Did not evade fair. TOCs behaving like gangsters.

[damola3]

Hi,

I have an issue appealing a penalty fare. I will give you a brief explanation and have the longer version I made a FB post of below.

At the end of June, I decided to go to a local festival midday to a station that's 10 minutes away. At my home station, there was nobody at the ticket office and my TOC C2C had yet another issue with their purchase system meaning that I was not able to purchase a ticket on their app and machine.

When I got to my destination station, I had a dispute with an officer. There were up to 10 security at the gates and I went to explain what's happened. To cut things short, an explosive argument and quite frankly inappropriate behaviour. The ticket officer accused me of attemting to commit fraud, when they know that there are often outages and issues with ticket purchases on C2C. Their apps and machines often have outages. In fact, 2 days later, I took a train ride to a local station and had to purchase my ticket at my destination, explaining to security.

I was infuriated at the ticket officer for accusing me of fraud. I explained that she did not know me, nor could she disprove what I say. She then said that I should have used contactless, even though Railcard Regulations state that I have the right to but a ticket at my destination if there's no means to purchase a Railcard ticket. Note that this is not TFL. She said that they would not physically let me out of the station unless I paid a penalty fare, knowing that this is against the law. She said that I do this or go back to my destination station. Now, for quick context, the last time I passed her in another local station, she subjected me to a degrading spot-check upon seeing my face.

They are not police officers. They possess no right to actually apprehend me, ferry me on a train back and prevent me from leaving a station. Knowing this, I could have left the station, but I agreed to take my name and details down upon speaking to another (more reasonable officer). I personally believe that the ticket officer deliberately did not issue a receipt in order to spite me.

I recently received a letter threatening use of a debt-collection agency, which can dock my credit score, if I did not pay within 14 days of the letter. Of course, I received the letter 9 days after its date via Royal Mail. It takes max 2 days for items to come via Royal Mail. They deliberately sent it after the date of the letter. They operate like Gangsters. I have asked my TOC for CCTV footage if they even have it and IRCAS denied my appeal. They said that it's my responsibility to take care of the receipt after issuing the penalty fare (even though I don't ever remember receiving any) and rejected out of hand since it's over 21 days later!

I originally appealed on the grounds that it was not lawful in the first place, as I have a right to purchase via railcard discount. I have asked my TOC for CCTV footage of the officer (they keep it for 3 months), but I fear that they will simply lie and claim that they don't have it, or refuse to hand it over as they often do.

I would like some advice on how to proceed further. I paid the £100 to avoid issues with mortgages etc in the future; as is the nature of the threat. I have decided to try Section 75, as I paid the penalty fare with a credit card. I believe that it's false representation to say I may travel with a valid ticket if there is no means to purchase a railcard ticket according to regulations, although I'm sure that there will be difficulty with the bank.

Long Version:

