Why don’t heritage railways make an effort to “sell” diesel traction?

[Gwr12345]

Did you mean the class 42-43 Warships? The Deltics were named after racehorses and Army regiments.

Deltic engines were used in Royal Navy ships (it was originally a naval design I think)

 

[Sun Chariot]

Deltic engines were used in Royal Navy ships (it was originally a naval design I think)

Of course, Napier's opposed-piston marine engine. I think the locomotives had a derived design, rather than it being a lift 'n' shift design straight from the fast marine vessel. Crankshaft speed on the EE type 5, I hazard a guess, was far higher than that in the marine craft.

 

[Tetragon213]

Did you mean the class 42-43 Warships? The Deltics were named after racehorses and Army regiments.

You could definitely throw in the 42 and 43 warships yes. I was thinking along the lines of the Deltic engine's naval heritage before it became more associated with the railway.

 

[43096]

I visited the G&W recently and the opening line from Bert on my arrival was 'I am really sorry but it is a diesel'. My response, 'please don't be, that is precisely why I am here' (they had advertised diesel but only because the kettles risked a large Cotswolds wildfire')

My response would be rather more to the point, “Good, I’m not here for the kettles.”

 

[45Fox]

Genuine questions:
How many heritage railways promote their "rail product" on Instagram, X, TikTok Facebook, YouTube?
How many do that actively? Several posts per week, on every week. To increase their "brand awareness" on the platforms' algorithms?
How many elicit visitors' feedback during and after a railway event? How many socialise that insight through social media platforms / reels?

I ask these because my wife, son and I are assisting a local dog rescue centre to build its digital brand, raise its visibility and generate much needed revenue.

I can't speak for all preserved lines but I can say that the Great Central Railway at Loughborough has a very active online presence.

 

[Richard Scott]

Of course, Napier's opposed-piston marine engine. I think the locomotives had a derived design, rather than it being a lift 'n' shift design straight from the fast marine vessel. Crankshaft speed on the EE type 5, I hazard a guess, was far higher than that in the marine craft.

I believe crank speed was same or lower, they certainly were derated from marine outputs, which were upwards of 2000hp.

 

[UP13]

Did you mean the class 42-43 Warships? The Deltics were named after racehorses and Army regiments.

I think he is referencing the naval deltic engine inside the locomotive...

 

[Sun Chariot]

I think he is referencing the naval deltic engine inside the locomotive...

Yes thanks, already covered posts 331 + 332

 

[Falcon1200]

I honestly don't think you can successfully promote them for the average audience, at least, not without a huge perception shift by the public.

I agree - Can the average visitor distinguish say a Class 47 from a 67? Whereas they can certainly tell the difference between a diesel and a steam loco, even when the latter is an industrial tank.

 

[Richard Scott]

I agree - Can the average visitor distinguish say a Class 47 from a 67? Whereas they can certainly tell the difference between a diesel and a steam loco, even when the latter is an industrial tank.

It's not about telling the difference between different classes. It's amazing that I can see general public enjoying heritage diesel hauled trains in other countries so it can't be the hardest sell.
Some of it is attitude of staff themselves, it's also about selling diesels as part of the experience. As I said in an earlier post Railways need to sell the whole experience, not just the train ride.
A lot of people do want to know about history of the line, how locos work etc.
And no, the general public can't always tell the difference between a steam and diesel. Heard a bloke last week tell his daughter than the 47 was a diesel and the 20 was a steam engine. Possibly an honest mistake given its shape but the fact the engine was running should have given it away?

 

[Tetragon213]

I agree - Can the average visitor distinguish say a Class 47 from a 67? Whereas they can certainly tell the difference between a diesel and a steam loco, even when the latter is an industrial tank.

It gets worse when you look at the myriad 37-esque looking boxes, aka the 37s, 40s, 44s, 45s, and 46s. Unless you were into the hobby, you probably wouldn't even realise there was much of a difference!

