CAF class 197 Civity for TfW: News and updates on introduction.

[tfw756rider]

I've seen something on Facebook that suggests it's a gearbox failure, I can't find the post to link to it now though.

Oh that's not good. I was wondering only the other day, how reliable actually are these ZF EcoLife (and preceding Ecomat) bus-style gearboxes in these much heavier railway vehicles? Sure, they're the EcoLife Rail variant, but still...

I was under the impression that they actually were reliable, as when all 197s are built and in use, there will be 538 of them in use across classes 172, 195, 196 and 197 in Britain, plus another 81 in the NI C4Ks, so 619 in the UK, and they're not exactly known for unreliability are they?

They started being used in July 2010 (in the 172/0s), which is now just over 15 years ago in August 2025, whereas the SCG gearboxes in the Pacers were already replaced with Voith T211 hydraulic transmissions (15x, 16x, 170/171, 175) when they were just 1 to 3 years old.

Could the manufacture quality of the newer-built ZF gearboxes fitted to the 19x classes be inferior to that of the 172 ones for some reason?

 

[Anonymous10]

Does anyone know how come 197045 has been at Carmarthen for over a week now?

I remember one broke down in Carmarthen causing chaos last week.

 

[Krokodil]

If they had got a move on with getting Machynlleth over to 197’s

Who is "they"? Are the delays in the Cambrian entry to service down to TfW, CAF, or Network Rail?

It's not just about which depots "know how" to maintain which units, it's about having the capacity and resource - physical facilities, time and manpower - to maintain those extra trains.

Indeed. The use of Barry as a stabling point was never part of the plan. It was an afterthought once it was realised that there wasn't enough room at Canton. Likewise outstabling is having to happen at Llandudno Junction and Wrexham because Chester has no room - whoever wrote the spec worked on the assumption that every siding in Middle Yard and every last bay platform would be available for stabling. No consideration of the fact that Northern stable too, plus tampers and test trains in Middle Yard.

On the station CIS. Certainly in some locations, last time I saw (but sadly didn't think to photograph) it was Manchester Piccadilly I think.

I'm currently working an all-standard one and the displays at Picc are showing 1st anyway. At least they're not showing it in the middle carriage, like they usually do...

 

[tfw756rider]

I'm currently working an all-standard one and the displays at Picc are showing 1st anyway. At least they're not showing it in the middle carriage, like they usually do...

Has this been reported to the relevant part of the company, and/or to Network Rail?

 

[Krokodil]

Well, Control are now aware that the unit they allocated is not the one actually on the service.

 

[chrisjo]

As far as I know yes, It’s believed to be at where the track machines parks

197045 is still parked in Carmarthen Down Sidings, seen mid-afternoon today. It looks like it arrived at CMN on 2E34 from PBD on the 19th, and failed to depart CMN on 2B40 to CDF on the 20th.

I also noticed that the re-furbished siding behind platform 2 is now equipped with new valeting equipment stations presumably aligned to match the spacing of 197 doors, and it looks like it's operational.

 

[Pete_uk]

Just looked up the gearbox. I must say it's looks rather complex!

 

[tfw756rider]

Well, Control are now aware that the unit they allocated is not the one actually on the service.

Oh

197045 is still parked in Carmarthen Down Sidings, seen mid-afternoon today.

Ah, so that's what they're called, thanks.

I also noticed that the re-furbished siding behind platform 2 is now equipped with new valeting equipment stations presumably aligned to match the spacing of 197 doors, and it looks like it's operational.

Yes, and CET emptying can now finally be done at Carmarthen.

Just looked up the gearbox. I must say it's looks rather complex!

Yes they are, but I think it was realised by the time that we reverted back to mechanical transmissions (from hydraulic) that they were no longer unreliable junk, and so were actually worth bothering with for their efficiency.

I haven't looked them up myself, but I wonder if some change was made that has made the 19x EcoLife boxes less reliable than the 172 Ecomat ones?

 

[Peter Sarf]

Oh

Ah, so that's what they're called, thanks.

Yes, and CET emptying can now finally be done at Carmarthen.