I'd like to give a overview of an absolutely dreadful experience that I've had with C2C this weekend, some rights that we have as consumers and an explanation behind the IT aspects some issues.
It includes an illegal threat to apprehend me by a ticket inspector and some ignorance on their behalf of National Rail Conditions of Travel.
Please do excuse my French below. I was agitated for good reason.
Before I go into the story, my background is that I sell IT Consulting and software development services via my own company. I have a few ideas why C2C have so many IT issues.
Firstly, as you can see in the video below, the button to find tickets on the ticket machine was not working today at my home station. One reason that the touchscreen has issues measuring presses is the type of technology they use.
The one on the C2C machines is called a "resistance touchscreen" it registers input by the amount of force generated on the screen. These are the cheapest of the cheap touchscreens. They're inaccurate, so it can be difficult to press a button from the right angle, unless your viewpoint is right above the screen.
I also suspect maybe that text of the button is programmed to register presses, rather than the entire purple button itself.
Secondly, it's common that C2Cs new IT backend can br very slow at showing tickets to purchase on both app and ticket machine. I suspect a very specific reason for this.
In the background, there are computers running C2Cs own code that's connected to their databases to relay this information. Of course, 1 computer alone can't serve the entire network without being incredibly slow. We have what's called a "devops" configuration. When demand is high, it will scale up the number of virtual machines that are rented from a cloud provider. Depending on their configuration, it could take a few minutes, 20-30 mins or even an hour.
It's possible that some times, a demand surge isn't expected and that C2Cs IT system have few virtual machines running. This would overload the system and make it very slow. You want your number of virtual machines serving the network to be low, to save money on infrastructure costs.
Thirdly, their app and their ticket machines appear to be connected to the same backend. I believe that ticket offices use a legacy system, hence I have no issues at ticket machines when their new system is tripping up.
Now let's go to my horrific Saturday. I live a few mins away from Thorpe Bay station. I decided to try and purchase tickets via the C2C app approx 15 minutes away from train departure. On the walk on the way to the station, I was on the app, going back to the homepage and tapping on "Find times and Tickets"
The app was not only slow, but timing out before it had the chance to display train times for tickets.
I arrived at the station just before the train pulled in and there was nobody at the station. No security or ticket officer. Just those dreadful pink ticket machines.
I knew that there was no hope in getting a ticket within a reasonable timespan, given that the machines never show tickets when the app does not, so I hopped on the train intending to purchase a ticket on the way there. It still was not working, it was slow and the app was timing out when I selected any train times.
I arrived at Leigh intending to purchase the ticket at my destination, which is where their were at least 8 ticket officers + fraud investigators etc.
When I explained my situation, I was pulled aside by an Eastern European looking lady, who gave me an experience from hell. She attempted to force me to pay a fine on the spot. I quoted Rail Fares Rules 2002 and insisted that I should pay only the single fare from my origin to my destination. Now post-hoc, it turns out that this legislation had been outdated and that the new legislation from 2018 increased the minimum penalty fare, that they may charge.
What made me incredulous is that she accused me of dishonesty and I explained that she couldn't prove anything. I told her that she was being unprofessional and that while I understand that she has a job to do, she is not a criminal prosecution lawyer. I am more than happy to follow rules and procedure, but I am not there to be bullied at the dictat of an ignorant inspector.
She then stated that I should get a train back or they would keep me in the station. I'd been arguing back and forth by 5-10 minutes back this point over Rail legislation and fines. I told her quite responsibility that they have no right to force me on a train or apprehend me in the station. There is no basis in law to restrict my movement in private property. I have a right to leave to leave the station.
Here's her first mistake. She insisted that they could and would keep me in the station. As soon as she says that, a Criminal Act has been committed. Quite frankly, I said this to make the case that I was only remaining there to iron out the issue in good faith.
She told me that I should've been using contactless if the machines and app wouldn't have been working. I explained that I had wanted to use a railcard, which is why I do not use contactless. She insisted that I should have purchased a full priced ticket with contactless anyways. The same contactless which C2C have been telling customers not to use.
Before I continue further, you must've heard about the insane penalty fare rules and thousands of ludicrous criminal convictions handed out in the news. Simply for people forgetting their railcard expired a few weeks ago, or travelling on peak with an off peak ticket (which was handed out at the time of departure).
Rail offences by law are a "strict liability" offence, meaning that they are always a criminal act, regardless of intention to deceive or not. The Rail system and its legislation is so complex, that theoretically, everybody that has traveled on the UK rail network could be handed a criminal record.
To continue, there are exceptions to this law.
1) There are no facilities within your available means of payment at the time to purchase a valid ticket.
2) You are ordinarily able to purchase a travel ticket at the station at that time of day with your available means of payment.
https://www.railcard.co.uk/help/railcard-terms-and-conditions/
Now, there's another layer to this. According to 2.7 the National Railcard Terms of Service (which is legally binding), if there are no facilities to purchase a railcard ticket at the time, then you are classified as having no facilities to purchase a valid ticket at the time. In other words, they have no right to force you into a full priced ticket if you can't purchase one with your railcard. The lady was wrong here.
https://www.26-30railcard.co.uk/help/railcard-terms-conditions/
I insisted that I had a record of honesty and she requested my smartcard. If you are not all aware, any card that any company issues you is their property. I was 100% aware of that. I was willing to show that I have a record for honesty, and since I was not hostile, I was trying to display a degree of cooperation. This didn't stop her disrespect. Her colleague who said that he conducts fraud investigations came to step in who took the card and inspect my previous ticket purchases.
He then specified that my previous train journeys had been purchased under "season ticket". I didn't understand what the issue was. He explained to me that one cannot use a railcard simultaneously with a season ticket. He then understood and said that the app probably just says "season ticket" even when one buys a travelcard. This means that C2C had a data validation error on their part.
I voiced my frustration and what had happened, so he defused things and understood that I quite clearly wasn't trying to deflect payment. He handed the smartcard to the lady, as I agreed for them to take my information down. She proceeded to lie and claim that she only "repeated what I said". Earlier, I had tried to show her that the app was not performing properly. It was slow and it took multiple times of trying to find tickets, a very long loading screen and me going back to restart it again. That's when she insisted that I lied. I suggested at this point that maybe she mean that she couldn't prove it at the time and that she intended to say that.
Nope, she remained arrogant and straight up lied, saying that she "only repeated what I said". That's worse is that a few minutes into this incident, she told me that she's 'recording this interaction on her bodycam for her own safety'. I was incredulous because she had accused me of lying, she'd been unprofessional and when I explained that I actually developed IT systems like this for a living, she was rude, dismissive and arrogant. She then proceeds to act like I'm a criminal and then uses threats to detain me or ship me back to my origin station.
Once given their tablet/phone to enter my details, she asked me for ID in such a condescending manner. I refused and entered my correct name + address. According to rail bylaws and penalty fares legislation, this is all the information that I must give. If you remember, she had hold of my smartcard and decided to look it up (as part of her power move).
Honestly, this really understates the level of disrespect, condescension and arrogance of this female ticket inspector. What's worse is that she's committed a criminal offence, when she threatened to not let me out of the station, when I suggested that she had no right to do so, or send me on a train back to where I came from.
False imprisonment as a Civil Tort is a non-liability offence, meaning that I don't even need to prove intent. It's also a criminal offense, that she committed on her bodycam. I am respectful, but I do not react favourably to bullying and intimidation.
I was so incredulous afterwards, that in my head, I was going to contact the CPS to make the allegation of unlawful apprehension and even appeal to the High Court if they refused to proceed further. The only way she would get out of it is if C2C would destroy the video evidence that she ironically provided.
I calmed down by the next day and luckily, I am not so vindictive, though I will have harsh words for C2C via complaint and via the regulator. It does say that some people do go to stupid lengths to antagonise people and do not like to admit to when they've made a mistake or done something that they shouldn't have.
The man who said he investigated fraud was taking a break outside when I spoke to him again. I had been incredulous due to poor ticketing experiences in the past, like having issues with a zone 2-5 travelcard in the past within London. He explained to me that when one travels into London from Essex, the ticket is not valid, as you would've passed from zone 6 on the way in. He told me that people often have innocuous errors due to such a complex ticketing system.
I had often had issues in the past, as at Southend Central, the security on the back entrance of the station were often agency staff who hadn't been trained. Many times I had come with a ticket, which hadn't let me through the gate because it was a railcard ticket. There is a error code on the gates which explain the reason why. Sometimes, he staff didn't understand that this was because they were supposed to check my railcard and there was a specific error code for this.
Many people at Southend Central used to barge past or climb the barriers, so they tightened security checks and told security many times that they aren't to let a single person through without a working ticket. Since they weren't trained on the error codes, I've almost been denied entry and essentially engaged in a shouting match with security on multiple occasions.
To be fair to C2C, they fixed this after I formalised my complaint. There are also many other other unpleasant occasions that I've been denied entry for a good 15 minutes because of poor training and poor data management on C2Cs app.
This rant is over, though this information will form the basis of a complaint that I will directly make to C2C and SRA (Strategic Rail Authority).

