Just how separate are King's Cross and St Pancras?

[fwsmVor]

Can you walk from one to another without leaving Network Rail property (so not going via LU KXSP which is cheating)? Bonus points for without going through a gateline. Probably just little staff-only warrens for that. Do they have a common fleet of those little PRM buggies? Common station staff? Has a train ever called at both in succession, perhaps in the last days of KX Thameslink and the first of StP Thameslink?

 

[Bigfoot]

Can you walk from one to another without leaving Network Rail property (so not going via LU KXSP which is cheating)?

I'd have a guess that the road that runs between the stations might get in the way if you can't use LU...

 

[Vexed]

Has a train ever called at both in succession, perhaps in the last days of KX Thameslink and the first of StP Thameslink?

I wouldn't be surprised if this has happened at some point in disruption where a service has left the low level KX / St Pancras Thameslink platforms then turned back to the main Kings Cross shed.

 

[357]

Can you walk from one to another without leaving Network Rail property (so not going via LU KXSP which is cheating)? Bonus points for without going through a gateline. Probably just little staff-only warrens for that. Do they have a common fleet of those little PRM buggies? Common station staff? Has a train ever called at both in succession, perhaps in the last days of KX Thameslink and the first of StP Thameslink?

The stations are completely separate and there is a road between them

 

[m0ffy]

As for staffing, GTR might pool staff across both stations, but one is owned and run by Network Rail, and the other by London St Pancras Highspeed (what was wrong with HS1 Ltd?).

 

[Magdalia]

At street level Pancras Road is a barrier between the 2 stations. This is a busy road especially for taxis as it serves both drop off and pick up for Kings Cross plus drop off for St Pancras.

The Kings Cross St Pancras Underground station has 2 walkways under Pancras Road, one near Euston Road and one near Kings Boulevard. Both of these are outside the barrier line.

Kings Cross has three barrier lines, platforms 0-8, platforms 9/10 and the archway from the mezzanine level to the footbridge, with free movement between each barrier line and all platforms, though some are a long walk.

St Pancras (excluding Eurostar) also has 3 barrier lines, one each for East Midlands platforms 1-4, South Eastern platforms 11-13 and Thameslink platforms A/B, but these are all completely separate and it is not possible to move between each group on the platform side of the barrier lines.

As far as I'm aware there are no Cluedo style secret passages.

Has a train ever called at both in succession, perhaps in the last days of KX Thameslink and the first of StP Thameslink?

I would be very very surprised if this had ever happened. It is almost impossible to envisage any circumstances where this could be done but going to Finsbury Park or Kentish Town could not.

Kings Cross Thameslink closed and St Pancras International Low Level opened in 2007, and the Canal Tunnel opened in 2018, so it is a definite no for Kings Cross in the last days of Kings Cross Thameslink and the first of St Pancras International Low Level.

I used Kings Cross Thameslink on the last Friday before it closed and St Pancras International Low Level on the first Monday it opened; it was a very smooth transition.

 

[Jimini]

If I’m remembering it correctly, didn’t they sever the line between St. Pancras and Kings X Thameslink for a few months while they did the necessary work? Trains headed south into St.Pancras terminated on the right side of the train shed, and you had to walk to Kings X Thameslink to continue south? Or am I just old and I’ve misremembered that

 

[Dr Hoo]

If I’m remembering it correctly, didn’t they sever the line between St. Pancras and Kings X Thameslink for a few months while they did the necessary work? Trains headed south into St.Pancras terminated on the right side of the train shed, and you had to walk to Kings X Thameslink to continue south? Or am I just old and I’ve misremembered that

You are correct. I was commuting through St Pancras during that period. However the terminating trains used the eastern/ ‘right hand’ side of the new extension, not the Barlow shed.

 

[Jimini]

You are correct. I was commuting through St Pancras during that period. However the terminating trains used the eastern/ ‘right hand’ side of the new extension, not the Barlow shed.

