December 2025 East Coast Timetable

[Bletchleyite]

Perhaps not a later last train but more departures between 19:00 and 20:30 will help spread the load.
(One on Friday and two extra departures Monday to Thursday).

Ironic that Friday is maybe the day they are most needed!

Edit: ah, that's because there's already a Friday 1930.

 

[D1537]

If they made them booked connections, how many other services across the country would have to be retimed?

Well, "collateral damage" was mentioned above, and for those travelling from places like Northallerton and Durham* to Scotland, it's 30 minutes (and an extra change of train) worth of collateral. Obviously something had to break, but they do seem to have got the sharp end of the stick. Northallerton has also lost its morning commuter LNER to Newcastle.

*Durham still does have XC, but I'm talking about trains you'd actually want to use here.

 

[takno]

Last time I used the Friday extended 7.30pm departure from Kings Cross, it was very quiet on the stretch from Newcastle to Edinburgh. Not sure about Lumo but that's a slightly different clientele. I'm not convinced there's healthy year-round demand to travel on LNER beyond 7pm.

Whenever I've been on it the 8.30pm Lumo has varied between half full and almost full until Newcastle, with maybe a bit more than half the customers getting off there. I think that's pretty good for a train that's scheduled to dump you in Edinburgh well after midnight.

I suspect a lot of people aren't really aware you can get a train after about 7, and Lumo's marketing tends to come across as "it's this late to make it cheap" rather than "late trains for your convenience". There's a good chance you can build alright loadings on 7 and 7.30 LNERs, particularly if they are just a normal part of the every-day timetable and the earlier trains all start getting marked as sold out.

 

[Judith hambly]

the tt is a disaster , no all station stopping service south of york means newark to retford cant be done etc etc and the lack of trains calling at smaller stations north of york and into scotland is a complete lash up. berwick is 2 hourly, dunbar and morpeth lner virtually have given up on . its a farce, the tt is only intrested in kx lds york newc adn edin . anywhere else forget it maybe more trains, but look at how many leeds and newcastle services are booked 5 cars. may be more trains but not much more capacity overall

 

[D1537]

the tt is a disaster , no all station stopping service south of york means newark to retford cant be done etc etc and the lack of trains calling at smaller stations north of york and into scotland is a complete lash up. berwick is 2 hourly, dunbar and morpeth lner virtually have given up on . its a farce, the tt is only intrested in kx lds york newc adn edin . anywhere else forget it maybe more trains, but look at how many leeds and newcastle services are booked 5 cars. may be more trains but not much more capacity overall

Yes, I'm not entirely sure how anyone is supposed to do Newark/Retford during the daytime (there's one northbound service at 0712 and that's your lot, whilst there's an excellent 3 southbound services before 0811 ... and then nothing until 2200), which is quite bizarre. I suppose you could go via Lincoln, but the connections mean the journey is 1hr50 going north and 1hr30 going south, so it'd be quicker to get the bus (indeed, it'd probably be quicker on a bicycle). Oh, and it's not a permitted route, so it's more expensive.

Grantham/Newark isn't exactly brilliant either - northbound it's 2-hourly for most of the day but then has a weird gap from 1554 to 1917 because one of the Lincolns doesn't stop at Grantham (is that an error?), whilst coming south there is a 3-hour gap followed by a 3hr30 gap (there's only one train between the 1545 and the 2215).

 

[duffield]

Yes, I'm not entirely sure how anyone is supposed to do Newark/Retford during the daytime (there's one northbound service at 0712 and that's your lot, whilst there's an excellent 3 southbound services before 0811 ... and then nothing until 2200), which is quite bizarre. I suppose you could go via Lincoln, but the connections mean the journey is 1hr50 going north and 1hr30 going south, so it'd be quicker to get the bus (indeed, it'd probably be quicker on a bicycle). Oh, and it's not a permitted route, so it's more expensive.
...

If you were determined to do it, wouldn't via Doncaster be the quickest way? The Doncaster to Retford service is a bit variable but when it works out it takes about 45 minutes Newark to Retford (haven't looked at the opposite direction). It's doubling back, presumably not permitted, but as you say via Lincoln is not permitted either. At least 45 minutes is faster than getting the bus, which takes about an hour.

 

[3RDGEN]

One thing I've noticed, which I might have missed - the connections at Newcastle from the Newcastle "stoppers" to the Edinburgh service behind (and vice versa) are 5 minutes northbound and 6 minutes southbound. Are fares even going to be offered for those given that Newcastle's connection time is 8 minutes? Or are people going to be offered itineraries which involve standing around at Newcastle for 35 minutes?

There's a valid connection time at York, 9/10 North and 15 South so the journey planners would return that for Grantham/Stevenage passengers. Durham and Darlington have direct services to Edinburgh so it's Northallerton that's affected however it does gain the clockface hourly London to Newcastle service.