 

[Fawkes Cat]

Hi,

I have an issue appealing a penalty fare. I will give you a brief explanation and have the longer version I made a FB post of below.

At the end of June, I decided to go to a local festival midday to a station that's 10 minutes away. At my home station, there was nobody at the ticket office and my TOC C2C had yet another issue with their purchase system meaning that I was not able to purchase a ticket on their app and machine.

When I got to my destination station, I had a dispute with an officer. There were up to 10 security at the gates and I went to explain what's happened. To cut things short, an explosive argument and quite frankly inappropriate behaviour. The ticket officer accused me of attemting to commit fraud, when they know that there are often outages and issues with ticket purchases on C2C. Their apps and machines often have outages. In fact, 2 days later, I took a train ride to a local station and had to purchase my ticket at my destination, explaining to security.

I was infuriated at the ticket officer for accusing me of fraud. I explained that she did not know me, nor could she disprove what I say. She then said that I should have used contactless, even though Railcard Regulations state that I have the right to but a ticket at my destination if there's no means to purchase a Railcard ticket. Note that this is not TFL. She said that they would not physically let me out of the station unless I paid a penalty fare, knowing that this is against the law. She said that I do this or go back to my destination station. Now, for quick context, the last time I passed her in another local station, she subjected me to a degrading spot-check upon seeing my face.

They are not police officers. They possess no right to actually apprehend me, ferry me on a train back and prevent me from leaving a station. Knowing this, I could have left the station, but I agreed to take my name and details down upon speaking to another (more reasonable officer). I personally believe that the ticket officer deliberately did not issue a receipt in order to spite me.

I recently received a letter threatening use of a debt-collection agency, which can dock my credit score, if I did not pay within 14 days of the letter. Of course, I received the letter 9 days after its date via Royal Mail. It takes max 2 days for items to come via Royal Mail. They deliberately sent it after the date of the letter. They operate like Gangsters. I have asked my TOC for CCTV footage if they even have it and IRCAS denied my appeal. They said that it's my responsibility to take care of the receipt after issuing the penalty fare (even though I don't ever remember receiving any) and rejected out of hand since it's over 21 days later!

I originally appealed on the grounds that it was not lawful in the first place, as I have a right to purchase via railcard discount. I have asked my TOC for CCTV footage of the officer (they keep it for 3 months), but I fear that they will simply lie and claim that they don't have it, or refuse to hand it over as they often do.

I would like some advice on how to proceed further. I paid the £100 to avoid issues with mortgages etc in the future; as is the nature of the threat. I have decided to try Section 75, as I paid the penalty fare with a credit card. I believe that it's false representation to say I may travel with a valid ticket if there is no means to purchase a railcard ticket according to regulations, although I'm sure that there will be difficulty with the bank.

Long Version:

Welcome to the forum.

I'll admit I haven't yet read your long version which may explain all this, but it would be really helpful for us if you could show us everything you have received from the railway and so on, and what you sent to them (n.b. please redact everything to hide your name, address and personal details - that's not stuff you'll want to share with everyone on the internet). That will help us to identify exactly how the railway has been pursuing you, and what stage the process has got to - which will help us make suggestions as to what you should do next.

