Post GBR: Management of stations

[thealexweb]

Have we heard any detail regarding the management of stations in the GBR era. Would this be an opportunity for all stations in England to owned and operated by GBR? Obviously exceptions for stations already owned by 3rd parties.

 

[DarloRich]

This and many other items are unknowns at this time.

 

[Tazi Hupefi]

Stations won't be managed by the "large" GBR parent.

Essentially GBR will, if the current plans persist, have several "regions" broadly in line with the Network Rail ones.

Our regions - Network Rail

Our five regions Eastern, North West, Scotland’s Railway, Southern and Wales & Western aim to bringing our people and the community we serve closer.

www.networkrail.co.uk

A GBR Region will then manage the stations within their geographic area. So you may see a GBR (Anglia) managing a combination of formerly c2c, Greater Anglia and some GTR stations.

There is (was?) some work stream looking at splitting that down even more into something like GBR (Anglia) Stations Ltd and GBR (Anglia) Operations Ltd - a bit like some European countries that employ staff within different subsidiaries depending on the grade/role. However, this has gone fairly quiet at the moment.

 

[Bald Rick]

Have we heard any detail regarding the management of stations in the GBR era. Would this be an opportunity for all stations in England to owned and operated by GBR? Obviously exceptions for stations already owned by 3rd parties.

Ultimately they will all be owned and operated by GBR, with a handful of exceptions.

 

[Dr Hoo]

Ultimately they will all be owned and operated by GBR, with a handful of exceptions.

I can accept that almost all stations will be ‘owned’ by GBR after it absorbs Network Rail and becomes the ‘landlord’ but surely many of them will be ‘operated’ by ScotRail, TfW, Merseytravel, TfL and in future bodies like TfGM and other local authorities.

 

[Bald Rick]

I can accept that almost all stations will be ‘owned’ by GBR after it absorbs Network Rail and becomes the ‘landlord’ but surely many of them will be ‘operated’ by ScotRail, TfW, Merseytravel, TfL and in future bodies like TfGM and other local authorities.

Well almost all of those those operated by Scotrail & TfW won’t be in England per the OP question

But yes, re TfL & Merseyrail

 

[Tazi Hupefi]

There is nothing stopping GBR from bidding to operate the various TfL or Merseyrail concessions. Indeed, GBR may well (eventually) have an economy of scale that nobody else can compete with and have very attractive bids.

I suspect if the Bee Network in Manchester comes to fruition for rail, GBR will be very keen there, but as I understand the current plans, the stations would no longer be managed by the rail industry, they'd be managed by the mayor via Transport for Greater Manchester. This may happen even if GBR operate the trains.

TfW is more complex as obviously it isn't a concession.

 

[WAB]

TfW is more complex as obviously it isn't a concession.

I imagine the management of most TfW stations in England will remain under TfW.

Operationally, TfW will still need a substantial presence at Chester and Shrewsbury, regardless of whether the station is managed by GBR or not. The former will have 6 TfW vs 3.5 GBR departures per hour, the latter 6tph TfW vs 2tph GBR. It would make far more sense for TfW to retain these stations, as well as the surrounding smaller stations.

Perhaps Upton and Heswall will transfer over to Merseyrail as they're within the LCR; Neston might have to stay with TfW if LCR doesn't want to take on a station that's neither in their area nor served by their trains.

As for Scotrail, I suspect that LNER and Avanti will retain a substantial staff presence at Edinburgh and Glasgow Central.

 

[MikeWh]

There is nothing stopping GBR from bidding to operate the various TfL or Merseyrail concessions. Indeed, GBR may well (eventually) have an economy of scale that nobody else can compete with and have very attractive bids.

I seriously doubt that GBR would be able to compete quite so spectacularly against TfL. Unless they also intend to take over running everything else that TfL operates.

 

[Djgr]

There is nothing stopping GBR from bidding to operate the various TfL or Merseyrail concessions. Indeed, GBR may well (eventually) have an economy of scale that nobody else can compete with and have very attractive bids.

My impression is that TfLCR want as much in house as possible and wouldn't be interested in engaging in any "bidding war".

 

[RT4038]

My impression is that TfLCR want as much in house as possible and wouldn't be interested in engaging in any "bidding war".

That may well be the position now, but this could change in the future.

 

[Tazi Hupefi]

I seriously doubt that GBR would be able to compete quite so spectacularly against TfL. Unless they also intend to take over running everything else that TfL operates.

I think you misunderstood my point. GBR wouldn't be competing against TfL.