 

[Farigiraf]

Northallerton to Edinburgh journeys, while no longer direct, will now be possible every hour with a change at Darlington (rather than 2-hourly direct). While the transfer at Newcastle is below the minimum interchange time, the transfer at Darlington is typically 5-6 minutes (just over the minimum of 5 minutes) and often the Newcastle LNER and the Edinburgh XC service arrive on the same platform 5 minutes apart making for an easy interchange.
In the other direction however, due to the LNER Edinburgh fast service now skipping Darlington, it's generally a 30 minute connection at Newcastle from a southbound LNER/XC onto the Northallerton service.
Overall, if you don't mind changing trains or taking XC, frequencies have improved (in one direction). However that's not a massive group of people compared to those who may stop taking the train due to the removed calls on LNER Edinburghs and TPE Newcastles.

 

[D1537]

If you were determined to do it, wouldn't via Doncaster be the quickest way? The Doncaster to Retford service is a bit variable but when it works out it takes about 45 minutes Newark to Retford (haven't looked at the opposite direction). It's doubling back, presumably not permitted, but as you say via Lincoln is not permitted either. At least 45 minutes is faster than getting the bus, which takes about an hour.

Yeah, not permitted, so it'd cost you around £20 each way instead of £7.

 

[Bletchleyite]

If you were determined to do it, wouldn't via Doncaster be the quickest way? The Doncaster to Retford service is a bit variable but when it works out it takes about 45 minutes Newark to Retford (haven't looked at the opposite direction). It's doubling back, presumably not permitted, but as you say via Lincoln is not permitted either. At least 45 minutes is faster than getting the bus, which takes about an hour.

This is clearly going to need some fares/easement tweaks so it's possible to make the journey at all. I'd imagine they will be forthcoming once it's brought to their attention.

 

[D1537]

Northallerton to Edinburgh journeys, while no longer direct, will now be possible every hour with a change at Darlington (rather than 2-hourly direct). While the transfer at Newcastle is below the minimum interchange time, the transfer at Darlington is typically 5-6 minutes (just over the minimum of 5 minutes) and often the Newcastle LNER and the Edinburgh XC service arrive on the same platform 5 minutes apart making for an easy interchange.

My bigger issue (apart from the fact that it's XC) is that 5 minutes means that should the LNER be only slightly late, the XC (which skips Northallerton) would almost certainly be sent ahead of it at York. I don't think I'd be booking that even if it were offered as an itinerary. I think I'd be getting the stopper to Newcastle and booking on the next LNER instead, which (a) removes XC from the equation and (b) will almost certainly be cheaper on a split ticket, for the sake of 25 minutes at Newcastle.

 

[mangyiscute]

My bigger issue (apart from the fact that it's XC) is that 5 minutes means that should the LNER be only slightly late, the XC (which skips Northallerton) would almost certainly be sent ahead of it at York. I don't think I'd be booking that even if it were offered as an itinerary. I think I'd be getting the stopper to Newcastle and booking on the next LNER instead, which (a) removes XC from the equation and (b) will almost certainly be cheaper on a split ticket, for the sake of 25 minutes at Newcastle.

Although if you book that connecting journey you either get to your destination quicker or if the train is delayed do that route anyway and get delay repay. Also from my experience I would imagine the cross country is far more likely to be late than the ex London train.

 

[D1537]

Although if you book that connecting journey you either get to your destination quicker or if the train is delayed do that route anyway and get delay repay. Also from my experience I would imagine the cross country is far more likely to be late than the ex London train.

You'd think so, but the timings for many of the XC services are quite slack and they also have extended dwells at a number of stations. If you look at RTT you'll regularly see SW-NE trains that were 5-10 minutes or so late at some point in their journey and they're back on time by York, whereas LNER trains that drop a bit of time tend to stay late.

 

[Bikeman78]

Crewing arrangements, where to put set at Newcastle if issues. The fact it's another hour north of York for the Newark thunderbird to travel if failure etc, etc etc

Which is all fine but then why plan it in the first place? I realise that the 5.5 hour round trip to Leeds, coupled with the Harrogate trains every two hours, makes it awkward. Eventually the 91s would naturally cycle onto a Harrogate train which they cannot do.

 

[800001]

Which is all fine but then why plan it in the first place? I realise that the 5.5 hour round trip to Leeds, coupled with the Harrogate trains every two hours, makes it awkward. Eventually the 91s would naturally cycle onto a Harrogate train which they cannot do.

Nothing is actually planned though is it?
there are conversations, there is stuff in the back ground going on, no 91 diagram to Newcastle is confirmed.

LNER have not confirmed it, it is everyone 'railway rumour' and people on a forum thinking one is going there, when as yet it isn't.

 

[43074]

Which is all fine but then why plan it in the first place? I realise that the 5.5 hour round trip to Leeds, coupled with the Harrogate trains every two hours, makes it awkward. Eventually the 91s would naturally cycle onto a Harrogate train which they cannot do.

Harrogate and Bradford extensions skew the whole timetable and stock diagrams in a sense, they explain why LNER have 80 minute turnarounds at Leeds in the new timetable.

Operationally it's less than ideal compared to now where turnarounds at Leeds are 30 minutes and the longer turnarounds take place at Bradford and Harrogate where at least they are (relatively) out of the way!