 

[fandroid]

The OP states that they have paid the penalty, so there shouldn't be any risk if they are fairly open. It might even be useful if things like reference numbers allow any C2C person to check back on the data at their end.

 

[damola3]

Hi,
I am not able to see my original appeal, but I essentially made the case I made in the long version, that there was no means to buy a ticket with a railcard at the origin station. I stated that I have no recollection of ever receving a copy at the penalty far and that I've sent a subject access request to my TOC for CCTV footage.

This is what they said in return:

Re: Penalty Fare Notice CC754036


Thank you for your correspondence concerning the above referenced Penalty Fare Notice issued by C2c Rail Ltd


on Saturday 28 June 2025.


The Appeals Service (AS) is independent of C2c Rail Ltd. AS provide a service which gives the recipient of a


Penalty Fare Notice the opportunity to dispute the issue. To ensure fairness and consistency, AS follow a Code of


Practice compliant with the criteria set out in the Railways (Penalty Fares) (Amendment) Regulations 2022 in the


assessment of Penalty Fare Notice appeals.


Appeals must be received no later than 21 days from the date of issue. Clear instruction on appeal submission,


including the timescales involved, are detailed on the Penalty Fare Notice issued by C2c Rail Ltd.


Your appeal arrived at this office after the deadline. Having viewed this submission fully, there are no mitigating


circumstances for consideration and the right to appeal has been forfeited.


It remains the responsibility of the passenger to ensure the safekeeping of their notice after issue.


Finally, as an appeals service which is independent of C2c Rail Ltd, we are unable to investigate complaints


concerning C2c Rail Ltd service or staff conduct. Please therefore contact C2c Rail Ltd direct with your requests


and concerns.


Yours sincerely


Sandra Parker


Appeals Service


MR

They said absolutely nothing about the validity of the penalty fare in the first place. I'm pretty sure that there is no legal basis to issue me with a penalty fare in the first place, because there was no means for me to purchase a ticket with a railcard.

Secondly, I sent a Subject Access Request on the 24th August as a basis to complain about improper/illegal behaviour by the officer and also to get my facts straight with my account of never receiving a copy of the penalty fare. I personally think that the officer deliberately did not give me any copy, so that I would be threatened with a larger fine and miss the window off appeal, to spite me for not paying the fine on the sport.

Dear DPO,


I was issued with a penalty fare on the 28th June 2025 at Leigh-on-Sea station. I would like body-cam footage from the Revenue Protection Officer that issued the penalty fare and any C2C employees involved at the time. I would also like a copy of the penalty fare itself. My reference for the Penalty Fare Notice is: CCxxxxxx.

Yours Sincerely,

I personally believe that they will simply deny that they have it. An issue I have is that they could just deny that they have any footage, as I'm adamant that I never received a thing. She made me sign the form issuing the fare on some form of tablet and I wondered when I would receive a paper copy which never came.

I haven't made a complaint to my TOC yet. I sent the above email for a SAR with CCTV to get my facts straight. According to C2C, they keep CCTV footage for 3 months, for any footage which relates to disputes and law enforcement.

In spite of that, the penalty fare surely is not legal in the first place, as the National Railcard Terms of Conditions are legally binding. and there was no means to purchase a railcard ticket at the time. Even if they were, I'm surely have consumer rights as the regulations specify that I may travel without a valid ticket, if there's no means to purchase a railcard ticket.

Below is an email that I sent requesting the documentation for the penalty fare. I haven't seen the whole thing once. under threat and duress, I signed what they asked me to sign at the station, but I have not read any form of documentation or claim by the officers once, hence I emailed my ToC on the 24th:

To whom it may concern,

I would like a copy of the penalty fare notice: CCxxxxxx. I was issued with a penalty fare notice on the 28th June 2025 at Leigh-on-Sea Station, but I’m not sure that I even received any receipt and neither did I receive email correspondence.

I had intended to appeal and it is only now that I received a letter threatening a fine within 14 days of the letter’s date, which was appallingly 9 days prior to me receiving this. It does not take 9 days for a Royal Mail letter to complete its journey, so this is akin to operating like gangsters.

As a result, I would like an original copy right away on top of my SAR to evaluate my options before taking this further.

Yours Sincerely,

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 1 Sep 2025 ==

The OP states that they have paid the penalty, so there shouldn't be any risk if they are fairly open. It might even be useful if things like reference numbers allow any C2C person to check back on the data at their end.

The worst thing about this debacle (I heavily recommend reading the long-version for public interesting) is the degrading treatment I've received for being a law-abiding citizen.

This is the first time where the system has taught me that I have no rights, even if I follow the letter of the law given. Revenue Protection Officers are not Police Officers and have no rights to apprehend me. They are not supposed to use threats of apprehension to coerce me into paying a fine on the spot. They tried to intimidate me into giving up my right of appeal. I don't think that the penalty fare was even lawful in the first place; regulations aside, I'm adamant that I was never even given a copy of the penalty fare.

