Scotland peak fare removal

[jthjth]

Today marks Scotrail abolishing peak fares. What happens about other operators within Scotland, such as LNER, Avanti, TPE, XC?

thanks

 

[Haywain]

What happens about other operators within Scotland, such as LNER, Avanti, TPE, XC?

Nothing. They must accept Scotrail priced interavailable tickets, as Scotrail must accept those issued by other TOCs.

 

[jthjth]

Nothing. They must accept Scotrail priced interavailable tickets, as Scotrail must accept those issued by other TOCs.

Ok, I phrased my question poorly. Will the non Scotrail operators abolish peak fares within Scotland?

 

[Gaelan]

Will the non Scotrail operators abolish peak fares within Scotland?

It depends entirely on the specific ticket you hold, and which operator is responsible for setting that fare.

Generally, most fares between two Scottish stations are set by ScotRail. If you hold such a ticket, peak restrictions no longer apply, regardless of which operator you are traveling on.

If you hold a ticket where the fare is set by another operator (most likely tickets to England, Wales, or stations south of Edinburgh/Glasgow mostly served by non-ScotRail operators - but also some "LNER only" tickets north of Edinburgh, and possibly a few others I'm forgetting), peak restrictions still apply, even on ScotRail. (Although I wouldn't be surprised if ScotRail staff didn't bother enforcing them.)

The best way to know for sure is to look at your ticket. If it has time restrictions, the text "See restrictions nre.co.uk/8F", "Restrictions apply. Please visit https://nationalrail.co.uk/3V for more information", or similar will appear somewhere on the ticket. (On digital tickets, you may have to tap a button to find it - for instance, Apple Wallet tickets show this text under the itinerary.)

 

[Butts]

I do hope the bargain LNER 1st Class Advance tickets between Edinburgh and Leuchars don't disappear.

Absolute bargain with the associated perks at under a tenner with a Railcard.

 

[jthjth]

It depends entirely on the specific ticket you hold, and which operator is responsible for setting that fare.

Generally, most fares between two Scottish stations are set by ScotRail. If you hold such a ticket, peak restrictions no longer apply, regardless of which operator you are traveling on.

If you hold a ticket where the fare is set by another operator (most likely tickets to England, Wales, or stations south of Edinburgh/Glasgow mostly served by non-ScotRail operators - but also some "LNER only" tickets north of Edinburgh, and possibly a few others I'm forgetting), peak restrictions still apply, even on ScotRail. (Although I wouldn't be surprised if ScotRail staff didn't bother enforcing them.)

The best way to know for sure is to look at your ticket. If it has time restrictions, the text "See restrictions nre.co.uk/8F", "Restrictions apply. Please visit https://nationalrail.co.uk/3V for more information", or similar will appear somewhere on the ticket. (On digital tickets, you may have to tap a button to find it - for instance, Apple Wallet tickets show this text under the itinerary.)

Does this mean that the Scottish Government does not control all fares within Scotland?

 

[Carntyne]

Does this mean that the Scottish Government does not control all fares within Scotland?

No, they control the fares of the train operators they control. ScotRail and Caledonian Sleeper.

 

[sad1e]

Would this change affect ranger validity times on rangers and Rovers such as the Central Scotland Rover and the Spirit of Scotland Rover as they aren't valid before 9:15 (Morning peaks) Monday-Friday. But since there are no peaks now does this change their Validity ?

 

[jthjth]

Would this change affect ranger validity times on rangers and Rovers such as the Central Scotland Rover and the Spirit of Scotland Rover as they aren't valid before 9:15 (Morning peaks) Monday-Friday. But since there are no peaks now does this change their Validity ?

According to https://www.scotrail.co.uk/tickets/peak-fares-gone-for-good the time restrictions for these tickets remain as before.

 

[Haywain]

Ok, I phrased my question poorly. Will the non Scotrail operators abolish peak fares within Scotland?

No, not if they set the fares.

 

[HighlandStorm]

Does this mean the weekday after 9am restriction is removed from Roundabout tickets in Glasgow?

If it does it’s a simple big step to improving the ticketing situation in the greater Glasgow area. Can now buy these from ScotRail vending machines - put destination as Roundabout. Alas you can’t load them to smartcards, which means you need to show them at subway ticket windows to get a subway RFID card.

As you can put subway tickets on ScotRail smartcards surely being able to add Rounabout tickets to smartcards at vending machines or in the ScotRail app would allow one card for both ScotRail and subway?

 

[timj]

will it become relatively more expensive to travel off-peak, if fares become mashed into one level?