TfL puts Elizabeth line, Overground etc out to tender. TfL doesn't care who operates the concession, so long as it is cost effective and meets the criteria. GBR could bid to operate like any other company, but because GBR would have an unrivalled economy of scale in the UK, could submit a bid that is possibly more cost effective than anyone else.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 2 Sep 2025 ==

My impression is that TfLCR want as much in house as possible and wouldn't be interested in engaging in any "bidding war".

That's not correct, Merseyrail will be going out to tender in the usual way in just a couple of years time, when the Serco/Abellio (Transport UK) concession ends. No plans for it to be directly operated by the mayor/region.

I suspect they'd love a bidding war - hammer the price down/ requires less subsidy.

 

[thealexweb]

I imagine the management of most TfW stations in England will remain under TfW.

The day-to-day running of English stations should not be for organization that is primarily accountable to the Welsh Parliament.
A Lockerbie situation is needed. GBR manages all stations in England at a minimum. TFW continues to provide services inside England where it is sensible to do so.

 

[WAB]

The day-to-day running of English stations should not be for organization that is primarily accountable to the Welsh Parliament.
A Lockerbie situation is needed. GBR manages all stations in England at a minimum. TFW continues to provide services inside England where it is sensible to do so.

A small wayside station with 3tph is a different kettle of fish to a hub station. What is the benefit to the customer or the efficiency of the operation for the ticket office staff and gateline to not work for the operator that most passengers will be travelling on, for there to be two duty station managers instead of one, for the 2tph operator to be paid by the 6tph operator to dispatch trains, for the cleaners to be GBR for the station but by TfW onboard trains, etc.?

TfW would remain accountable for the operation of Shrewsbury in the same way as they are already held accountable for the 'and Borders' part of their train and station operations. Has there been any significant issue at the major TfW stations that has been compounded by a slightly more nebulous line of accountability than will be the case for GBR?

 

[The Mercian]

The day-to-day running of English stations should not be for organization that is primarily accountable to the Welsh Parliament.
A Lockerbie situation is needed. GBR manages all stations in England at a minimum. TFW continues to provide services inside England where it is sensible to do so.

Agree completely. I've nothing against either TfW or the Welsh Govt who've actually done i think a very good job in providing the "and Borders" part of their service both at stations and operationally but the problem here is an "English devolution deficit" one not a Welsh issue.

 

[Horizon22]

I seriously doubt that GBR would be able to compete quite so spectacularly against TfL. Unless they also intend to take over running everything else that TfL operates.

I think the poster meant compete for concessions like the Elizabeth line / DLR / Overground etc.

 

[Lewisham2221]

The day-to-day running of English stations should not be for organization that is primarily accountable to the Welsh Parliament.
A Lockerbie situation is needed. GBR manages all stations in England at a minimum. TFW continues to provide services inside England where it is sensible to do so.

But why, apart from "because border"? What tangible benefits would it bring? Shuffling the deckchairs just for the sake of shuffling deckchairs is just a waste of money

 

[thealexweb]

But why, apart from "because border"? What tangible benefits would it bring? Shuffling the deckchairs just for the sake of shuffling deckchairs is just a waste of money

Shrewsbury and Chester rail improvements should not be in the hands of a 3rd party Parliament/Government.

GBR is meant to be a British wide organisation no? Leaving TfW to take care of inside Wales is respecting Welsh autonomy. The harsher view would GBR absorbs TfW in its entirety to achieve greater efficiency.

 

[Tazi Hupefi]

I can assure you that TfW is accountable to the DfT for the "Borders" component just as much as they are accountable to Welsh Government for the "Wales" component.

I'm not sure why there is a myth persisting that somehow England/Borders are somehow secondary.

There may well be less to discuss/monitor from the DfT perspective, but that's natural because the Borders is a far smaller element compared to Wales, and there is even less for the DfT to monitor/manage when you consider that some mayoral regions like Merseyside, West Midlands and Manchester are directly negotiating and working with TfW. The Borders are certainly not some overlooked or forgotten part of the business, especially when it's the likes of the Chester, Manchester and Birmingham services which are the most profitable.

Chester to Manchester and Crewe to Chester were/are some of the best performing routes in terms of revenue, and vital to the business as a whole. Whereas most Welsh routes are not remotely profitable. It is very much in the interest of the Welsh Government for the English routes to be successful.

 

[thealexweb]

Chester to Manchester and Crewe to Chester were/are some of the best performing routes in terms of revenue, and vital to the business as a whole. Whereas most Welsh routes are not remotely profitable. It is very much in the interest of the Welsh Government for the English routes to be successful.

That’s another matter but it could be argued that these routes in England would function well as part of Northern to improve its finances. Welsh rail being loss-making it none of the English’s business.

 

[Lewisham2221]

Shrewsbury and Chester rail improvements should not be in the hands of a 3rd party Parliament/Government.

