Great Western Mainline Elizabeth Line upgrades

[D365]

Which some of the links would be from driving the HEX 387s. Plus the ETCS is to replace the GWML ATP system which the IETs have.

Could somebody kindly remind me of the current projected timescales are for deployment of ERTMS on Great Western.

I was just adding that Heathrow Express had suggested they would extended to Newbury and Swindon, I know it is quite unlikely as Heathrow Expresses contract expires in 2028.

Track access rights for Heathrow Express is the least of your problems.

 

[Bald Rick]

Plus the ETCS is to replace the GWML ATP system which the IETs have.

Is it? Can you show a recent (last 18 months) confirmed plan for that?

 

[AlastairFraser]

I think you have calcuated the rail capacity one way, but the airport passenger numbers are both ways

True

The number of air passengers travelling to (or from) the airport is around 30m a year, or about 80,000 a day. Even if they were all using rail, they would all fit on the Elizabeth line service alone, wihout need for HEx or the Piccadilly line.

Indeed, so we need better rail transport connections from poorly served areas (e.g areas to the south and west of Heathrow), not necessarily more capacity.

If the Southern Link happens (the version towards Woking) it will be HEX extensions.

Interesting. Why HeX rather than EL?

GWR intercity servcies would never be routed that way.

Not even an Oxford semi-fast (mainly for the connection potential at Reading?)

 

[Bald Rick]

Interesting. Why HeX rather than EL?

Basingstoke would be a long way on a 345.

Not even an Oxford semi-fast (mainly for the connection potential at Reading?)

Nope, it would extend journey times from London to Slough / Maidenhead by an unacceptable level.

 

[BerkshireRails]

Is it? Can you show a recent (last 18 months) confirmed plan for that?

The original intention was for the infrastructure from Paddington to the Heathrow Terminals to be fitted and operating with ETCS to support service operation of the HEx class 387s by June 2019. Between Paddington and Stockley Bridge Junction the ETCS would have been in an overlay configuration. This would have facilitated withdrawal of the GW-ATP fitted class 332s and 360s units and decommissioning the GW-ATP infrastructure between Stockley Bridge Junction and the Heathrow Terminals. The GW-ATP fitted mainline infrastructure between Paddington and Stockley Bridge Junction is required to be retained to support GW-ATP service operation of the GWR class 43 and class 80x (IET) units.

As the class 332s are already fitted with GW-ATP and will be replaced by the ETCS fitted HEx class 387s, this paper justifies why it is not considered to be feasible to fit GW-ATP to the HEx class 387s in order to maintain the safety benefits provided by the GW-ATP should the lines between Paddington and Stockley Bridge Junction not be fitted with ETCS in time for their introduction into service.

The above quotes are from Class 387 ETCS paper, which clearly shows that ETCS is replacing GW-ATP on GWML. Once ETCS extends to Bristol then you can compelety replace GW-ATP, however they have made a start on Heathrow Branch. I know it isn't from the past 18 months.

Basingstoke would be a long way on a 345.

That reminds me of my idea I had of Elizabeth Line taking over the Basingstoke Shuttle from GWR, with electrification and platform extension. I then decided that running 8 car 387s would be better and building a bay at Reading Green Park for Elizabeth Line to improve access to Green Park and the football stadium in Reading.

Nope, it would extend journey times from London to Slough / Maidenhead by an unacceptable level.

Skipping, West Drayton, Hayes & Harlington, Ealing Broadway and running on Mains between Dolphin Junction and London Paddington shaved 8 minutes off journey time. It was only possible because the COVID had reduced demand for long distance services, when the switched it to the Mains in May 2023. Was booked to take 46 minutes now only takes 38 minutes.

 

[Bald Rick]

The above quotes are from Class 387 ETCS paper, which clearly shows that ETCS is replacing GW-ATP on GWML. Once ETCS extends to Bristol then you can compelety replace GW-ATP, however they have made a start on Heathrow Branch. I know it isn't from the past 18 months.

The first three words of what you quote are all you need to know.

 

[D365]

The above quotes are from Class 387 ETCS paper, which clearly shows that ETCS is replacing GW-ATP on GWML. Once ETCS extends to Bristol then you can compelety replace GW-ATP, however they have made a start on Heathrow Branch. I know it isn't from the past 18 months.

