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Why does France tax drivers so high, is road construction there expensive?

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Anetos

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I know their public transport is a lot better than ours and that they have an extensive highway network with higher speed limits (they are a bigger country) but 60 euros (more tolls than fuel) to drive from Paris to Marseille just doesn't seem right, and they apparently have a lot more accidents than us (twice as many per million) despite having the most roundabouts in the world!
 
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AlastairFraser

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I know their public transport is a lot better than ours and that they have an extensive highway network with higher speed limits (they are a bigger country) but 60 euros (more tolls than fuel) to drive from Paris to Marseille just doesn't seem right, and they apparently have a lot more accidents than us (twice as many per million) despite having the most roundabouts in the world!
I think it's just that they don't particularly want to subsidise the road industry to that extent, and so tolls are a convenient way of both paying for the motorway network's existence and discouraging local traffic, keeping the motorway free flowing.
In some traditionally deprived regions (e.g. Brittany), the autoroutes are free, because the toll income might not justify construction and better connections to the more densely populated and more prosperous areas were needed for regeneration.
 

Sorcerer

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I know their public transport is a lot better than ours and that they have an extensive highway network with higher speed limits (they are a bigger country) but 60 euros (more tolls than fuel) to drive from Paris to Marseille just doesn't seem right, and they apparently have a lot more accidents than us (twice as many per million) despite having the most roundabouts in the world!
In the age of a climate crisis this could be a good way of deterring people from using road transport when high-speed rail alternatives exist. Paris to Marseille is only three hours or so by TGV while driving could take twice as long, so if I were in charge I'd certainly want to try and encourage more people to take the train.
 

The exile

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I know their public transport is a lot better than ours and that they have an extensive highway network with higher speed limits (they are a bigger country) but 60 euros (more tolls than fuel) to drive from Paris to Marseille just doesn't seem right, and they apparently have a lot more accidents than us (twice as many per million) despite having the most roundabouts in the world!
The speed limits aren’t appreciably higher (120km/h vs our 112km/h on motorways) and drop by 20km/h in wet weather.
 

Cloud Strife

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but 60 euros (more tolls than fuel) to drive from Paris to Marseille just doesn't seem right

The simple answer is that these tolls have to cover the entire cost associated with the road. France also forces the concesssionaires to pay a kind of subsidy towards other transport in the regions where they operate, while at the end of the concession period, the concessionaire is obliged to return the motorway in top condition. At the same time, the privatisation of the "big three" concessionaires also meant transferring the total debt to the concessionaires, some of which was incurred in building other infrastructure that isn't tolled today.

As it stands, the French state has no debt liabilities and the concessionaires only have the use of the motorways for a fixed period. The French state has also strongarmed them into making various improvements to motorways at their cost, hence why tolls are quite high in France.
 

WibbleWobble

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The speed limits aren’t appreciably higher (120km/h vs our 112km/h on motorways) and drop by 20km/h in wet weather.
Speed limit is usually 130km/h on motorways, although some stretches are 110km/h and even 90km/h through urban areas.
 

Taunton

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I know their public transport is a lot better than ours and that they have an extensive highway network with higher speed limits (they are a bigger country) but 60 euros (more tolls than fuel) to drive from Paris to Marseille just doesn't seem right, and they apparently have a lot more accidents than us (twice as many per million) despite having the most roundabouts in the world!
This is a substantial misunderstanding.

For public transport France has :

- A substantial, recently invested, high speed rail network, providing you are going to/from Paris.
- A competent inner-city Metro in Paris, that is much of the urban area that tourists go to.

That's it. Rural public transport, which suddenly became thin in the 1938 rail nationalisation, which closed down half the rail mileage on the first day, has now effectively become completely denuded of even bus service. Cross country journeys, not involving Paris, are pretty challenging.

The road accident rate is common for mainland Europe. The outlier is the UK, which has way below the numbers you find elsewhere in Europe. France is by no means the worst.
 

nwales58

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I know their public transport is a lot better than ours and that they have an extensive highway network with higher speed limits (they are a bigger country) but 60 euros (more tolls than fuel) to drive from Paris to Marseille just doesn't seem right ...
There is a lot more to road user charging than this, unfortunately. For a start, how much comes from general taxation (and from national versus local taxes) and how much from users; how much commercial and private vehicles each pay, fixed amounts versus charges by distance.

If you are looking at a route planner giving you fuel+toll costs, clearly that is only part of the picture and very different between countries with tolling and those without. Others have covered France's toll motorway charging above
 

Trainman40083

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This is a substantial misunderstanding.

For public transport France has :

- A substantial, recently invested, high speed rail network, providing you are going to/from Paris.
- A competent inner-city Metro in Paris, that is much of the urban area that tourists go to.

That's it. Rural public transport, which suddenly became thin in the 1938 rail nationalisation, which closed down half the rail mileage on the first day, has now effectively become completely denuded of even bus service. Cross country journeys, not involving Paris, are pretty challenging.