 

[JonathanH]

will it become relatively more expensive to travel off-peak, if fares become mashed into one level?

Removing a higher level of fares psychologically makes off peak fares look expensive, but in this instance, the anytime fares have been removed in favour of the current off-peak fares so they haven't been 'mashed' into one level.

 

[Haywain]

Removing a higher level of fares psychologically makes off peak fares look expensive, but in this instance, the anytime fares have been removed in favour of the current off-peak fares so they haven't been 'mashed' into one level.

Although Super Off Peak fares have also been withdrawn, so some people may see an increase.

 

[BlueLeanie]

Generally, most fares between two Scottish stations are set by ScotRail. If you hold such a ticket, peak restrictions no longer apply, regardless of which operator you are traveling on.

Are there any (other than sleeper) tickets, that are priced by ScotRail, that cross the border?

 

[sad1e]

Are there any (other than sleeper) tickets, that are priced by ScotRail, that cross the border?

Don't Scotrail go to Carlisle , Do they price that ?

 

[Haywain]

Are there any (other than sleeper) tickets, that are priced by ScotRail, that cross the border?

Fares to Carlisle (and some points beyond) on/via the Glasgow & South Western.

 

[Gaelan]

Are there any (other than sleeper) tickets, that are priced by ScotRail, that cross the border?

Very much a technicality, but RailSail fares to Belfast (and other NI destinations) via Cairnryan are set by ScotRail, even from Penzance.

 

[dcsprior]

This change will make the train a lot more competitive with buses for people in/near to cities.

For example, there's now 7 stations where a return fares to Edinburgh Waverley (below) costs less than the £4.40 cost of two journeys on Lothian Buses:

1. South Gyle £3.80
2. Slateford £3.80
3. Kingsnowe £3.80
4. Edinburgh Park £4.00
5. Brunstane £4.30
6. Newcraighall £4.30
7. Musselburgh £4.30

This means that for every station which is both within the City boundary and inside the city bypass, it is now cheaper to get the train than the bus to the city centre (with the exception of Edinburgh Gateway, which is mainly meant as an interchange station anyway) - where previously the bus would've been the cheaper option at peak times. I presume this'll mean a lot more customers for the railway which could cover a large % of the cost of the price reduction?

There's a further 4 stations where the return fare is within £1 of the cost by bus:

1. Edinburgh Gateway £4.80
2. Shawfair £5.00
3. Wallyford £5.10
4. Curriehill £5.10

I expect the same is true of stations in/near other cities?

 

[NorthOxonian]

This means that for every station which is both within the City boundary and inside the city bypass, it is now cheaper to get the train than the bus to the city centre (with the exception of Edinburgh Gateway, which is mainly meant as an interchange station anyway) - where previously the bus would've been the cheaper option at peak times. I presume this'll mean a lot more customers for the railway which could cover a large % of the cost of the price reduction?

With the caveat that frequencies are often much lower - for instance Slateford has around 15 buses per hour into the city centre versus just one train per hour. There might be some modal shift but I don't expect anything huge which would overwhelm capacity nor bring in vast new revenue.

 

[deltic]

This change will make the train a lot more competitive with buses for people in/near to cities.

For example, there's now 7 stations where a return fares to Edinburgh Waverley (below) costs less than the £4.40 cost of two journeys on Lothian Buses:

1. South Gyle £3.80
2. Slateford £3.80
3. Kingsnowe £3.80
4. Edinburgh Park £4.00
5. Brunstane £4.30
6. Newcraighall £4.30
7. Musselburgh £4.30

This means that for every station which is both within the City boundary and inside the city bypass, it is now cheaper to get the train than the bus to the city centre (with the exception of Edinburgh Gateway, which is mainly meant as an interchange station anyway) - where previously the bus would've been the cheaper option at peak times. I presume this'll mean a lot more customers for the railway which could cover a large % of the cost of the price reduction?

There's a further 4 stations where the return fare is within £1 of the cost by bus:

1. Edinburgh Gateway £4.80
2. Shawfair £5.00
3. Wallyford £5.10
4. Curriehill £5.10

I expect the same is true of stations in/near other cities?

Was there a significant switch from bus to rail during the previous trial period on these routes? How many bus passengers are travelling to and from locations that are both near a rail station and how many have weekly tickets and use other services as well. I think only 4% of new rail trips during the previous trial came from bus.

 

[N1]

Was there a significant switch from bus to rail during the previous trial period on these routes? How many bus passengers are travelling to and from locations that are both near a rail station and how many have weekly tickets and use other services as well. I think only 4% of new rail trips during the previous trial came from bus.