Yes they are, but I think it was realised by the time that we reverted back to mechanical transmissions (from hydraulic) that they were no longer unreliable junk, and so were actually worth bothering with for their efficiency.

I haven't looked them up myself, but I wonder if some change was made that has made the 19x EcoLife boxes less reliable than the 172 Ecomat ones?

Just wondering. How many gearbox failures on class 197s have there actually been ?.

 

[tfw756rider]

Just wondering. How many gearbox failures on class 197s have there actually been ?.

I don't know, but I've heard of more on 195s/196s/197s than 172s.

 

[Peter Sarf]

I don't know, but I've heard of more on 195s/196s/197s than 172s.

Class 172 480hp sent through a ZF Ecomat (6-speed mechanical)
Class 197 503hp sent through a ZF EcoLife hydromechanical (mechanical gearbox with a torque converter)
So I guess not really comparable.
A bit more power but seems to be a fairly different gearbox anyway.

I wonder how reliable the 172s were when they were first used and settling in ?.
(as in at the same stage in their life as 197s are now).

What is true (from reports earlier in this thread) is that Chester depot cannot cope. It is too small for the fleet size so demic units have to be got out of the way (to Holyhead). Easier to draft in some meant for Cambrian currently.

Sources WikiPedia

British Rail Class 172 - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

British Rail Class 197 - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[tfw756rider]

Class 172 480hp sent through a ZF Ecomat (6-speed mechanical)
Class 197 503hp sent through a ZF EcoLife hydromechanical (mechanical gearbox with a torque converter)
So I guess not really comparable.
A bit more power but seems to be a fairly different gearbox anyway.

Oh, so the boxes could be more different than I thought then (despite seeming to function in the same way in terms of rapidly changing up and down their many gears, if not technically functioning in the same way), and like you say, different amounts of power going into them, the potential consequences of which hadn't occurred to me (I wonder how many gearbox failures 195s/196s have had, seeing as even more power - 520hp - goes into them, if the stated power figures are correct).

It would be unfortunate if, more power going in aside, any design changes have actually made the 195/196/197 gearboxes less reliable than the 172 ones.

 

[Rhydgaled]

They started being used in July 2010 (in the 172/0s), which is now just over 15 years ago in August 2025, whereas the SCG gearboxes in the Pacers were already replaced with Voith T211 hydraulic transmissions (15x, 16x, 170/171, 175) when they were just 1 to 3 years old.

Does that mean the Sprinters, 170s and 175s are diesel-hydraulics like some early BR diesels (Hymeks and Westerns) but 172s and 19x are diesel-mechanical?

It would be unfortunate if, more power going in aside, any design changes have actually made the 195/196/197 gearboxes less reliable than the 172 ones.

Weren't the 172s a Bombardier Derby product rather than a CAF design? If so, it's not really a design change from those to 19x - rather a separate (alternative/competing) design isn’t it, so not really comparable (as Peter Sarf suggested)?

 

[hexagon789]

Does that mean the Sprinters, 170s and 175s are diesel-hydraulics like some early BR diesels (Hymeks and Westerns)

Yes.

172s and 19x are diesel-mechanical?

I believe 172s are straight mechanical, but 197s are hydro-mechanical.

 

[Lewisham2221]

Weren't the 172s a Bombardier Derby product rather than a CAF design? If so, it's not really a design change from those to 19x - rather a separate (alternative/competing) design isn’t it, so not really comparable (as Peter Sarf suggested)?

Yes, the units are separate designs, but the gearboxes are all manufactured by the same company.

 

[Peter Sarf]

Yes, the units are separate designs, but the gearboxes are all manufactured by the same company.

But seem to be a rather different design of gearbox.

 

[tfw756rider]

Weren't the 172s a Bombardier Derby product rather than a CAF design? If so, it's not really a design change from those to 19x - rather a separate (alternative/competing) design isn’t it, so not really comparable (as Peter Sarf suggested)?

Yes, but the use of ZF 6-speed gearboxes on UK Diesel Multiple Units that Bombardier had started on their last Turbostar class was carried over to the diesel CAF units (initially the NI C4Ks, then later the Civities back in Britain).