 

[weeklycommuter]

Yes, I'm not entirely sure how anyone is supposed to do Newark/Retford during the daytime (there's one northbound service at 0712 and that's your lot, whilst there's an excellent 3 southbound services before 0811 ... and then nothing until 2200), which is quite bizarre. I suppose you could go via Lincoln, but the connections mean the journey is 1hr50 going north and 1hr30 going south, so it'd be quicker to get the bus (indeed, it'd probably be quicker on a bicycle). Oh, and it's not a permitted route, so it's more expensive.

Grantham/Newark isn't exactly brilliant either - northbound it's 2-hourly for most of the day but then has a weird gap from 1554 to 1917 because one of the Lincolns doesn't stop at Grantham (is that an error?), whilst coming south there is a 3-hour gap followed by a 3hr30 gap (there's only one train between the 1545 and the 2215).

It is true that while the current Kings Cross to York train service every two hours calls at Peterborough, Grantham, Newark, Retford and Doncaster to provide a useful train service connecting these five stations, in the December 2025 timetable this train service will only call at Peterborough, Retford and Doncaster. People who live in Retford and visit Newark or Grantham may already do so by car but anyone who takes the train now will surely just go by car when the December 2025 timetable starts.

 

[hexagon789]

People who live in Retford and visit Newark or Grantham may already do so by car but anyone who takes the train now will surely just go by car when the December 2025 timetable starts.

To be fair, neither Newark nor Grantham is in the top ten destinations by ticket sales from Retford.

London King's Cross is unsurprisingly 1st, York is 5th and Doncaster is 6th.

 

[D1537]

To be fair, neither Newark nor Grantham is in the top ten destinations by ticket sales from Retford.

London King's Cross is unsurprisingly 1st, York is 5th and Doncaster is 6th.

Grantham to Newark, however, is 5th (and Newark to Grantham is 6th).

People who live in Retford and visit Newark or Grantham may already do so by car but anyone who takes the train now will surely just go by car when the December 2025 timetable starts.

I would suggest that a significant number of people who use the train between Newark/Grantham/Retford don't have access to a car, or they would indeed probably use it.

 

[Bald Rick]

To be fair, neither Newark nor Grantham is in the top ten destinations by ticket sales from Retford.

What is the actual annual number between the two?

 

[Kite159]

And that is counting the people who actually buy tickets for those flows, knowing the chances of getting checked are low due to the long trains.

 

[hexagon789]

What is the actual annual number between the two?

Which two, sorry?

Retford and Newark or Retford and Grantham?

 

[Bald Rick]

Which two, sorry?

Retford and Newark or Retford and Grantham?

Retford & Newark

 

[D1537]

Which two, sorry?

Retford and Newark or Retford and Grantham?

Retford and Newark. Retford and Grantham have a decent service because of Hull Trains.

 

[hexagon789]

Retford & Newark

Retford and Newark. Retford and Grantham have a decent service because of Hull Trains.

2,780

 

[Bald Rick]

2,780

a year?

So, fewer than 4 each way per day. Or put another way, 1 passenger for every other train that calls at both.

You can see why that link is going…

 

[Peter0124]

a year?

So, fewer than 4 each way per day. Or put another way, 1 passenger for every other train that calls at both.

You can see why that link is going…

Surely they should just allow a double-back via the nearest common station (Doncaster?) as whilst the numbers are negligible there should still be a valid route between two stations on the same line.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Surely they should just allow a double-back via the nearest common station (Doncaster?) as whilst the numbers are negligible there should still be a valid route between two stations on the same line.

If it's 4 per day then they probably haven't noticed. While allowing a double back on the current fares might cause an anomaly, creating some routed fares is probably the fix.

 

[hexagon789]

a year?

So, fewer than 4 each way per day. Or put another way, 1 passenger for every other train that calls at both.

You can see why that link is going…

Yes, that was the annual figure.

London was over 111k, Grantham was 16th highest flow and inspite of the Hull Trains service linking them only 1,295.

 

[weeklycommuter]

According to the link below these are the total numbers of journeys greater than one thousand from Retford to each of the following stations for the year 2023/24.

London Kings Cross 111,322
Lincoln 24,140
Sheffield 22,559
Worksop 21,691
York 12,919
Doncaster 12,213
Leeds 8,631
Gainsborough Lea Road 5,972
Meadowhall 5,941
Nottingham 3,033
Newark Northgate 2,780
Peterborough 2,524
Manchester Piccadilly 2,053
Newcastle 1,804
Edinburgh 1,647
Grantham 1,295
Hull 1,259
Stevenage 1,066

These numbers are journeys from Retford so should be doubled for the total number of journeys both ways, for instance 222,644 Retford to and from London Kings Cross. Retford to and from Newark Northgate would be 5,560. Total 2023/24 entries and exits at Retford 546,108 plus 82,623 interchanges. The hourly Northern Leeds-Lincoln service is clearly important for Retford.

https://www.railwaydata.co.uk/odm/gbr/?dest=all&string_out=Retford+%5B6511%5D