Nowhere in your cited paper does it consider the rollout of ETCS beyond Stockley Bridge Junction.

 

[AlastairFraser]

Basingstoke would be a long way on a 345.

True. Honestly I don't see any Heathrow Southern Railway link getting further than Woking, because I think Heathrow's funding will only stretch so far.

Nope, it would extend journey times from London to Slough / Maidenhead by an unacceptable level.

Fair enough. I guess we'll have to wait for any future high speed railway in the long term for Heathrow to get a robust longer-distance link to the cities of the M4 corridor.

 

[BerkshireRails]

The first three words of what you quote are all you need to know.

They subsequently have fitted ETCS L2 to the Great Western Mainline.

Nowhere in your cited paper does it consider the rollout of ETCS beyond Stockley Bridge Junction.

Extension to Bristol is a logical option as some links already sign ETCS for Heathrow Express so you might as well roll it out to replace GW-ATP.

 

[Bald Rick]

True. Honestly I don't see any Heathrow Southern Railway link getting further than Woking, because I think Heathrow's funding will only stretch so far.

The expensive bit, by a long,long way, is the first 5 miles from Heathrow. If funding can get thst far, then the rest is easy.

However, the chances of Heathrow funding any of it is approximately zero.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 31 Aug 2025 ==

They subsequently have fitted ETCS L2 to the Great Western Mainline.

Yes, on the relief lines only, and only from Acton to Heathrow. There are no confirmed plans to go further.

 

[BerkshireRails]

The expensive bit, by a long,long way, is the first 5 miles from Heathrow. If funding can get thst far, then the rest is easy.

However, the chances of Heathrow funding any of it is approximately zero.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 31 Aug 2025 ==



Yes, on the relief lines only, and only from Acton to Heathrow. There are no confirmed plans to go further.

The Mains have ETCS L2 as well according to the sectional appendix.

 

[Bald Rick]

The Mains have ETCS L2 as well according to the sectional appendix.

Hmm. I’ll have to check that.

Nevertheless, no comfirmed plans for extensions.

 

[AlastairFraser]

The expensive bit, by a long,long way, is the first 5 miles from Heathrow. If funding can get thst far, then the rest is easy.

True. At least you can surface after Stanwell Moor and use part of the old Staines and West Drayton Railway line before you reach the Windsor line.

However, the chances of Heathrow funding any of it is approximately zero.

Shouldn't it be part of their environmental and transport planning for the 3rd runway expansion (unlikely as it is to actually happen)?

 

[Bald Rick]

True. At least you can surface after Stanwell Moor and use part of the old Staines and West Drayton Railway line before you reach the Windsor line.

Staines Moor is an SSSI. Notwithstanding the M25 next door, the chances of building a tunnel portal and railway there are close to zero.

Shouldn't it be part of their environmental and transport planning for the 3rd runway expansion (unlikely as it is to actually happen)?

Well that’s a matter of opinion. Heathrow’s opinion is No.
We will see what the planning authority and inspectorate think in due course.

 

[AlastairFraser]

Staines Moor is an SSSI. Notwithstanding the M25 next door, the chances of building a tunnel portal and railway there are close to zero.

It is, but I understand that some of the old railway alignment through it is extant.

Well that’s a matter of opinion. Heathrow’s opinion is No.
We will see what the planning authority and inspectorate think in due course.

Hopefully they force their hand - if there is any significant expansion, some higher capacity public transport to the west and south will be needed. The M25 and M4 are struggling as it is.

 

[BerkshireRails]

It is, but I understand that some of the old railway alignment through it is extant.

The parts left are a freight line and other parts were built on for the M25.

 

[AlastairFraser]

The parts left are a freight line and other parts were built on for the M25.

Even the section on the eastern side of the Wraysbury River?

 

[Bald Rick]

It is, but I understand that some of the old railway alignment through it is extant.

That makes no difference in the SSSI designation.

 

[AlastairFraser]

That makes no difference in the SSSI designation.

Of course it doesn't, but it doesn't make it completely impossible to build on.