Here is also one of my big bugbears with the diesel community; getting even the most minute detail wrong usually riles them up something fierce, resulting in a very angry lecture. This inevitably pushes Johnny Public away from any interest in diesel, furthering the prevailing stereotypes which make diesel that much harder to sell. Not to mention that the time interval isn't really long enough for the rose-tinted spectacles to come on yet.

It's not about telling the difference between different classes. It's amazing that I can see general public enjoying heritage diesel hauled trains in other countries so it can't be the hardest sell.
Some of it is attitude of staff themselves, it's also about selling diesels as part of the experience. As I said in an earlier post Railways need to sell the whole experience, not just the train ride.
A lot of people do want to know about history of the line, how locos work etc.
And no, the general public can't always tell the difference between a steam and diesel. Heard a bloke last week tell his daughter than the 47 was a diesel and the 20 was a steam engine. Possibly an honest mistake given its shape but the fact the engine was running should have given it away?

I have tried "selling" diesel in the past to my colleagues at a rail contractor, by letting them know of charters and railtours going through. The most encouraging response I saw was complete indifference to the diesel tours, and that trended down to a quiet "god, he's weird" sentiment towards me.
Meanwhile, when I have mentioned kettles in the area, complete indifference is usually the least encouraging response, with the most encouraging being various historical questions, followed by a statement that they might take their kids to see it, or ask if I know any good photo spots.

Trying to overcome diesel's rather tainted-in-the-public-eye's image will be the biggest hurdle for trying to sell diesel in an attractive way.

 

[Ashley Hill]

getting even the most minute detail wrong usually riles them up something fierce,

I once painted a GWR signal box nameplate brown and cream which was not untypical in the 1950s. The letters of complaint ireceived would have kept a small post office in business for years

 

[Harpo]

It gets worse when you look at the myriad 37-esque looking boxes, aka the 37s, 40s, 44s, 45s, and 46s. Unless you were into the hobby, you probably wouldn't even realise there was much of a difference!

True of absolutely every collectable, conservable or preservable artifact however big or small. Including steam locos.

I could offer railway marketeers some thoughts on selling differing diesel types’ characters/characteristics, but take me past a line of Italian cars or through an art gallery and I’d not ‘get it’ without some very basic pointers.

 

[xotGD]

Here is also one of my big bugbears with the diesel community; getting even the most minute detail wrong usually riles them up something fierce, resulting in a very angry lecture.

I have never, ever witnessed this.

It is the steam community who are the rivet-counters.

 

[amahy]

Here is also one of my big bugbears with the diesel community; getting even the most minute detail wrong usually riles them up something fierce, resulting in a very angry lecture.

I have never, ever witnessed this.

It is the steam community who are the rivet-counters.

Have to disagree with both of you here: I've never witnessed anyone getting riled up about someone mis-identifying a locomotive!

It gets worse when you look at the myriad 37-esque looking boxes, aka the 37s, 40s, 44s, 45s, and 46s. Unless you were into the hobby, you probably wouldn't even realise there was much of a difference!

It's exactly the same with cars, but they're popular enough, yet all are essentially the same: 4 wheels, has an engine, goes vroom vroom! There is much more diversity in diesel locomotive designs than car designs.

 

[LGM08]

I have a friend who has precisely zero rail interest, but has considered trying to take a ride with Valiant at the ELR, specifically because he has familial connections to the HMS Valiant; iirc, his grandad or great uncle served aboard as an AA gunner.

Feel free to drop me a message if you want to come down and take a few pictures behind the scenes, even better if it’s on a Saturday. I’ll arrange something. We’re not sure on what running days we have yet as we’re currently doing some engine work.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Have to disagree with both of you here: I've never witnessed anyone getting riled up about someone mis-identifying a locomotive!

