Urgent advice for appealing a fine for ₤1800

[Hapiland]

Hello,

Back in January, I was traveling on a CrossCountry service (Stafford -> Manchester) and when asked to present my Railcard, I found out at that moment that my railcard was been expired! My details were taken down, and I thought it was the end of it. Then a couple of weeks ago, I received a notice that I was under investigation and given 21 days to respond. Following the advice of posts I found on this forum, my response was honest and direct to the matter, sincere and apologetic, and that I was happy to settle their legal fees and cover the cost of the ticket.

Today, I received a letter, with a fine of ₤300 (settlement order) + ₤1500 (their calculated avoided fares), and 21 days to pay the cost. I don't know how to process seeing that amount, as I don't even think I have that amount of money to give.

---

I understand (partly) how they reached this number. I'm having trouble accessing the railcard to find its expiry date, but I think that it was expired for about 1 year. I was genuinely shocked when I opened the app, as I truly thought it was valid. I had been using a Railcard for several years before that point. Part of my disability is ADHD, this has a huge impact on my memory for handling tasks. Having always kept on top with keeping the railcard in date, paired with significant events in my own life, basically erased all thoughts of checking up on the railcard.

As it was expired for some time, It's clear that IRCAS have investigated my purchase history and found other invalid tickets.
But NO way should there be ₤1500 worth of them. Unless this amount includes the added fine per-ticket. I really need a receipt from IRCAS so they can show exactly how they calculated this value, as I am not a frequent/daily commuter.

---

I have no choice but to appeal this, but I need thoughts from those who understand all of this stuff better than I do. This is the first incident in my entire life, I dont like to and never intend to do wrong. I worry that they will see the expiry duration and view that as "how could you not have known or even checked in all that time, this is clear intent"

1) Over the entire duration where my railcard was expired, NOT ONCE did a conductor ever request to check it. If they had done so earlier, I could have avoided all of this. It is my responsibility to have a valid railcard, but is it not the responsibility of the train service to check? Could this aid the appeal? (though I am unusre what I would actually say)

2) Another dissability I have is Autism, which greatly impairs my judgement; At that time, I did not fully understand or appreciate what had actually happened when I got caught, looking back it should have been obvious when I was asked to provide my ID, as I know fines like this exist. Perhaps if a neurotypical was in that situation, it would have been obvious to them.
I have to question why the conductor did not offer an immediate chance for me to replace the ticket, which I would have been more than happy to do. And I question why there was not a clear and direct explanation of the situation.

Is there any hope that this could aid an appeal? I can provide IRCAS documents that show these lifelong dissabilities, which are a primary factor for how I got into this mess. And, without an immediate clear explanation or given the offer to purchase a valid ticket, it feels like the odds have been weighted against me.

3) IRCAS demand the fine to be paid in full, which for my circumstance is not viable. I am on Universal Credit, realistically the only way I could ever pay this fine is through installments. I have no idea what I am supposed to do if they only accept full payment. Is there anything which can be done?

---

I have limited time to handle this situation, so I hope somebody is able to offer assistance on what my plan should be.

Thank you to anyone who responds

 

[6Gman]

Hello,

Back in January, I was traveling on a CrossCountry service (Stafford -> Manchester) and when asked to present my Railcard, I found out at that moment that my railcard was been expired! My details were taken down, and I thought it was the end of it. Then a couple of weeks ago, I received a notice that I was under investigation and given 21 days to respond. Following the advice of posts I found on this forum, my response was honest and direct to the matter, sincere and apologetic, and that I was happy to settle their legal fees and cover the cost of the ticket.

Today, I received a letter, with a fine of ₤300 (settlement order) + ₤1500 (their calculated avoided fares), and 21 days to pay the cost. I don't know how to process seeing that amount, as I don't even think I have that amount of money to give.

