LNER use. All food items hidden in drawers rather than being visible.

That will be the trolley used from now on, on 222s and subsequently 810s

Clearly a trip from Sheffield to Loughborough is shorter than one to Leicester but longer than one to East Mids Parkway and all three are longer than one to Derby - so where, if anywhere, does the offer change ?

Some might argue only a journey to/from St Pancras classes as ‘longer’, but from Leicester the journey times for St Pancras are pretty much the same as for Sheffield. So if former is ‘longer’ so is the latter. Alternatively, if Leicester to Sheffield is ‘shorter’ so is Leicester to London.

Simply put - long journeys are anything over 30 minutes. So leaving Sheffield, if you're travelling to Long Eaton and beyond, you will get the full offer. Likewise from Nottingham, if you are travelling to Market Harborough and beyond. Anyone travelling to/from London will also get the full offer regardless

 

[sh24]

That sounds sensible, but it would be lovely if EMR could actually make that clear rather than vague words which sow doubt, cynicism and confusion.

 

[Iskra]

Isn’t this just what is already happening anyway?

 

[Sleepy]

Some passengers do take advantage at the moment. I was on a Nottingham-St Pancras train the other day and a chap got on in First Class at Leicester with two children, one of whom seemed to be young enough to be free. The steward came round, checked tickets and asked whether he would like anything from the trolley.

Having ordered a coffee, taken three bottles of water and piled the table up with crisps, biscuits and cakes and asked where the sandwiches were we slowed for the Market Harborough stop.

He got up with his kids, scooped all the goodies into a rucksack and alighted, leaving his undrunk coffee. The steward call after him that there weren’t any sandwiches left anyway.

I think that the changes are more to do with saving The Taxpayer money rather than the outgoing EMR.

and this is exactly why Greater Anglia stopped all 1st class complimentary items a while back at weekends because people with Weekend First £7 (at the time) were taking the Micheal.

 

[43066]

Some passengers do take advantage at the moment. I was on a Nottingham-St Pancras train the other day and a chap got on in First Class at Leicester with two children, one of whom seemed to be young enough to be free. The steward came round, checked tickets and asked whether he would like anything from the trolley.

Having ordered a coffee, taken three bottles of water and piled the table up with crisps, biscuits and cakes and asked where the sandwiches were we slowed for the Market Harborough stop.

He got up with his kids, scooped all the goodies into a rucksack and alighted, leaving his undrunk coffee. The steward call after him that there weren’t any sandwiches left anyway.

I think that the changes are more to do with saving The Taxpayer money rather than the outgoing EMR.

There do seem to be quite a few EMR passengers who do this kind of thing - whether that’s something to do with the areas served etc. I have no idea, but it is definitely a “thing”. It’s also quite common for the more popular sandwiches to run out so, from that point of view, this seems quite a sensible move.

Their first class is clearly a lot less “first class” than LNER, Avanti etc. but it’s also cheaper, and reflects the shorter journey times, so swings and roundabouts really.

 

[Bletchleyite]

and this is exactly why Greater Anglia stopped all 1st class complimentary items a while back at weekends because people with Weekend First £7 (at the time) were taking the Micheal.

No reason they should be permitted to do so. Just have prepackaged snack boxes and give one to each person, noting their seat number, and only give hot drinks if there aren't any already on the table. There might be the odd person who would move around the train to get another one but most people wouldn't.

It probably doesn't make sense to do a full service at those times because you'd end up losing money, but something small is good marketing.

 

[Big Sam]

They could make things even more "simple and convenient" by not providing any food and drink whatsoever.

 

[rower40]

Define “Longer” as a journey that crosses both the Tamar and the Tyne.

 

[dk1]

These sweetly worded, vague, vapid corporate announcements make me furious. Yes, if anyone is reading from EMR, I mean you included! Why don't they just say: we've got to save/make more money, so we're cutting the offering as follows: ...

You just know it won’t mean an improvement

 

[Haywain]

and this is exactly why Greater Anglia stopped all 1st class complimentary items a while back at weekends because people with Weekend First £7 (at the time) were taking the Micheal.

GA are not particularly generous during the week either but as the first class uplift isn't too steep (on Advance tickets) I don't have a problem with that.

 

[DDB]

I've normally had the full offer from Derby to Sheffield although sometimes they have run out of Sandwiches by that point.

I agree with everyone else who is saying just say where the cutoff is going to be!

 

[Russel]

I think that the changes are more to do with saving The Taxpayer money rather than the outgoing EMR.