The road accident rate is common for mainland Europe. The outlier is the UK, which has way below the numbers you find elsewhere in Europe. France is by no means the worst.
I've only really used the railways in France a couple of times. Yes, the high speed lines were good, but local lines could be infrequent and they stopped running at lunchtime. Maybe it has changed.
 

ABB125

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60 euros isn't unreasonable for a ~500 mile journey (approximately equivalent to London to Dundee), on high-quality roads that (apart from peak summer getaway season) are generally free-flowing. A bit more than I'd like to pay, but I don't think it's particularly objectionable in principle. I'd be willing to bet that if Britain had gone for tolled motorways rather than free, we'd have a much more comprehensive and free-flowing network.

Spanish tolls, on the other hand, are supposedly far higher than French ones (I'm sure I've read 2-4x higher, though don't quote me on that!), that does seem a bit of a rip-off...
 

AlastairFraser

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60 euros isn't unreasonable for a ~500 mile journey (approximately equivalent to London to Dundee), on high-quality roads that (apart from peak summer getaway season) are generally free-flowing.
Precisely, it's a bit like the M6 toll experience. Less cars, better road surfacing, less stress
 

ABB125

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Precisely, it's a bit like the M6 toll experience. Less cars, better road surfacing, less stress
Although the M6 toll is rather more expensive on a per-mile basis than in France (£10.50 standard car rate for 27 miles (39p/mile), compared to 12c/mile (so about 10p!) in the quoted French example)
 

Sir Felix Pole

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This is a substantial misunderstanding.

For public transport France has :

- A substantial, recently invested, high speed rail network, providing you are going to/from Paris.
- A competent inner-city Metro in Paris, that is much of the urban area that tourists go to.

That's it. Rural public transport, which suddenly became thin in the 1938 rail nationalisation, which closed down half the rail mileage on the first day, has now effectively become completely denuded of even bus service. Cross country journeys, not involving Paris, are pretty challenging.

The road accident rate is common for mainland Europe. The outlier is the UK, which has way below the numbers you find elsewhere in Europe. France is by no means the worst.
To be fair a lot of the smaller cities in France have tram systems unlike the UK - AI tells me that there are 27 modern systems in the country. So Dijon does - similar in size to Exeter - and further extensions have been authorised. So does Brest - similar in size to Plymouth - whilst Rennes of comparable size even has a metro. The urban bus networks in these cities are pretty comprehensive too.

The situation in the rural areas is, yes, dire, but things are improving. It depends on the region - Grand Est and Nouvelle Aquitaine are very pro-rail and are actively reopening lines and improving frequencies on others. Regular interval timetables - a concept hitherto alien to SNCF - are also becoming the norm. Unfortunately some regions like AURA are hostile - Occitanie's new service on the right bank of the Rhone abruptly ends at the border instead of logically continuing to Valence.
 

Killingworth

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I've driven widely in western Europe and paid tolls where due - but I've also made long trips avoiding tolls almost completely. It takes more planning and time. France is a large country and if you want to make progress a few tolls are no big thing. There are a lot of miles to maintain.
 

AlastairFraser

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Although the M6 toll is rather more expensive on a per-mile basis than in France (£10.50 standard car rate for 27 miles (39p/mile), compared to 12c/mile (so about 10p!) in the quoted French example)
True, I think that's a partly a fact of it being one of the only escapes from our usual congested linear car park motorways, while the congestion level on the mostly tolled French motorway network is much lower across the board.
 

Harpo

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French road tolls monetise commercial traffic that starts and finishes outside of France to the benefit of its own economy.

Any UK road toll for commercial traffic impacts almost entirely on the goods we buy and sell.
 

williamn

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60 euros to drive almost the length of the country seems entirely reasonable to me.

And as other have said, their public transport is not universally better than ours, particularity outside of Paris and the high speed lines. Even on the TGV lines prices can be high and services infrequent by UK standards.
 

4COR

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I've only really used the railways in France a couple of times. Yes, the high speed lines were good, but local lines could be infrequent and they stopped running at lunchtime. Maybe it has changed.
No - rural train services in France are fairly dire and started their decline in the 1930s (competition from motor vehicles). Many rural lines have infrequent and sparse services (with many SNCF run bus services) in contrast to the relatively excellent high speed network.
 

dutchflyer

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France's public transport is definitely not better than the UK!
Agree very much-only in the bigger cities it is-and also much cheaper, even more so for dozens of types of special (needy) groups of people. But on the countryside-also much, much bigger as UK has, it is much worse till non-existent. Best compare that with the most remote areas of Scotland.
It as such is better organised in publicity-as its all done by the departments and/or regions.
 

jupiter

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It’s not as though you don’t have an alternative. I spent the customary two, 5 1/2 hour days driving from Cherbourg to the south this summer. Once I was there I used the local roads rather than the autoroute. I don’t think it’s overpriced either, the surfaces are great and congestion levels, apart from far south, are very low.
 