Then I'll have to disagree with all three of you, there's a minority in both camps that can get needlessly pedantic about the minutiae. Thankfully it is a minority, and I'm not convinced it's entirely serious in every case anyway. It's a people problem though, not a technology problem.
Steam will always be the bigger attraction to the general public, but sometimes circumstances necessitate diesel haulage. But you've already lost the battle if staff are bending over backwards to apologise for the diesel from the moment the customer steps into the booking hall. Yes, some people will be disappointed that they can't play at being on the Hogwarts Express, but rather than saying "We're very sorry but we're having to run diesels today." say "Just so you know, because of the dry conditions we're running historic diesels today." Don't apologise, just explain.

 

[norbitonflyer]

Have to disagree with both of you here: I've never witnessed anyone getting riled up about someone mis-identifying a locomotive!

I've seen comments on this forum emphatically calling someone out for getting everyone excited by saying they'd seen a Deltic in North Wales, when in fact it turned out to be a 37

 

[John Luxton]

From observations I made on Sunday at the Shrewsbury Steam Rally there was a lot of interest shown in the many vintage diesel trucks and and tractors and other i/c vehicles being paraded aroudn the showring - obviously "Joe Public" is interesting in seing these vehicles which ranged from 1930s to around 1990 there doesn't seem to be a need to sell diesels here. Yes more did gather to watch the steam parade in the afternoon but that was probably more down to it being around the time of maximum attendance - but even when the internal combustion engined vehicles were on parade there were sizeable numbers of watchers.

I/C vehicles at this big rally outnumber steam probably by around 4 to 1 or more.

So why should not a 1960s diesel loco not be as interesting as a 1960s truck / tractor / classic car / motorcycle to teh same "joe public". I sometimes wonder as far as railways are concerned we pre-judge people's perceptions?

 

[Harpo]

even when the internal combustion engined vehicles were on parade there were sizeable numbers of watchers.

Most rallies have a live commentary for these parades, which brings the exhibits alive. The very thing preserved lines fail to do when they’re doing their ‘sorry it’s a diesel’ bit.

 

[John Luxton]

Most rallies have a live commentary for these parades, which brings the exhibits alive. The very thing preserved lines fail to do when they’re doing their ‘sorry it’s a diesel’ bit.

But we don't usually have a live commentary for heritage railways unless it is perhaps special event.

 

[Belperpete]

So why should not a 1960s diesel loco not be as interesting as a 1960s truck / tractor / classic car / motorcycle to teh same "joe public". I sometimes wonder as far as railways are concerned we pre-judge people's perceptions?

1960s vintage road vehicles tend to be quite characterful, whereas 1960s diesel locos tend to be just identikit blue boxes. Aside from a few oddities, you basically have your small blue box, your large blue box, and your large blue box with a nose. I refer you to a previous post where a diesel afficionado explained how to tell the range of deltic/37 bullnose lookalikes apart by the number of window bars.

 

[Harpo]

But we don't usually have a live commentary for heritage railways unless it is perhaps special event.

I’d prefer no announcements at all on pres lines! My point though was about bringing stuff to life with their stories, histories, quirks etc..

 

[Sun Chariot]

My point though was about bringing stuff to life with their stories, histories, quirks etc..

Let's hope the heritage volunteers and staff are more clued-up than the author of East Lancashire Railway's "Meet the Locomotives" web content.

Attached is their long-standing howler about 45108:

• Top Facts:
  Nicknamed ‘Peak’ trains because Class 45s operated on Trans-Pennine routes across the Peak District

I suspect, it arose from asking an AI utility for a top fact...

 

[Tetragon213]

1960s vintage road vehicles tend to be quite characterful, whereas 1960s diesel locos tend to be just identikit blue boxes. Aside from a few oddities, you basically have your small blue box, your large blue box, and your large blue box with a nose. I refer you to a previous post where a diesel afficionado explained how to tell the range of deltic/37 bullnose lookalikes apart by the number of window bars.

This also follows on to my previous comments regarding aesthetics. Unless you were really into the hobby, you probably wouldn't see much beyond "big blue box with or without nose" when it came to diesels, HST aside. And following on to the Instagram generation, big blue boxes don't really look as attractive or aesthetic to the followers etc, as does the shining, polished brass, fire-breathing, coal-belching living engineering monster that is a steam locomotive.