Given how much money is being spent on other things such as HS2, I'm not convinced that the savings made on a few bags of crisps shortbread are will make much of a difference to the DFTs ballance sheet.

 

[43066]

Given how much money is being spent on other things such as HS2, I'm not convinced that the savings made on a few bags of crisps shortbread are will make much of a difference to the DFTs ballance sheet.

The cost of “a few bags of crisps” soon mounts up when it’s spread over an entire network. It’s relatively low hanging fruit in terms of making economies; the short journeys on EMR IC (Derby - Sheffield, Derby - Leicester etc.) really don’t justify anything beyond a cuppa and a biscuit.

Especially as those travelling the full length of the route often have to be told that the sandwiches they want have run out due to others taking more than their journey really justifies.

 

[lyesbkz]

I think CrossCountry (used to) define a longer journey as 50+ minutes on weekdays and 90+ at weekends and that was the point at which you'd get a free sandwich as well as just the snacks. Though they seem to have removed reference to that now.

This probably means you'll get a better selection on XC than EMR between Derby and Sheffield since they allow you to choose from all of the snacks and drinks even on shorter journeys, just no sandwiches. While it sounds like on EMR even the crisps and slices of cake will be off limits XC also provide soft drinks for free while EMR have always charged for them.

I can understand not serving sandwiches and hot breakfast rolls on shorter journeys but it does feel a bit stingy to not offer the full selection from the mini trolley!

 

[sheff1]

Isn’t this just what is already happening anyway?

No, as I explained in the OP.

 

[Qwerty133]

That will be the trolley used from now on, on 222s and subsequently 810s


Simply put - long journeys are anything over 30 minutes. So leaving Sheffield, if you're travelling to Long Eaton and beyond, you will get the full offer. Likewise from Nottingham, if you are travelling to Market Harborough and beyond. Anyone travelling to/from London will also get the full offer regardless

So is Leicester to Derby and Nottingham on the fast trains (22 / 21 minutes) a short journey but on the stopper (31/32 minutes) a long one?
Sounds like excellent advertising about some of their trains being so slow that they need to provide additional food.

 

[sheff1]

Their first class is clearly a lot less “first class” than LNER, Avanti etc. but it’s also cheaper, and reflects the shorter journey times, so swings and roundabouts really.

It is now. Earlier this century, even on a Saturday, you used to get a full silver service breakfast with unlimited toast preceeded by a choice of starter. Later services offered a wide choice of paid for hot meals.

Most are cheaper than LNER nowadays .

Simply put - long journeys are anything over 30 minutes.

If that is the official policy, why is it seeemingly beyond the wit of EMR to say so ?

 

[duffield]

...
They may hope, that over time, less people use first class, so they can convert the carriage to standard class.

I find it highly improbable that EMR have a cunning plan to declassify any of the precisely specified number of first class seats in the all new class 810s, which have a considerable uplift in standard seats anyhow. The 810s will be the only EMR units with 1st class once they are fully introduced.

This "change" also only seems to somewhat formalise current practice, that on many short journeys in 1st you get minimal or even no service - e.g. it's rare (in my experience) to get any service on a train from St. Pancras to Nottingham when joining at Leicester; occasionally you might get a drink.

 

[SephenWorceste]

If I remember travelling Virgin West Coast to Birmingham Any journey within the West Midlands was not served a meal. It meant meals were only served after leaving Coventry going south and leaving Euston going north. Presumably London passengers were seen as premium and had often paid a big premium particularly in First Class.

Perhaps they will do food only between London and Wellingborough.

 

[duffield]

It is now. Earlier this century, even on a Saturday, you used to get a full silver service breakfast with unlimited toast preceeded by a choice of starter. Later services offered a wide choice of paid for hot meals.

Most are cheaper than LNER nowadays .


If that is the official policy, why is it seeemingly beyond the wit of EMR to say so ?

They probably don't want to tie themselves down to exactly 30 minutes because as pointed out above that would mean you'd get the full service between Nottingham and Leicester on the xx12 stopper but not on the xx50 non-stop. I'd think they'd do it by origin/destination pairs rather than time.

 

[BJames]

There do seem to be quite a few EMR passengers who do this kind of thing - whether that’s something to do with the areas served etc. I have no idea, but it is definitely a “thing”. It’s also quite common for the more popular sandwiches to run out so, from that point of view, this seems quite a sensible move.

Their first class is clearly a lot less “first class” than LNER, Avanti etc. but it’s also cheaper, and reflects the shorter journey times, so swings and roundabouts really.

Indeed - I've had a few first advance upgrades of £5 or less, with a couple of instances of first advance being cheaper than standard.