They say that they can send a debt-collection agency and dock my credit score. Sending letters a week after they were dated with a threat? They act like gangsters. I certainly will be taking this to my local MP at a minimum and possibly even further for public interest.

 

[fandroid]

I think you need to seriously moderate your approach. Calling them gangsters in an email to them is only likely to have further reduced any likelihood of a review or cooperation.

 

[Haywain]

I arrived at the station just before the train pulled in and there was nobody at the station. No security or ticket officer. Just those dreadful pink ticket machines.
I knew that there was no hope in getting a ticket within a reasonable timespan, given that the machines never show tickets when the app does not, so I hopped on the train intending to purchase a ticket on the way there. It still was not working, it was slow and the app was timing out when I selected any train times.

Cutting through all the other stuff, you boarded a train without a ticket and claimed the ticket machine wasn't working, when you hadn't even tried to use it. That is a criminal offence under the Railway Byelaws, so a Penalty Fare is getting off lightly. I think you should put this down to experience and stop trying to be an expert, because you are failing - the SRA ceased to exist nearly 20 years ago. And as noted above, your apparent attitude may go a long way to explain the outcomes you are experiencing.

 

[damola3]

I think you need to seriously moderate your approach. Calling them gangsters in an email to them is only likely to have further reduced any likelihood of a review or cooperation.

Hi,

I did not call my ToC gangsters. I emailed my ToC and stated that the behaviour of IRCAS is what you'd expect from Gangsters. Not the ToC itself.

I do not believe being hyperbolic either. Writing a threat from the date of the letter and them posting it a week later is pretty much the behaviour of gangsters. It was important for me to conceptualise it this way, because I'm expressing wider dissatisfaction with the system. I certainly will make an issue with an MP, as they have the power to raise issues which are in the public interest.

I personally think that this act is scandalous and it's no way to treat members of the public. Threatening me when I haven't received communications is one thing. Using the tactics of gangsters to coerce payments from members of the public is another thing.

With all of that being said, that's the only think that I have or will say from now that can be considered immoderate from my ToC.

I sent that email separately from my initial SAR. I am banking on the fact that they are supposed to hold the CCTV footage for 3 months according to their own policies. If we have a situation where I wasn't issued with any penalty fare (documentation) and have no means to pay the fine, then I seriously question what rights that any of us do have.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 1 Sep 2025 ==

Cutting through all the other stuff, you boarded a train without a ticket and claimed the ticket machine wasn't working, when you hadn't even tried to use it. That is a criminal offence under the Railway Byelaws, so a Penalty Fare is getting off lightly. I think you should put this down to experience and stop trying to be an expert, because you are failing - the SRA ceased to exist nearly 20 years ago. And as noted above, your apparent attitude may go a long way to explain the outcomes you are experiencing.

Hi,

Here is me trying to use a ticket machine 2 days after this issue. Years ago, they cut the number of machines as the station to one and switched IT system. The machines do not work at the same time as the app. You can see on the below link an example.

20250630_134020 1

The bylaws state:

No person shall be in breach of Byelaw 17(1) or 17(2) if: (i) there were no facilities in working order for the issue or validation of any ticket at the time when, and the station where, he began his journey; or

I have had this issue many times over. The machines were for sure not working at the time.

Many times have I had the machine and app open at the same time and neither works. It only works at the ticket machine, where they have a different IT System.

I think you should put this down to experience and stop trying to be an expert, because you are failing - the SRA ceased to exist nearly 20 years ago. And as noted above, your apparent attitude may go a long way to explain the outcomes you are experiencing.

Thus far, it can only be argued that my attitude is only a factor with the Revenue Protection Officer and I don't see how it's reasonable to have a higher standard for a member of the public than a trained professional. The Officer was factually incorrect to say that I have to purchase a full priced ticket, if no Railcard discount is available. It states so in the regulations.

What about the officer 'trying to be an expert' and being wrong? Point is that it cuts two ways.

 

[fandroid]

I think we need to clarify what happened at your starting station. I read it as you finding a closed ticket office and that you could neither buy a ticket online nor from the ticket machine. Is that the case? The RPI seems to have accepted that you couldn't use the machine, by telling you that you should have used contactless (thereby forfeiting your Railcard discount). Can you please explain the full situation at that station and what you tried to do to buy a ticket.

 

[damola3]

Many times have I had the machine and app open at the same time and neither works. It only works at the ticket machine, where they have a different IT System.

My bad. I meant to say 'ticket office'. I can prove for sure that the app and machines never work at the same time.

I have been stood in front of both at the same time many times and in those circumstances, only the ticket machine works.

 

[skyhigh]

I have been stood in front of both at the same time many times and in those circumstances, only the ticket machine works.

Did you try the ticket machine on the day in question? Yes or no.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 1 Sep 2025 ==

Sending letters a week after they were dated with a threat? They act like gangsters.

Royal Mail has been very unreliable in recent weeks/months. You cannot say that they have been deliberately mis-dating letters with any certainty, you definitely don't have any evidence of this - and you are essentially accusing them of Fraud.