Nice one, thanks for clarifying. I used to work in Borehamwood of all places during that period, so had the daily “must not buy a McMuffin” dilemma when walking between the two

Are those platforms we used to use at STP now the SouthEastern HS ones?

 

[plugwash]

Can you walk from one to another without leaving Network Rail property (so not going via LU KXSP which is cheating)?

For that matter could you walk from the mainline kings cross station to Kings cross thameslink without passing through LU owned/controlled areas?

 

[Dr Hoo]

Nice one, thanks for clarifying. I used to work in Borehamwood of all places during that period, so had the daily “must not buy a McMuffin” dilemma when walking between the two

Are those platforms we used to use at STP now the SouthEastern HS ones?

I think that there were four platforms, so must have used part of one that became a Eurostar platform as well.

For that matter could you walk from the mainline kings cross station to Kings cross thameslink without passing through LU owned/controlled areas?

Once upon a time, back in the 'Bed-Pan' era, King's Cross 'Met' was rebuilt and enlarged as a BR-run station for the Moorgate services, albeit with direct within-barrier access to the Victoria Line via new bored passageways; so you could walk at street level between St Pancras, King's Cross (Main) and the new facility, without going through Underground barriers. (One of my first BR jobs was a grade 1 clerk working on the project.)

On the street level walks you were usually accosted with all sorts of offers of exotic 'experiences' or substances.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Is the subway that runs under the road from just outside the South Eastern Railway side of St Pancras to King's Cross owned by Network Rail or London Underground?

 

[Sakuradori]

I work at Kings Cross and go between the stations every now and then, so I'll answer some of these to the best of my knowledge too, but I doubt I'll add that much new information.

Can you walk from one to another without leaving Network Rail property (so not going via LU KXSP which is cheating)?

No. Pancras Road (A5202) isn't Network Rail property, as best as I can tell, as Camden Council is the highway authority for it (if someone could please clarify that this does actually rule out the road being NR property)

Bonus points for without going through a gateline. Probably just little staff-only warrens for that.

No, absolutely not for customers, and I'm not aware of any staff tunnels linking the two. Unless you want to count the York Way tunnels, Hotel Curve etc. into the old KX Thameslink, and back along the track that way? Does NR still own all that track? Did it ever?

Do they have a common fleet of those little PRM buggies?

No. I don't think St. Pancras has PRM buggies (I've never seen them anyway, unless Eurostar has them for their platforms), there's not much space for them, or much point either as every platform is either raised or underground. The KX ones aren't allowed past the station perimeter anyway.

Common station staff?

I don't want to speak for Thameslink but I could swear I've seen one of their dispatchers work in both.

Has a train ever called at both in succession, perhaps in the last days of KX Thameslink and the first of StP Thameslink?

Under normal operation, I doubt it but haven't checked, and will defer to the people that have already replied.
Wasn't there a charter a few months back that was stopping at all the London terminuses? I don't think even that went KX to St.P.

Is the subway that runs under the road from just outside the South Eastern Railway side of St Pancras to King's Cross owned by Network Rail or London Underground?

I think at least the part with the LU ticket office is LU property, from the doors onwards.

 

[The exile]

As they have always been part of two separate operational entities it seems very unlikely that there would have been. The only organisations likely to have had a reason to link the two under Pancras Road (other than LT) are the Post Office and just possibly British Transport Hotels. The first would have had little need to at this location and the second wouldn’t have had the budget , however tempting sharing services between the Midland and Great Northern Hotels might have been.

 

[Magdalia]

As they have always been part of two separate operational entities it seems very unlikely that there would have been. The only organisations likely to have had a reason to link the two under Pancras Road (other than LT) are the Post Office and just possibly British Transport Hotels. The first would have had little need to at this location and the second wouldn’t have had the budget , however tempting sharing services between the Midland and Great Northern Hotels might have been.

The Midland Grand closed as a hotel in the 1930s, before nationalisation.

