Penalty Fare as an open return on TrainPal also includes day returns

[NedNedNed]

Hi all,

I wonder if anyone could give me some help. I recently bought a return ticket from Waterloo to Weymouth. I used the TrainPal app, clicked open return, and picked the cheapest ticket for the day. Two days later I came home and was confused when my ticket didn't work at the barrier. It turns out that TrainPal groups all return tickets without a specific time attached as "open returns", and the one I had bought was a day return. I've been given a penalty fare and I'm wondering if I have an angle to challenge it. I know I should have checked the small print more closely, but if I'd bought an "open return" from a person and they had sold me a day return I'd feel I'm not at fault, and this seems similar. Any advice would be welcome.

Thank you,

Ned

 

[Fawkes Cat]

Hi all,

I wonder if anyone could give me some help. I recently bought a return ticket from Waterloo to Weymouth. I used the TrainPal app, clicked open return, and picked the cheapest ticket for the day. Two days later I came home and was confused when my ticket didn't work at the barrier. It turns out that TrainPal groups all return tickets without a specific time attached as "open returns", and the one I had bought was a day return. I've been given a penalty fare and I'm wondering if I have an angle to challenge it. I know I should have checked the small print more closely, but if I'd bought an "open return" from a person and they had sold me a day return I'd feel I'm not at fault, and this seems similar. Any advice would be welcome.

Thank you,

Ned

Welcome to the forum.

The problem that leaps out to me is that 'open return' isn't something with a definition on the railway. The way I see it used (on the LNER app, which is not TrainPal) is to mean 'return which is not tied to a particular train', so 'not an Advance ticket'.

But that is just how it's used in one place. So I don't think you are in a good position to argue that it should have taken the meaning that suited you best.

 

[AlterEgo]

Open return means any ticket which isn't tied to a particular train. These can include day tickets. That is how tickets are retailed on every platform I know I'm afraid.

If you post the notice here with your details removed we can see if it was filled in properly. You may have a technical line of appeal instead.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The problem that leaps out to me is that 'open return' isn't something with a definition on the railway. The way I see it used (on the LNER app, which is not TrainPal) is to mean 'return which is not tied to a particular train', so 'not an Advance ticket'.

But that is just how it's used in one place. So I don't think you are in a good position to argue that it should have taken the meaning that suited you best.

I too don't think the OP has much chance of an appeal succeeding, unless there are technical grounds (i.e. an error in issuing the penalty fare). However it is the case that there used in recent memory to be a ticket called a Standard/First Open Return, and it was valid for one month (now called the Anytime Return). I do thus think the use of the term "open return" to mean "not an Advance" to be a bit irresponsible when other terminology e.g. "flexible" exists and given how long the tickets actually called Open Return existed for before.

 

[WesternLancer]

I assume this happened at the barrier when trying to exit at Weymouth not at the barrier before boarding the return train?

 

[NedNedNed]

I assume this happened at the barrier when trying to exit at Weymouth not at the barrier before boarding the return train?

This happened trying to leave the station at the end of the return leg at waterloo

 

[methecooldude]

I assume this happened at the barrier when trying to exit at Weymouth not at the barrier before boarding the return train?

Weymouth doesn't have barriers... it should... it does not

 

[gray1404]

It would also be helpful if you could list the tickets you were sold. Plus a copy of the penalty fare notice.

 

[yorkie]

...The problem that leaps out to me is that 'open return' isn't something with a definition on the railway. The way I see it used (on the LNER app, which is not TrainPal) is to mean 'return which is not tied to a particular train', so 'not an Advance ticket'....

... that there used in recent memory to be a ticket called a Standard/First Open Return, and it was valid for one month (now called the Anytime Return). I do thus think the use of the term "open return" to mean "not an Advance" to be a bit irresponsible when other terminology e.g. "flexible" exists and given how long the tickets actually called Open Return existed for before.

There are three different interpretations for the term "open return" these days.

Firstly, the former Standard/First Open Return (SOR/FOR) ticket type, as used by British Rail and the early years of privatisation, has been called an "Anytime Return" since 2008, retaining the SOR/FOR codes to this day. However, these days, relatively few people us the term Open Return as exclusively referring to an SOR/FOR product.