 

[damola3]

I think we need to clarify what happened at your starting station. I read it as you finding a closed ticket office and that you could neither buy a ticket online nor from the ticket machine. Is that the case? The RPI seems to have accepted that you couldn't use the machine, by telling you that you should have used contactless (thereby forfeiting your Railcard discount). Can you please explain the full situation at that station and what you tried to do to buy a ticket.

From 10 minutes before I left, I was trying to buy a ticket and on the way there via their app. When I arrived at the station, I attempted to purchase a ticket via the app, but their system was non-functional for reasons above.

I was 5-10 yards from the machine, but I knew that the machine wasn't working as they make web requests to the same servers. I documented the same issue in the video above, when they weren't working simultaneously.

Along this train line, it's well known that the apps and machines have downtime simultaneously. I have made complaints to the ToC before about different/various issues regarding their IT systems. They appear to use a legacy system for their ticket offices (never have a problem there).

The context is that my ToC has been cracking down on fare evasion as people jump over/walk through the barriers near me. Ironically, some of the procedures taken may be due to some of my complaints. At a local station, security (agency staff) they were told that they should not let anyone through if their tickets did not work. Mine did not, as I had a railcard and the error code on the barriers (I know about this) means that they're supposed to check my railcard. I have had disputes with security who would not let me in the station, because they did not know that they were supposed to check my railcard.

I have had to make a complaint to my ToC and to be fair, they trained their staff better within a few weeks. They issued scannable barcodes etc which have also had issues. Their ticketing system is a mess and barely functional. One time, they issued me a barcode for a London Travelcard for Zones 2-6 when they rolled our barcodes and I was arguing with the Bus Driver in NorthWest London for 10 minutes who delayed the bus and accused me of fraud. He claimed that he knows that my ToC do not issue barcodes etc.

I have had many horrific experiences with my ToC who have had ticketing issues amongst consumers for many years.

At my local station, all of the staff know me, so they let me through without question when I have issues. I do not ever travel without tickets unless there are some kind of IT issues, so it's quite upsetting given the previous issues that I've had with my ToC.

 

[Haywain]

Here is me trying to use a ticket machine 2 days after this issue.

Two days after is neither here nor there. The only thing relevant is what happened on the day in question.

Writing a threat from the date of the letter and them posting it a week later

Have you any evidence that this happened or does it revolve around your apparent faith in the Royal Mail? In much of the country deliveries are pretty random but not daily, and the idea that even first class post can be relied upon to arrive within two days isn't borne out by experience.

 

[ollyexe2808]

Another thought in my head is (and for future reference if this is a common problem), what were the options for using a different app? So if C2C wasn't working, could you have used an alternative app such as that of another TOC?

I know this doesn't directly impact your dispute but I am thinking of things that may have caused them to bolster their argument that you had exhausted ways and means to purchase a valid ticket.

 

[damola3]

Did you try the ticket machine on the day in question? Yes or no.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 1 Sep 2025 ==


Royal Mail has been very unreliable in recent weeks/months. You cannot say that they have been deliberately mis-dating letters with any certainty, you definitely don't have any evidence of this - and you are essentially accusing them of Fraud.

I have already stated no.

I have stated that I was able to reproduce the error 2 days later, when the machines and app do not work simultaneously. I probably can reproduce this again. According to the regulations, what matters is whether they were not working and I think that this would be easy to prove.

Secondly, my entire treatment from the improper conduct by the officer, lack of receipt for the penalty fair and an extortionate system, that forces the use of Premium Lines if you wish to call IRCAS to me suggests a recurring these. Threatening members of the public with apprehension if they do not pay fines on the spot is in no way ethical or legal.

There's a lack of reasonable recourse or even means of making an appeal, a quite inhumane system and we cannot pretend that there has not been a prosecutions scandal. People being convicted without even receiving letters? The actual fine is the least of my worries.

I would more even like to know what actions I have have against the Revenue Protection Officer who's conduct was certainly improper at best.

 

[Haywain]

what matters is whether they were not working and I think that this would be easy to prove.

It wouldn't be easy to prove as you have absolutely no evidence other than you supposition.

There's a lack of reasonable recourse or even means of making an appeal,

A Penalty Fare has 3 opportunities to submit an appeal.

we cannot pretend that there has not been a prosecutions scandal. People being convicted without even receiving letters? The actual fine is the least of my worries.

You have not been prosecuted so this is not relevant.

I would more even like to know what actions I have have against the Revenue Protection Officer who's conduct was certainly improper at best.

You can make a complaint to c2c, but that's it.

 

[damola3]

Two days after is neither here nor there. The only thing relevant is what happened on the day in question.

Have you any evidence that this happened or does it revolve around your apparent faith in the Royal Mail? In much of the country deliveries are pretty random but not daily, and the idea that even first class post can be relied upon to arrive within two days isn't borne out by experience.