Not a noticeable switch between modes. I would say most switch is going to be Glasgow Suburban, but now under-22 free bus travel is bedded in, then that will limit shift.

Anecdotally I would say traffic levels are now worse than the previous trial as commuting levels have increased slightly, so there may be slightly more shift.

I have emailed SPT to ask if they are going to adjust Zonecard prices, as the huge increase recently was based on Scotrail Peak fares being retained.

However very high single fares are still going to limit take-up. Example is Clarkston to Glasgow is now £4.70 for a day return, but there was only an Anytime Day Single previously, which is still priced at £4.50. (The super-off peak return was cheaper than the only available single).

 

[dcsprior]

With the caveat that frequencies are often much lower - for instance Slateford has around 15 buses per hour into the city centre versus just one train per hour. There might be some modal shift but I don't expect anything huge which would overwhelm capacity nor bring in vast new revenue.

True, I'd perhaps been guilty of extrapolating too much from where I live (Danderhall gets 3 buses / hour to city centre, Shawfair gets 2 trains/hour)
For Slateford, I'd guess there's maybe 15 mins out of every hour where the journey time including waiting would be less by train than by bus. From Shawfair, I'd guess it's more like 40 mins out of the hour.

Was there a significant switch from bus to rail during the previous trial period on these routes? How many bus passengers are travelling to and from locations that are both near a rail station and how many have weekly tickets and use other services as well. I think only 4% of new rail trips during the previous trial came from bus.

I don't know, but I've noticed a lot more publicity this time round, so would expect more impact.

and how many have weekly tickets and use other services as well.

Yeah, for those travelling often enough to justify a season ticket, bus still comfortably beats rail on price

I think only 4% of new rail trips during the previous trial came from bus.

I'm really surprised that number is so low!

 

[Gaelan]

Edinburgh is badly in need of integrated bus/rail ticketing I think - rail would be a lot more useful for me if ScotRail participated in the Ridacard/TapTapCap schemes.

 

[BlueLeanie]

Has this implementation by ScotRail caused some disruption to rail pricing?

Just looking, and I'm getting lots of Super-off-peak prices at times I wouldn't normally expect.

For example, this Friday I'm seeing a SOP single at 07:53 from Oxford to Edinburgh via London for £111 and other Scottish destinations for not much more.

 

[Watershed]

Has this implementation by ScotRail caused some disruption to rail pricing?

Just looking, and I'm getting lots of Super-off-peak prices at times I wouldn't normally expect.

For example, this Friday I'm seeing a SOP single at 07:53 from Oxford to Edinburgh via London for £111 and other Scottish destinations for not much more.

Why would you not expect to see a Super Off-Peak Single offered on that itinerary? The restriction code is 9F, which doesn't have any restrictions on arrivals into London on the outward leg. Only London departures are restricted, with Kings Cross departures being valid from 09:06 until 14:59, and then again from 18:59.

ScotRail's changes will no doubt affect other operators in some ways, but they haven't changed the restriction codes associated with other operators' fares.

 

[Egg Centric]

Is there any reason to think this will go differently to the trial, i.e. revenue not rising to extent to replace lost fares and the biggest winners being relatively affluent existing rail users?

(Not to say whether this is a good or bad thing - that's a matter for the Scots and the Scots government - but it seems odd to me that the same government that decided not to do something because of the above effect has changed its mind with not a great deal changing that I can see?)

 

[Gaelan]

Is there any reason to think this will go differently to the trial, i.e. revenue not rising to extent to replace lost fares and the biggest winners being relatively affluent existing rail users?

(Not to say whether this is a good or bad thing - that's a matter for the Scots and the Scots government - but it seems odd to me that the same government that decided not to do something because of the above effect has changed its mind with not a great deal changing that I can see?)

The trial took place while ScotRail was running a temporary timetable with lots of gaps, which may have affected things.

In any case, the U-turn will have been because the SNP realized they need something to show off at the general election next year.

 

[deltic]

Is there any reason to think this will go differently to the trial, i.e. revenue not rising to extent to replace lost fares and the biggest winners being relatively affluent existing rail users?

(Not to say whether this is a good or bad thing - that's a matter for the Scots and the Scots government - but it seems odd to me that the same government that decided not to do something because of the above effect has changed its mind with not a great deal changing that I can see?)

I would have thought not. Crowding and train loading data is not in the public domain for Scotland, I assume there are no capacity constraints on the network that will cause problems if demand does rise more than expected?

 

[N1]

I had a response from SPT stating that Glasgow Zonecard prices will be reviewed before end of September in response to peak fare removal. (doesn't mean they will actually change the price)