---

I understand (partly) how they reached this number. I'm having trouble accessing the railcard to find its expiry date, but I think that it was expired for about 1 year. I was genuinely shocked when I opened the app, as I truly thought it was valid. I had been using a Railcard for several years before that point. Part of my disability is ADHD, this has a huge impact on my memory for handling tasks. Having always kept on top with keeping the railcard in date, paired with significant events in my own life, basically erased all thoughts of checking up on the railcard.

As it was expired for some time, It's clear that IRCAS have investigated my purchase history and found other invalid tickets.
But NO way should there be ₤1500 worth of them. Unless this amount includes the added fine per-ticket. I really need a receipt from IRCAS so they can show exactly how they calculated this value, as I am not a frequent/daily commuter.

---

I have no choice but to appeal this, but I need thoughts from those who understand all of this stuff better than I do. This is the first incident in my entire life, I dont like to and never intend to do wrong. I worry that they will see the expiry duration and view that as "how could you not have known or even checked in all that time, this is clear intent"

1) Over the entire duration where my railcard was expired, NOT ONCE did a conductor ever request to check it. If they had done so earlier, I could have avoided all of this. It is my responsibility to have a valid railcard, but is it not the responsibility of the train service to check? Could this aid the appeal? (though I am unusre what I would actually say)

2) Another dissability I have is Autism, which greatly impairs my judgement; At that time, I did not fully understand or appreciate what had actually happened when I got caught, looking back it should have been obvious when I was asked to provide my ID, as I know fines like this exist. Perhaps if a neurotypical was in that situation, it would have been obvious to them.
I have to question why the conductor did not offer an immediate chance for me to replace the ticket, which I would have been more than happy to do. And I question why there was not a clear and direct explanation of the situation.

Is there any hope that this could aid an appeal? I can provide IRCAS documents that show these lifelong dissabilities, which are a primary factor for how I got into this mess. And, without an immediate clear explanation or given the offer to purchase a valid ticket, it feels like the odds have been weighted against me.

3) IRCAS demand the fine to be paid in full, which for my circumstance is not viable. I am on Universal Credit, realistically the only way I could ever pay this fine is through installments. I have no idea what I am supposed to do if they only accept full payment. Is there anything which can be done?

---

I have limited time to handle this situation, so I hope somebody is able to offer assistance on what my plan should be.

Thank you to anyone who responds

I think your first step should be to ask them for a breakdown of the £1500 they are claiming for unpaid fares.

 

[notmyrealname]

Hi, welcome to the forum. It would help the pros here if you could show us copies of the correspondence between you and Cross Country. Make sure you obscure your personal details and any reference numbers, to keep this anonymous.

 

[Trainman40083]

Yes, ask for a breakdown. I would suggest that it may well include every journey you made since the Railcard expired. That will be charged at the full single fare for that journey.

 

[jfollows]

For example, Stafford-Manchester is now £33.60 single, £67.20 for each return journey.

 

[AlterEgo]

Good news. The train company is not able to bring a prosecution for any railway related offence. They are too late - they had six months since January, and that has lapsed. So, they can only claim losses via the County Court - a civil matter. What they've probably done is apply the Anytime Single fare to every instance you avoided the proper fare. A civil court is not likely to agree that they are entitled to do this; they are entitled to the actual losses, which, at most, is the value of the discounts improperly claimed. So, 50% on top of every ticket you bought (if a ticket cost £10 with your railcard, it should have cost you £15 - the loss there is £5.)

1. Ask them for a breakdown of all the fares.
2. Calculate and offer the difference in fares, explaining you cannot afford to repay in a lump and ask to pay in instalments. Do not apologise, do not explain yourself, simply make the offer.
3. Do not engage further other than to reiterate your position.

 

[Hapiland]

I cant find the copy of the first letter I received with the initial notice, but it explained when and what the incident was, that an investigation was currently open in regards to the incident and that they were awaiting my response. I have attached my first response in that letter. And I have also attached the order that arrived today.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 26 Aug 2025 ==

I think your first step should be to ask them for a breakdown of the £1500 they are claiming for unpaid fares.