I meant gearbox design changes (from the 172s' Ecomat to the 195/196/197s' EcoLife) not overall unit design changes between the two manufacturers (Bombardier and CAF) and product families (Turbostar and Civity).

 

[Peter Sarf]

In other news 197036 has left Holyhead for Chester 5Z02.
Perhaps another Cambrian/ETCS 197/0 edging towards entry into service ?.

Realtime Trains | 5Z02 1606 Holyhead Car. M.D. to Chester | 28/08/2025

Real-time train running information for 5Z02 1606 departure from Holyhead Car. M.D. to Chester on 28/08/2025. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

As for the gearbox intrigue. My take is the gearbox is not comparable to that on the 172s.
This is a newer design that might have an inherent defect,
It could be a cheaper version for CAF (but my hunch is it is more involved being a mechanical+hydraulic blend) OR
It could be the way CAF has implemented it (maybe more shocks transmitted through the drive shaft from harder suspension, not enough ventilation etc etc).
Too many variables.

 

[Western 52]

Realtime Trains | 8Z45 2323 Carmarthen to Landore T.M.D. | 28/08/2025

Real-time train running information for 8Z45 2323 departure from Carmarthen to Landore T.M.D. on 28/08/2025. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

I wonder if this is 197045 being moved from Carmarthen at low speed as a class 8?

 

[animationmilo]

Realtime Trains | 8Z45 2323 Carmarthen to Landore T.M.D. | 28/08/2025

Real-time train running information for 8Z45 2323 departure from Carmarthen to Landore T.M.D. on 28/08/2025. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

I wonder if this is 197045 being moved from Carmarthen at low speed as a class 8?

Maybe they will road it from Landore as they have access there.

 

[chrisjo]

Maybe they will road it from Landore as they have access there.

Access is good at Carmarthen sidings as well.

 

[tfw756rider]

In other news 197036 has left Holyhead for Chester 5Z02.
Perhaps another Cambrian/ETCS 197/0 edging towards entry into service ?.

Thanks for letting us know

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 28 Aug 2025 ==

This is a newer design that might have an inherent defect,
It could be a cheaper version for CAF (but my hunch is it is more involved being a mechanical+hydraulic blend)

Unfortunately, you might be right...

It could be the way CAF has implemented it (maybe more shocks transmitted through the drive shaft from harder suspension, not enough ventilation etc etc).

Maybe, although I understand that the 172s already moved to more modern lightweight bogies (although arguably the 195/196/197s' are even "poorer" riding).

Too many variables.

Yeah

 

[Gordonman]

Maybe they will road it from Landore as they have access there.

Yes,197045.I suppose the headcode gives it away.Unsure if it was towed by another unit though

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 29 Aug 2025 ==

One for Jacob if you are at work.

What 197's are currently at LNWR Crewe please?

Thanks

 

[158822]

1W26 20:10 Cardiff Central to Manchester Piccadilly is showing as 150241 on RTT.

 

[trainspotter4]

Seems so, from looking at RTT I'm not seeing a single MK4 anywhere? Have they been pulled from service for the day so the 197s are likely stretched very thin or am I missing something?

 

[BillStampy]

Seems so, from looking at RTT I'm not seeing a single MK4 anywhere? Have they been pulled from service for the day so the 197s are likely stretched very thin or am I missing something?

There's 2 sets currently, HD06 had failed earlier on.

 

[Krokodil]

Seems so, from looking at RTT I'm not seeing a single MK4 anywhere? Have they been pulled from service for the day so the 197s are likely stretched very thin or am I missing something?

I saw a set on 3H00 earlier. I presume that this is a driver training run, it's been going on all week.

 

[sd0733]

I saw a set on 3H00 earlier. I presume that this is a driver training run, it's been going on all week.

Test runs for the set involved in the Leominster collision.

 

[Krokodil]

Cheers, hopefully we'll see that one in service soon

 

[sd0733]

Cheers, hopefully we'll see that one in service soon

Sunday all being well!