Again... What tangible improvements would GBR make to Shrewsbury or Chester?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I can assure you that TfW is accountable to the DfT for the "Borders" component just as much as they are accountable to Welsh Government for the "Wales" component.
I'm not sure why there is a myth persisting that somehow England/Borders are somehow secondary.

Network Rail (GB-wide, Wales not devolved) organises its Wales Route (which includes the Marches line) within its Western and Wales Region.
No doubt that structure will find its way into GBR in a similar form.
There is also plenty of cross-border planning involving government bodies on both sides of the border.

 

[The Mercian]

can assure you that TfW is accountable to the DfT for the "Borders" component just as much as they are accountable to Welsh Government for the "Wales" component.

I'm not sure why there is a myth persisting that somehow England/Borders are somehow secondary.

I don’t think anyone on this thread has been arguing that this is the case at all and is a serious misrepresentation of the issue that is being discussed.

For the avoidance of doubt it appears to me that a devolved authority in this case the Welsh Govt and its devolved transport authority TfW are “in control” of significant parts of the rail operations in border areas of England in Herefordshire, Shropshire and Cheshire. This is in part due to historical arrangements and the fact Wales doesn’t have its own N/S alignment and relies on English infra to get between N and S and also needs access via the network to the large cities of Bristol, Brum, Manc and Liverpool. None of this is disputed and I’ve gone out my way to suggest TfW and the Welsh Govt have a good record in not favouring Wales over the Borders and outcomes are in the main quite good. (I have no evidence for this and maybe the Council's of those English counties feel disadvantaged?)

However, the question remains, should the Welsh Govt be controlling operations of trains that run solely within England? For instance Chester-Crewe, Chester - Liverpool, Shrewsbury to Crewe. It seems to be a failure of English devolution that these things occur and if we’re being honest the Welsh Govy and TfW have enough issues to be dealing with without worrying about stuff that England itself should be sorting out. Of course the context of cross border will always come into these things and balancing a GB network with local reqts is difficult and maybe the current solution is optimum but Im not so sure.

Of course if England had proper devolved Regional Transport Authorities (wherefor art thou Transport for Mercia) this would be moot but we don’t and we continue relying on our current inadequate arrangements.

 

[Tazi Hupefi]

I don’t think anyone on this thread has been arguing that this is the case at all and is a serious misrepresentation of the issue that is being discussed.

For the avoidance of doubt it appears to me that a devolved authority in this case the Welsh Govt and its devolved transport authority TfW are “in control” of significant parts of the rail operations in border areas of England in Herefordshire, Shropshire and Cheshire. This is in part due to historical arrangements and the fact Wales doesn’t have its own N/S alignment and relies on English infra to get between N and S and also needs access via the network to the large cities of Bristol, Brum, Manc and Liverpool. None of this is disputed and I’ve gone out my way to suggest TfW and the Welsh Govt have a good record in not favouring Wales over the Borders and outcomes are in the main quite good. (I have no evidence for this and maybe the Council's of those English counties feel disadvantaged?)

However, the question remains, should the Welsh Govt be controlling operations of trains that run solely within England? For instance Chester-Crewe, Chester - Liverpool, Shrewsbury to Crewe. It seems to be a failure of English devolution that these things occur and if we’re being honest the Welsh Govy and TfW have enough issues to be dealing with without worrying about stuff that England itself should be sorting out. Of course the context of cross border will always come into these things and balancing a GB network with local reqts is difficult and maybe the current solution is optimum but Im not so sure.

Of course if England had proper devolved Regional Transport Authorities (wherefor art thou Transport for Mercia) this would be moot but we don’t and we continue relying on our current inadequate arrangements.

But you aren't listening or understanding.

However, the question remains, should the Welsh Govt be controlling operations of trains that run solely within England?

That statement is simply not the case. They do not do any such thing. They merely operate the service according to the specification that the English DfT (or other English bodies like Merseytravel) asks them to and provided funding for. TfW aren't unilaterally deciding how those services are ran, the fares available for them etc. England is doing that.

DfT and other English organisations already control the operations of the Borders side of TfW. TfW just runs the train.

It would be insanity to create artificial borders and start splitting services up simply for administrative purposes.

Crewe to Chester is shortly to become Crewe to Wrexham and much later, Gobowen and Shrewsbury once the signalling is sorted.

Bidston to Wrexham will become Liverpool to Wrexham

Liverpool to Chester will become Liverpool to Cardiff

Chester to Manchester already actually is North Wales to Manchester.

Crewe to Shrewsbury is mainly Manchester to Cardiff with a very irregular local service that occasionally has gone into Central Wales/Heart of Wales.

These aren't services which are "only" English.