Am I right in thinking the contact form to use for this, is https://www.ircas.co.uk/Home/ContactUs ?
I dont know if its them, or the appeals service that would give a breakdown

 

[Haywain]

The first step would have been not to reply at all as they are out of time to prosecute you, but as you have replied you will need to post up all of the correspondence so the we can help you with.

 

[Hapiland]

Just to confirm the date the first letter came through, it arrived sometime around the 10th of August

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 26 Aug 2025 ==

The first step would have been not to reply at all as they are out of time to prosecute you, but as you have replied you will need to post up all of the correspondence so the we can help you with.

Thats really unfortunate to hear now. Does that mean as I responded, they regain the ability to prosecute?

 

[SussexMan]

Does that mean as I responded, they regain the ability to prosecute?

No

 

[Hapiland]

Good news. The train company is not able to bring a prosecution for any railway related offence. They are too late - they had six months since January, and that has lapsed. So, they can only claim losses via the County Court - a civil matter. What they've probably done is apply the Anytime Single fare to every instance you avoided the proper fare. A civil court is not likely to agree that they are entitled to do this; they are entitled to the actual losses, which, at most, is the value of the discounts improperly claimed. So, 50% on top of every ticket you bought (if a ticket cost £10 with your railcard, it should have cost you £15 - the loss there is £5.)

1. Ask them for a breakdown of all the fares.
2. Calculate and offer the difference in fares, explaining you cannot afford to repay in a lump and ask to pay in instalments. Do not apologise, do not explain yourself, simply make the offer.
3. Do not engage further other than to reiterate your position.

For the breakdown, this is what I have written for it, does that sound right?

Today I received an Out Of Court Settlement Order, to the total of ₤1812.80.

This letter only states that this sum consists of a ₤300 as the settlement offer, plus ₤1512.80 of avoided fares.

I require a breakdown of every fare included in this sum.

Sincerely,
...

 

[SuspectUsual]

It would be better to sound a bit less confrontational, eg "please may I have a breakdown" rather than "I require"

 

[Hapiland]

It would be better to sound a bit less confrontational, eg "please may I have a breakdown" rather than "I require"

Made that change to it. Its all okay otherwise?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 26 Aug 2025 ==

I have a question regarding the 6 month lapse.

Good news. The train company is not able to bring a prosecution for any railway related offence. They are too late - they had six months since January, and that has lapsed. So, they can only claim losses via the County Court - a civil matter.

I believe you know what you're talking about, would you be possible to link to anything official which confirms this? Just for peace of mind so in the future I can cite something official to back it up

 

[notmyrealname]

I'll leave the forum pros to comment on the contents of your letter.

If you haven't already, start with Dear Sir or Madam, unless you have the name of the person who wrote. Add a heading in bold after that with their case reference number to help them find your file easily.

And finish with Yours faithfully if you don't have a name or Yours sincerely if you have a named person.

 

[Hapiland]

Okay, the message is all updated with these changes and looks right, and has been sent!

 

[AlterEgo]

Don't pay it.

I believe you know what you're talking about, would you be possible to link to anything official which confirms this? Just for peace of mind so in the future I can cite something official to back it up

You won't need to. Train companies should be well aware of this.

S127 Magistrates Court Act 1980:

127Limitation of time.​

(1)Except as otherwise expressly provided by any enactment and subject to subsection (2) below, a magistrates’ court shall not try an information or hear a complaint unless the information was laid, or the complaint made, within 6 months from the time when the offence was committed, or the matter of complaint arose.

(Railway specific offences are summary-only which means only a magistrates' court could ever deal with them)

 

[Hapiland]

Don't pay it.

You won't need to. Train companies should be well aware of this.

S127 Magistrates Court Act 1980:

127Limitation of time.​

(1)Except as otherwise expressly provided by any enactment and subject to subsection (2) below, a magistrates’ court shall not try an information or hear a complaint unless the information was laid, or the complaint made, within 6 months from the time when the offence was committed, or the matter of complaint arose.