Secondly, a significant proportion number of people refer to the term "Open return" colloquially to refer to any product (including one with time restrictions) that is valid for a calendar month on the return portion, i.e. the return portion has the same duration as the traditional Open Return product.

And finally, there is a third definition of the term "open return" which is that referred to by many websites, including Trainline from as far back as around 1999, which can be a time restricted ticket and doesn't even have to be valid for more than a day, but is not an "Advance"; colloquially this is more commonly known as a "walk-up" ticket, or occasionally as a "flexible" or "semi-flexible" ticket, and can be almost any type of ticket that isn't restricted to one specific service/itinerary

On another note, I advise against using TrainPal; I met them once as they wanted to have a partnership with the forum. We rejected them and chose to partner with Trainsplit instead. Our forum ticketing site has many more features and has far better splits than TrainPal will ever have (despite them claiming the opposite )

TrainPal don't have the sort of in-depth knowledge of the GB rail industry that this forum, and forum's ticketing site, benefits from.

 

[furlong]

You need to repeat the purchase process, take a video and screenshots. Look at any confirmation emails, ticket information provided prior to sale etc.
Then you need to put that alongside the various contractual and legal requirements to determine whether there is anything arguable here.
The National Rail Conditions of Travel place obligations on both parties. You can also consider consumer law.

You were requesting an 'open' ticket valid for a month. At what point in the process were you instead offered a ticket only valid for a day? How clear was this? What time of day was the outward journey (i.e. did a return the same day make any sense)? How many 'touchpoints' are there in the process at which it was clear you were buying or had bought a day ticket but which you didn't notice?

And as already suggested if you supply full details of the Penalty Fare, people can check to see if there might be any reasons it wasn't issued correctly (as is already suggested by what you wrote).

 

[WesternLancer]

This happened trying to leave the station at the end of the return leg at waterloo

Thanks. Sorry I missed read your journey direction. You’d completed the journey with the in valid ticket therefore, which was what I was thinking to check.

 

[NedNedNed]

Thanks for all the help, here is the notice and the ticket i bought

 

[methecooldude]

So I've requested from trainpal, selecting Open Return, a Weymouth to Waterloo ticket for tomorrow at 9AM
The first image is what it provided me, it clearly states "return same day", pressing other tickets however, does give you the off peak return which is valid for 1 month return

 

[yorkie]

Can you provide the full list of tickets held, and what the price and expiry date of each ticket was? Was it just one ticket, or a combination?

To me, an Off Peak Return is the name of a specific product, which is valid to return within a month, and retailers should not use the term to refer to Off Peak Day Return products (or any combination of tickets including Day Return tickets)

If you tweet TrainPal, I am happy to back you up from the forum's Twitter account; I believe TrainPal should be fully refunding the costs you have incurred.

 

[NedNedNed]

And here are the views on trainpal as i booked (mobile, android), it does say same day return, but it isn't glaringly obvious

 

[yorkie]

And here are the views on trainpal as i booked (mobile, android), it does say same day return, but it isn't glaringly obvious

Yes, but can you list the exact tickets you purchased? For each ticket, it would be useful to know the origin, destination and price paid. (If any Railcards are held, please mention that too). The price is also useful to enable us to identify the exact ticket type.

I've run out of the time I can spend on this, but others may be able to assist further...

 

[furlong]

It displays it as "open return" and hides the limited validity in the small print? Very naughty.

SWR still uses the terminology "Open Return" valid for a month on the definitive NRE website for an Anytime product:

Anytime Open Return (South Western Railway) | National Rail

Looking for Anytime Open Return (South Western Railway)? A portal into UK rail travel, including information on ticket purchase and promotions, train times and delays, and more.

www.nationalrail.co.uk

But we do need to know just what combination of tickets and fees made up that price!

 

[NedNedNed]

Yes, but can you list the exact tickets you purchased? For each ticket, it would be useful to know the origin, destination and price paid. (If any Railcards are held, please mention that too). The price is also useful to enable us to identify the exact ticket type.

I've run out of the time I can spend on this, but others may be able to assist further...