On your first point, the fact is that this issue can be reproduced all year round. The app and ticket machines make web requests to the same servers, meaning that they both cannot work at the same time if one is not returning ticket information. This is simply how it's been for years since they cut the number of machines and staff to save on costs. I don't understand how the ToC could hypothetically convict me, when there is reasonable doubt against any claim that there ticket was means of purchasing a valid ticket.

The ToC in the past have had commuters waiting over half an hour in the morning (been there) in the line to purchase tickets from the office, when their online ticketing systems do not work. If you commute for example, then it's impractical to rely on purchasing tickets at the station. They more or less expect customers to use their apps/smartcards.

On the second, I live in Southeast England and we deliver letters for an online business every single day. Royal Mail delays only ever occur here leading up to Christmas time.

I don't really give the benefit of the doubt, given how the whole system has treated me and given the scandal with respect to convictions handed out to people with no communications.

 

[skyhigh]

given the scandal with respect to convictions handed out to people with no communications.

What scandal is this?

 

[damola3]

It wouldn't be easy to prove as you have absolutely no evidence other than you supposition.

A Penalty Fare has 3 opportunities to submit an appeal.

You have not been prosecuted so this is not relevant.

You can make a complaint to c2c, but that's it.

On the appeal. They have told me that I am not able to lodge another appeal, as the first was submitted after the 21 days.

They stated that:

Your appeal arrived at this office after the deadline. Having viewed this submission fully, there are no mitigating


circumstances for consideration and the right to appeal has been forfeited.


It remains the responsibility of the passenger to ensure the safekeeping of their notice after issue.

I stated in my appeal that I have no recollection of ever receiving a copy. In fact, I took a look through my rucksack when I arrived home later that evening. I remember when the lady was issuing the fare on her tablet/machine, I questioned whether I was going to receive a receipt. In the following weeks, I kept an eye out for my email.

I have ADHD, which is why I have asked my ToC for CCTV for getting my facts straight, but I heavily suspect that the Officer deliberately did not give me one.

Surely the Revenue Protection Officers are subject to a regulator, which can handle complaints?

 

[WesternLancer]

I have already stated no.

I have stated that I was able to reproduce the error 2 days later, when the machines and app do not work simultaneously. I probably can reproduce this again. According to the regulations, what matters is whether they were not working and I think that this would be easy to prove.

Secondly, my entire treatment from the improper conduct by the officer, lack of receipt for the penalty fair and an extortionate system, that forces the use of Premium Lines if you wish to call IRCAS to me suggests a recurring these. Threatening members of the public with apprehension if they do not pay fines on the spot is in no way ethical or legal.

There's a lack of reasonable recourse or even means of making an appeal, a quite inhumane system and we cannot pretend that there has not been a prosecutions scandal. People being convicted without even receiving letters? The actual fine is the least of my worries.

I would more even like to know what actions I have have against the Revenue Protection Officer who's conduct was certainly improper at best.

A few observations

- The inspector suggested you go back to your starting station and buy a ticket - we saw a case of this a week or so ago on here (can't find thread to link at the moment) - it seems this is an 'informal' option that some inspectors use as a way to 'let people off'. But I suspect when things escalated in terms of the discussion you had, that option closed off

- Sorry to ask this but are you sure you were actually issued with a Penalty Fare (not reported for investigation or what is often called a TIR report)? Sorry if I have missed an answer to that but you have not uploaded any paperwork / letters as yet I don't think.

- I think a problem you will have with an Appeal is an ability to prove the ticket machine would not work if you didn't' try or take a picture etc. These machines are supposed to 'self report if they are out of order' and C2C would have their own records of that but having seen various threads on here over time I doubt that this is a reliable process for the self reporting - although that is a hunch

- Of course the government commissioned a recent report by the ORR (regulator) about the powers and nature / scope ref fares enforcement issues and I suspect the wider points you are making would have been considered in that - or ought to have been- not sure you will get much further than that if you flag stuff with your MP but it may be worth a try.

 

[Buzby]

What scandal is this?

I’m assuming SJP?

 

[damola3]

What scandal is this?

The use of Single Justice Procedures to Prosecute Fare Evasion.

People finding out they have convictions on their record without receiving a single letter or even having mistaken identity.

‘I was charged for fare dodging when I was 7,000 miles away. Britain’s fast-track justice is flawed’

A Telegraph investigation has uncovered numerous wrongful prosecutions under the Single Justice Procedure, used to deal with minor offences

www.telegraph.co.uk

 

[CharlieSpotted]

Sorry my friend, but on the misdated letter thing, I really really really don't think you can rely on your own experience to say that Royal Mail are delivering items in good time (and therefore there's some sort of elaborate scam involving misdating letters). Royal Mail are missing targets left, right and centre and were fined by Ofcom £6.5m for missing targets in FY22/23, a further £10.5m for missing targets in FY23/24, with FY24/25 also being investigated.

I think you're on extremely shaky ground saying that the letter must have been misdated because Royal Mail are flawlessly reliable!

 

[skyhigh]

People finding out they have convictions on their record without receiving a single letter or even having mistaken identity.

I fail to see what relevance this has to your case.