(Railway specific offences are summary-only which means only a magistrates' court could ever deal with them)

Thank you! This is really good to read, knowing there's a chance this whole ordeal might not be so destructive, takes a lot of the stress away.

I wonder why the letter was sent at all once the 6-months elapsed, or why it took so long in the first place!

For the moment I'm waiting on the breakdown of the fares, in the mean-time, what do you suggest I do?

 

[AlterEgo]

I wonder why the letter was sent at all once the 6-months elapsed

To scare you and hope you wouldn't ask the internet if They Really Can Do That.

or why it took so long in the first place!

Who knows? Either way, too bad for them.

For the moment I'm waiting on the breakdown of the fares, in the mean-time, what do you suggest I do?

Nothing. Just wait. You can spin this our for a while. It's unlikely they can get their invented £300 costs back in court either if it ever went that far.

 

[Hapiland]

The main takeaway I have from this, is why exactly is the current system designed that purchasing a ticket, requires zero validation that there is a Railcard? It doesnt seem right for it to be nothing more than a checkbox, you should have to enter some # of your railcard to verify the discount is valid. I think the only verification has been when purchasing in a ticket office at stations like London Victoria.

Otherwise, it feels too open for abuse. It shouldnt have been possible in the first place for me to have ever been allowed to purchase those tickets, if I had known better I wouldnt have, but somebody less honest has full advantage to cheat the system!

 

[jfollows]

Lots of discussion on this forum already, but essentially you can buy a railcard-discounted ticket for someone else, or you can buy one for yourself without holding a valid railcard at purchase time as long as you hold one when you use the ticket. I often do the latter.

Buying at ticket offices usually requires presentation of a railcard, I agree.

 

[John R]

I have to question why the conductor did not offer an immediate chance for me to replace the ticket, which I would have been more than happy to do. And I question why there was not a clear and direct explanation of the situation.

Because lots of people "chance it", and if the only redress was buying a new ticket if spotted, even more people would do it, and the railway would lose even more millions in revenue from people who do set out to deliberately evade paying the correct fare.

Also, by reporting you for prosecution (which they are entitled to do as you were travelling without a valid ticket) rather than giving a penalty fare, it gives the back office time to research passengers' purchase history and recover the fares more than just the one occasion that you were stopped. The basis on which they calculate the fares is however undoubtedly penal though, which I suspect is why you are facing such a large bill.

As to your second question, what did you think was the purpose of taking your details down, having been found without a valid ticket and with a railcard that was a year out of date?

 

[Hapiland]

As to your second question, what did you think was the purpose of taking your details down, having been found without a valid ticket and with a railcard that was a year out of date?

Honestly if I had to give any answer of what I may have thought, for me, its likely that I saw it as some type of formality. Show the ticket+railcard, its out of date, so they took my details. They'd need my name, so of course ID is the way they can find that out. It's the first time anything like this has happened, so I doubt I expected my own actions could lead to a fine or legal trouble.

In the time since January, pretty much right away, I did realize what had actually occurred. Its always been in the back of my mind, but after 4 or 5 months, I figured they must have never filed a report.

Turns out they were just very very slow. There's a joke in here somewhere regarding them being on time

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 1 Sep 2025 ==

I havent heard anything back from IRCAS yet about a breakdown for the cost, so to be safe I contacted them again today just to try and speed things up.
But as this is a ticking clock issue, I need to work out my next move very soon. This settlement offer is for the 20th August, and with 21 days as its deadline, I'm left only with about 9 days.

Problem is, I have no idea what that next move should actually be.

I could contact their Appeal Service that IRCAS link too, I was hoping I would have the breakdown before I try to appeal, considering that it seems like the appeal must be done in full. But that may not work out.
But if what @AlterEgo says about the prosecution no longer being valid, and that now it is a civil matter, I dont know if I should be appealing that way.
Maybe I will be trying to appeal a prosecution that has already expired, so its not actually in their hands anymore.