Thanks for looking. It booked them as a split ticket, Waterloo - Woking (off peak day return with network railcard) and Woking - Weymouth (anytime day return). I can't find a very detailed breakdown, but the original total was £90.60, and after savings from railcards etc came down to £56.50

 

[methecooldude]

It displays it as "open return" and hides the limited validity in the small print? Very naughty.

If you refer to my screenshots in #13, which is the page AFTER the ones shows by the OP, it quite clearly states in red/orange lettering that it's a same date return and when it's valid until.

 

[furlong]

Even without knowing the ticket combinations, if this was issued at 8pm, shouldn't the penalty have been based on the super off-peak single not the anytime?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Even without knowing the ticket combinations, if this was issued at 8pm, shouldn't the penalty have been based on the super off-peak single not the anytime?

While this was arguably the intention when Penalty Fares were changed to a supplement, the wording allows an Anytime to be charged and therefore all TOCs do.

 

[furlong]

If you refer to my screenshots in #13, which is the page AFTER the ones shows by the OP, it quite clearly states in red/orange lettering that it's a same date return and when it's valid until.

Your screenshots show different fares. It's best to be as close as possible to the same app version and device, and the same ticket selection - journey time, same railcard, same range of prices offered etc. Particularly given the split and railcard involved here.

 

[NedNedNed]

Yes sorry there is a third screen in the app. This is what I see on my phone

 

[furlong]

Did you already file an appeal?

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1) If you didn't appeal already you are just out-of-time and your options become more limited.

2) Otherwise an appeal on the basis that it was issued for the wrong amount ought to be straightforward as the fare charged must take into account "the day and time of the journey that person...has made" and it looks as though you were incorrectly charged a peak fare, failing to take into account the time of the journey as required by the regulations.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 1 Sep 2025 ==

The return journey was on a Sunday - assuming you boarded a direct service from Southampton, £80.20.

Also, did you already pay the Penalty Fare at the discounted rate?

 

[NedNedNed]

Hi, yes I made an appeal, they replied asking for more info, and I thought I'd check here to see if I was missing anything before replying. I also have paid the fare at the discount rate

 

[furlong]

Well "more information" would I presume be screenshots showing the problem.

They might not let you add further grounds to the current appeal, but for the next one you can focus on the amount of the PF being incorrect. Or you could try to short-circuit things and mention in your current reply that you've discovered this after submitting the appeal. When the amount is wrong you can argue it wasn't issued in accordance with the regulations and the appeal must be upheld.

It is firmly established that the penalty element consists of only the £50/£100. The fare added on top is the normal walk-up fare you'd have paid before boarding without using a railcard between stipulated stations.

 

[Egg Centric]

While this was arguably the intention when Penalty Fares were changed to a supplement, the wording allows an Anytime to be charged and therefore all TOCs do.

On what basis do you say that? I don't see how requiring day/time to be taken into consideration in the pricing can be construed as permitting a blanket Anytime policy.

(6) In this regulation “the full single fare applicable” is to be determined by reference to—

(a)the age of the person in question;

(b)the day and time of the journey that person is making, has made or intends to make, as the case may be; and

(c)the train and route that person is using, has used or intends to use.

 

[AlterEgo]

While this was arguably the intention when Penalty Fares were changed to a supplement, the wording allows an Anytime to be charged and therefore all TOCs do.

That's not correct. TOCs routinely charge the *appropriate* walk up fare (including off peaks and super off peaks) because the Regulations as quoted by @Egg Centric say that they must account for the time of the journey.

The Penalty Fare is not compliant on these grounds alone and can be appealed on this basis.

 

[D1062]

I too don't think the OP has much chance of an appeal succeeding, unless there are technical grounds (i.e. an error in issuing the penalty fare). However it is the case that there used in recent memory to be a ticket called a Standard/First Open Return, and it was valid for one month (now called the Anytime Return). I do thus think the use of the term "open return" to mean "not an Advance" to be a bit irresponsible when other terminology e.g. "flexible" exists and given how long the tickets actually called Open Return existed for before.

Back in 1970’s/80’s an open return used to have a three month validity,not sure when it changed to one month.

 

[father_jack]

Back in 1970’s/80’s an open return used to have a three month validity,not sure when it changed to one month.

It was a month on the return when I joined in 2003. Mind you the outward had a month on it too in those days, imagine the "clip" dodging that went on with them !!!