The exile

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Speed limit is usually 130km/h on motorways, although some stretches are 110km/h and even 90km/h through urban areas.
Apologies - memories are of quite a long time ago!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

In some traditionally deprived regions (e.g. Brittany), the autoroutes are free, because the toll income might not justify construction and better connections to the more densely populated and more prosperous areas were needed for regeneration.
Guessing the reason that the Autoroute from Calais to Belgium is toll free is that the EU (or the Belgians?) paid for it. Otherwise it would be a classic transit traffic cash-cow (but might have to accept Sterling!!)
 

Snow1964

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I've driven widely in western Europe and paid tolls where due - but I've also made long trips avoiding tolls almost completely. It takes more planning and time. France is a large country and if you want to make progress a few tolls are no big thing. There are a lot of miles to maintain.
Completely avoiding tolls can add to stress and hours by needing to go through towns with congestion. But I would recommend planning and minimising it. Try this :
  • Leave Calais on the A16 / E402 motorway following signs for Boulogne, Amiens. The short toll section starts just before Boulogne.
  • Just before Abbeville, take the free A28 / E402 motorway to Rouen.
  • Entering Rouen the A28becomes the N28. Follow on down through the tunnel, then across the Seine (Rouen is a ZFE low emission zone, needing crit air sticker, can order online beforehand for about €5)
  • Then follow signs for Paris and Evreux then Evreux & Orleans . You will join the A13 motorway west of Rouen for another short toll section which you will pay when turning off motorway
  • About 10 km south or Rouen, leave the A13 motorway for the A154 motorway. Tollgate at the intersection.
  • Then follow the A154 > N154 dual carriageway almost to Dreux.At Dreux, follow signs for Chartres and Orleans.
  • After Dreux, the N154 is almost all modern dual-carriageway as far as Chartres.
  • From Chartres follow the N10 to Chateaudun, Vendôme and Tours. This is mostly single carriageway for 130 km, but there are sections of dual carriageway, notably round Vendôme. Before reaching Tours, the N10 becomes the D910.
  • On approaching Tours, follow signs for the A10 motorway, and join it at junction 19. Skirt round Tours on the toll motorway, then exit at junction 23, following the sign for D910 to Montbazon
  • Follow the D 910 all the way to Poitiers, skirting round the city. After Poitiers, the D910 once more turns into the N10 , which you now follow almost as far as Bordeaux. It is dual carriageway virtually all the way. Join the free A10 / E5 motorway shortly before Bordeaux, then follow signs for Bayonne

If you want to head more to central south, then from Orleans use tolled A71 or from Tours tolled A85, towards Vierzon, and aim for free A20 which runs to beyond Brive. If using A85, then at junction 13 take D956 and join A20 bit further south, as more direct (and more scenic)

Another option is to aim for Clermont Ferrand and join the free A75 to South coast, there is a short tolled section across the Milau viaduct.
 

4COR

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Guessing the reason that the Autoroute from Calais to Belgium is toll free is that the EU (or the Belgians?) paid for it. Otherwise it would be a classic transit traffic cash-cow (but might have to accept Sterling!!)
Not sure why you think it would have to accept sterling...!

The Peage (toll payment booths) on French autoroutes all accept card payments as well as cash, but there are also now "Flux Libre" (free flow) autoroutes where there are no payment stations, and instead you have to either have a tag ("bip and go") which takes payment automatically, or you log on and pay within 72 hrs against the registration plate. The A13/A14 in Normandy and the A71 in central France have all moved to this. I expect more will in the future.
 

Taunton

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Relative's WW1 British war cemetery is in the Somme. Arras is the nearest station and city, then there's a bus I see to Bapaume, halfway there, five times a day. Bapaume has a population of about 5,000, supermarkets, a ring road, a market, but that's it for its public transport, none in any other direction. Beyond it's only by car.

We went most recently by Eurostar to Lille, then a rental car from the station. Only alternative seemed taking our car on Le Shuttle. Most of the Paris autoroute to Bapaume is actually free, only beyond Arras is it charged. Notably huge number of foreign lorries, Spanish, Dutch, even Ukraine, on the autoroute.

Ironically the Paris TGV is now distantly visible from the cemetery.
 

stuu

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Guessing the reason that the Autoroute from Calais to Belgium is toll free is that the EU (or the Belgians?) paid for it. Otherwise it would be a classic transit traffic cash-cow (but might have to accept Sterling!!)
It's down to who built them. There's lots of free autoroutes - at least half of Calais-Rennes via Caen is free too. The paid ones are privately built and maintained, although some concessions did get state and European funding so it's a bit of a grey area, and the toll rates are inconsistent as a result.

I imagine there is a fair amount of politics involved in who builds the roads - as already mentioned Brittany has toll-free roads because of successful lobbying in the 1970s
 

railfan99

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France's public transport is definitely not better than the UK!

Agreed. Many connections on branch lines are lengthy and daily frequencies middling to poor.

Contrast that with the UK where often I am able to make quick connections with branch line trains operating hourly or in a few cases, better.
 

19Gnasher69

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From recollection, France doesn’t issue annual road fund licences so, presumably, in part at least, the tolls generate revenue that the UK would take from road fund tax. A much more progressive solution as the user pays (unless the driver chooses to avoid the autoroutes that is).
 
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