The other option is I contact my nearest civil court, the only thing my local council has for that is an email, but I'm totally out of my depth here, so I have no real idea what the correct thing I should write in that.

Any thoughts or advice would be much appreciated!

 

[John R]

As they are out of time to prosecute, there isn’t a need for you to reply by the deadline. Wait to hear back from them.

 

[AlterEgo]

The other option is I contact my nearest civil court

For what? I'm confused. There are no proceedings against you at this stage.

 

[WesternLancer]

I could contact their Appeal Service that IRCAS link too, I was hoping I would have the breakdown before I try to appeal, considering that it seems like the appeal must be done in full. But that may not work out.

Do not do this IMHO (and others are pointing out why you have no need to do so anyway)

I think I am correct to say:

IRCAS are a contractor - they run the Appeals system for the Penalty Fares system (the notices you often see at stations about £100 fines for travel without a valid ticket) I think for some or many train operators. But you have not had a Penalty fare . A Penalty Fare has a right of Appeal. What happened to you has no right of appeal so there is no point in contacting the Appeals Service I think.

But

IRCAS also run all or part of the revenue protection back office work for Cross Country Trains (sending out letters demanding sums for unpaid fares, threatening court action, and possibly actually taking cases to court for Cross Country Trains), this is why their address is probably on the letter you have received about what happened. This process has no right of Appeal (had they been in touch with you in under 6 months you have two options - pay the sum they demand as an out of court settlement - or be taken to court and prosecuted in the magistrates court for a a railway ticket offence.

What people are saying to you here is that they can not any longer take you to court for the offence (but they could take you to court to try and claim the unpaid fares as a civil action AIUI). These are not things you can submit appeals about.

I hope I have this correct - no doubt I will get corrected if not by helpful forum members.

If you are not sure of the process that has happened to you I suggest it would be best for you to ask a few more question on here to help you get it clear in your mind what the process is, what happened, and what might happen next.

 

[Hapiland]

I finally got a response from the fraud department, which reiterates what was written in the most recent letter with the fine amount. They have also included the breakdown of the fare, I dont think I can share a copy of that document.

But I will reveal that the contents of it shows the first fare was for the 28/10/2024, Stafford>Manchester Piccadilly (return) which has been charged as £97.60. There are 15 of these tickets in the breakdown. Also a single to Manchester which is £48.80.

I shall contact citizens advice now I have this additional information, they should be able to point me in the direction of who to contact or to explain my rights, the closer the deadline gets the more I'm starting to worry the outcome might go south for me

 

[NorthWestRover]

I'm not one of the experts here at all, and with due respect to those working in Citizens Advice, but the advice you'll get here will be far better informed. These are the best people to help you - there are some with legal background, some who have previously worked in this area for the railway, some who have become real experts in ticketing matters. This is your place. Whatever Citizens Advice tell you check it out here first.

 

[AlterEgo]

I shall contact citizens advice now I have this additional information, they should be able to point me in the direction of who to contact or to explain my rights,

They will just tell you to contact a solicitor because you are potentially being sued and tell you about some debt charities. They cannot give you legal advice. I very much doubt they would even know about the six month deadline for summary only offences, even.

 

[Hapiland]

Okay, noted. I'll stick with the forum.

It's just that with 6 days left before the letter says the matter must be resolved, or legal proceedings will be taken against me (regardless of the fact that this letter is past the 6 month window), I cant help to feel a little anxious.

If this is now a civil court matter, maybe I should contact my nearest civil court? I dont know how any of it works, but maybe its better if I can get to that court first before a magistrates court has a chance to send me anything. But this is a total laymans understanding

 

[AlterEgo]

If this is now a civil court matter, maybe I should contact my nearest civil court? I dont know how any of it works, but maybe its better if I can get to that court first before a magistrates court has a chance to send me anything. But this is a total laymans understanding

What do you want to contact the court about? What do you hope to gain from doing so? XC haven't issued any proceedings against you.

The magistrates court is a criminal court. They will not be involved. You are thinking of the county court which deals with civil matters.