 

[SCDR_WMR]

I think we need you to take a step back right now and try and provide information that has been requested in a factual manor. There's a lot of emotion coming across in your replies and it's making it difficult to assertain exactly what has happened.

There are many experts on here that will absolutely be trying to help you, but we need clarity in your responses - we are not the ones you should be taking your frustrations out on.

 

[damola3]

A few observations

- The inspector suggested you go back to your starting station and buy a ticket - we saw a case of this a week or so ago on here (can't find thread to link at the moment) - it seems this is an 'informal' option that some inspectors use as a way to 'let people off'. But I suspect when things escalated in terms of the discussion you had, that option closed off

- Sorry to ask this but are you sure you were actually issued with a Penalty Fare (not reported for investigation or what is often called a TIR report)? Sorry if I have missed an answer to that but you have not uploaded any paperwork / letters as yet I don't think.

- I think a problem you will have with an Appeal is an ability to prove the ticket machine would not work if you didn't' try or take a picture etc. These machines are supposed to 'self report if they are out of order' but having seen various threads on here over time I doubt that this is a reliable process for the self reporting - although that is a hunch

- Of course the government commissioned a recent report by the ORR (regulator) about the powers and nature / scope ref fares enforcement issues and I suspect the wider points you are making would have been considered in that - or ought to have been- not sure you will get much further than that if you flag stuff with your MP but it may be worth a try.

Hi,

I was issued with a penalty fare. I paid it via the IRCAS portal.

I fail to see what relevance this has to your case.

I'm making a point that the way that I've been treated by the system is completely degrading and unacceptable.

From the revenue officer breaking the law and threatening to apprehend me in the station if I don't pay a fine on the spot (not even take my name down) and accusing me of lying (not her job), to then I believe not even receiving any receipt for the penalty fare (trying to confirm with CCTV), to their ticketing system not working, to receiving a threat 9 days after the letter was sent, to calling my ToC who gave me a number to call (which I only found out was a Premium Line seconds after calling).

I never have issues with service workers or anything of the sort. If the Lady had asked for my details and simply told me that I could appeal later, then she would've gotten the same outcome.

I don't cheat any system and I've never quite experienced anything like this in adulthood. The legislation is insane. It's a guilty until proven innocent system, which relies on threats.

 

[AlterEgo]

I don't cheat any system and I've never quite experienced anything like this in adulthood. The legislation is insane. It's a guilty until proven innocent system, which relies on threats.

What would you like advice with? Serious question. The system is bad but it is the system we have and you are where you are.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

From the revenue officer breaking the law and threatening to apprehend me in the station

It may be worth bearing in mind that while railway staff do not often use their powers, in certain circumstances they are allowed to detain you. The Regulation of Railways Act 1889 says

5Penalty for avoiding payment of fare.​

(...)

(2)If a passenger having failed either to produce, or if requested to deliver up, a ticket showing that his fare is paid, or to pay his fare, refuses [F5or fails] on request by an officer or servant of a railway company, to give his name and address, any officer of the company F6... may detain him until he can be conveniently brought before some justice or otherwise discharged by due course of law.(...)

(source - https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/Vict/52-53/57)

In terms of the law, railways are funny things, and there are 200 years of laws for them which feel like they are written generally in favour of the railway companies rather than their customers. So we often find that it's important to distinguish between railway staff doing something that we might not approve of, and them doing something which is actually illegal.

 

[greatkingrat]

It's worth noting that if the incident was captured on CCTV, it has almost certainly long since been deleted, over two months later.

 

[WesternLancer]

Hi,

I was issued with a penalty fare. I paid it via the IRCAS portal.

Many thanks for clarifying

And you tried to Appeal it (I now note that, sorry I missed it before) but the Appeal was not allowed because it was not submitted in 21 days?

I'm making a point that the way that I've been treated by the system is completely degrading and unacceptable.

From the revenue officer breaking the law and threatening to apprehend me in the station if I don't pay a fine on the spot (not even take my name down) and accusing me of lying (not her job), to then I believe not even receiving any receipt for the penalty fare (trying to confirm with CCTV), to their ticketing system not working, to receiving a threat 9 days after the letter was sent, to calling my ToC who gave me a number to call (which I only found out was a Premium Line seconds after calling).

I never have issues with service workers or anything of the sort. If the Lady had asked for my details and simply told me that I could appeal later, then she would've gotten the same outcome.

I don't cheat any system and I've never quite experienced anything like this in adulthood. The legislation is insane. It's a guilty until proven innocent system, which relies on threats.

Understood

I guess the forum performs different roles

- advice on what if anything people can practically do given the situation people find themselves in
- help people understand why what has happened has happened
- the ability for people to express their views on how they have been treated and gain wider opinions on those views

 

[SuspectUsual]

to then I believe not even receiving any receipt for the penalty fare

I was issued with a penalty fare. I paid it via the IRCAS portal

If you weren’t given a receipt, how did you pay it? Surely you’d need a reference number for the portal and that would be on your receipt?

Or do you mean not receiving a receipt from IRCAS?