HSTs tend to get a reasonable showing, as they look so uniquely different to anything running. In the same vein, I don't think a steamer like Bulleid's Leader would garner much attention owing to its rather boring appearance. Aesthetics play a big role, and you rarely get a second chance at a first impression.

 

[778]

1960s vintage road vehicles tend to be quite characterful, whereas 1960s diesel locos tend to be just identikit blue boxes. Aside from a few oddities, you basically have your small blue box, your large blue box, and your large blue box with a nose. I refer you to a previous post where a diesel afficionado explained how to tell the range of deltic/37 bullnose lookalikes apart by the number of window bars.

The class 14 probably has the most character of all the diesel loco classes.

 

[Belperpete]

The class 14 probably has the most character of all the diesel loco classes.

Have to admit that I had to look them up. Only a very limited number built, and one of the shortest-lived in service. Hardly an unqualified success, or one that most people will ever have encountered in mainline service. But aesthetically, they are a bit more pleasing to the eye than most diesels.

 

[norbitonflyer]

Have to admit that I had to look them up. Only a very limited number built, and one of the shortest-lived in service. Hardly an unqualified success, or one that most people will ever have encountered in mainline service. But aesthetically, they are a bit more pleasing to the eye than most diesels.

56 is hardly a small number, and their long lives in industrial use shows that they were quite capable locomotives.
It was unfortunate that the work for which they had been designed dried up so quickly, thanks to the Beeching report, which was published shortly after the class 14s were ordered.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 29 Aug 2025 ==

1960s vintage road vehicles tend to be quite characterful, whereas 1960s diesel locos tend to be just identikit blue boxes. Aside from a few oddities, you basically have your small blue box, your large blue box, and your large blue box with a nose.

Rev Awdry always seemed to have had a dislike of bonneted diesels as he always made them the less likeable ones. Both a Peak (D199 in Enterprising Engines) and a Class 40 ("Old Stuck up" in "Stepney the Bluebell" engine) are rude and unpleasant, whereas BoCo (first appearing in "Main Line Engines"), a Hymek called "Bear" ("Enterprising Engines"), Mavis (a Drewry Class 04, in Tramway Engines) and Pip and Emma (HST power cars in "Gordon the High Speed Engine") turn out to be quite friendly.

Whether this affects children's views of the different preserved diesels they might see at heritage railways is hard to say.

 

[Richard Scott]

Rev Awdry always seemed to have had a dislike of bonneted diesels as he always made them the less likeable ones. Both a Peak (D199 in Enterprising Engines) and a Class 40 ("Old Stuck up" in "Stepney the Bluebell" engine) are rude and unpleasant, whereas BoCo (first appearing in "Main Line Engines"), a Hymek called "Bear" ("Enterprising Engines"), Mavis (a Drewry Class 04, in Tramway Engines) and Pip and Emma (HST power cars in "Gordon the High Speed Engine") turn out to be quite friendly.

Whether this affects children's views of the different preserved diesels they might see at heritage railways is hard to say.

Experience says that, unless very young, it makes no difference. Even really young children it rarely causes a reaction.
Youngsters like to come in the cab and sit in the seat and see it as a positive experience. If engine running sometimes they are wary but if shut down then almost all will want to look in the cab. With a shut down engine quite a few like to look in the engine room so a diesel can give visitors an extremely positive experience, with a little input and thought from crew members.

 

[43096]

56 is hardly a small number, and their long lives in industrial use shows that they were quite capable locomotives.
It was unfortunate that the work for which they had been designed dried up so quickly, thanks to the Beeching report, which was published shortly after the class 14s were ordered.

They are ideal locos for preserved lines: with a top speed of 40mph and 650hp rating, they are more likely to be worked hard than bigger machines. And they sound fantastic.