The Post Office access to St Pancras was through the arch next to what is now the Betjeman Arms, directly onto a wide carriage road between platforms 5 and 6. This is best seen in the opening credits of BBC TV's Porridge.

It is impossible to see where the Post Office had access at Kings Cross but there is a clue is in the name of the Parcel Yard pub.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

I think at least the part with the LU ticket office is LU property, from the doors onwards.

Remind me, as I haven't used it for a while ( quicker to walk on the surface!! ); does one have to pass through the doors to get between King's Cross and St Pancras stations that way?

 

[Dr Hoo]

Remind me, as I haven't used it for a while ( quicker to walk on the surface!! ); does one have to pass through the doors to get between King's Cross and St Pancras stations that way?

There are fire doors, normally magnetised in the open position, in both subways.

 

[Russel]

So to summarise this thread.

Almost completely.

 

[Mozd]

I have a vague memory, admittedly possibly false, of everyone having to get off a Northbound train at Kings Cross Thameslink and walk over to St P to continue our journey. In those days there were catering trollies on some Thameslink trains and to my surprise, when I got on a train at St P it was the same person working the trolley. So presumably it was the same train we had to get off and the train had gone from KX Thameslink to St P. This might well have been in the days of the old St Pancras, before Eurostar went there. Could that have happened, or is my memory playing tricks?

 

[swt_passenger]

I have a vague memory, admittedly possibly false, of everyone having to get off a Northbound train at Kings Cross Thameslink and walk over to St P to continue our journey. In those days there were catering trollies on some Thameslink trains and to my surprise, when I got on a train at St P it was the same person working the trolley. So presumably it was the same train we had to get off and the train had gone from KX Thameslink to St P. This might well have been in the days of the old St Pancras, before Eurostar went there. Could that have happened, or is my memory playing tricks?

The service was split in half for a couple of years while the new St Pancras low level station box was dug out and built. Bedford line trains ran into the interim St Pancras high level station (now SE platforms). Nothing ran through the tunnels while the box was being built. But the through service restarted using the original Kings Cross Thameslink for a while, as initially the new low level station wasn’t yet fitted out for passenger service.

 

[Bald Rick]

I think that there were four platforms, so must have used part of one that became a Eurostar platform as well.

6 platforms for some of the block.

Is the subway that runs under the road from just outside the South Eastern Railway side of St Pancras to King's Cross owned by Network Rail or London Underground?

Yes!

It’s LSPH for most of the way from St P, and then a few metres before the subway opens out into the LU Northern ticket hall, it swaps to LU. The giveaeay is that the floor tiling changes (and for those particualrly sensitive, the antislip treatment on the tiles is more abrasive on the LU side) Standards, eh.

 

[Trailfinder]

Just for interest.

While working in Heathrow departures T2 check-in, I discovered 2 Kings Cross baggage trolleys. Of course they are not compatible with Heathrow baggage trolleys.

I wonder if they ever got returned!

 

[Sakuradori]

That's very funny, when was that? They all go missing quite regularly.

 

[Sad Sprinter]

If I’m remembering it correctly, didn’t they sever the line between St. Pancras and Kings X Thameslink for a few months while they did the necessary work? Trains headed south into St.Pancras terminated on the right side of the train shed, and you had to walk to Kings X Thameslink to continue south? Or am I just old and I’ve misremembered that

Yes I remember, I loved my trips into St Pancras on a 319 from Kentish Town.

 

[flitwickbeds]

Does anyone know where the mid-platform ramps (stairs?) on platforms 1-4 (EMR) go?

 

[Sakuradori]

Does anyone know where the mid-platform ramps (stairs?) on platforms 1-4 (EMR) go?

They're emergency exits, they go to the doors on Midland Road. I have, however, seen two (people that looked like) passengers come up those stairs and I've convinced myself that they're part of some secret staff area. If nobody has answered by tomorrow, I'll ask on my way home.