Websites incorrectly applying Railcard discounts to additional travellers

[Skie]

Our internal portal, provided by "corporate travel management" (catchy name!), seems to have a bug that if you apply a railcard that has an optional 2nd traveller (like a Veterans railcard) to a person on a group booking, it applies it to everyone on the booking. It has an explicit dropdown for each traveller to have a railcard assigned, so this feels very buggy and not user error. You don't see this happen until you actually pick the ticket up/look at the e-ticket itself. Sure, you can probably tell by digging into the ticket prices, but those arent listed individually and you just get a total price.

My colleague is in the middle of a maddening email chain with them where they have eventually claimed it's by design because a second person can travel. Which makes zero sense since the first time we saw this happen was with a group of 5 people where everyone was given a railcard discount despite it being set for just one person. Luckily it was spotted before they travelled and they were able to get them refunded and rebooked. They thought it was user error at first, but when it happened again a few months later they alerted us and we got in touch with the travel provider.

I know I saw a comment recently stating there are existing data issues with multi-person railcards and how websites handle them, but for us the worry is someone (or a large group) ends up getting into bother with a revenue check. The travel management people seem to be washing their hands of the issue, which is frustrating.

Any of the forum experts know what would happen if we did have staff get caught up by this? And is there another way to escalate it if it is indeed a wider industry issue?

 

[yorkie]

It must be an issue with the specific ticketing issuing system (TIS) this portal uses; it's not a wider industry issue.

 

[Titfield]

Is that Corporate Travel Management North aka CTM based in Bradford by any chance?

 

[Skie]

Is that Corporate Travel Management North aka CTM based in Bradford by any chance?

Yep!

 

[BlueLeanie]

Did the employer buy the Railcard for the member of staff?

If not the solution is to stop giving the employer the benefit of your private purchase.

 

[alistairlees]

There is a known problem with the data for the veterans railcard - basically there is only one set of data for a veterans railcard, yet there are actually two types of veterans railcard. I’ve raised this a few times.

 

[Wallsendmag]

There is a known problem with the data for the veterans railcard - basically there is only one set of data for a veterans railcard, yet there are actually two types of veterans railcard. I’ve raised this a few times.

As have others but nobody seems bothered

 

[alistairlees]

As have others but nobody seems bothered

We should get this sorted out.

 

[Adam Williams]

As have others but nobody seems bothered

Can say that about almost every data quality problem in this industry

 

[Haywain]

We should get this sorted out.

Good luck with that.

 

[Titfield]

Yep!

I thought it might be as I have had problems with CTM not applying the railcard discount correctly.

I regret to say I now book my rail travel direct with the TOC and recover the costs through my expenses. I do visit the ctm portal and take a screen shot of the wrong fare before I go to the toc site to book the ticket i need. I do this as back up for the inevitable day when my employer will question why I am not following mandated travel policy.

 

[BlueLeanie]

I thought it might be as I have had problems with CTM not applying the railcard discount correctly.

I regret to say I now book my rail travel direct with the TOC and recover the costs through my expenses. I do visit the ctm portal and take a screen shot of the wrong fare before I go to the toc site to book the ticket i need. I do this as back up for the inevitable day when my employer will question why I am not following mandated travel policy.

Why are you using your personal railcard to book work travel?

You're just asking for trouble down the line by refusing to follow mandated travel policy.

 

[AlterEgo]

Why are you using your personal railcard to book work travel?

Why would you not use your railcard to reduce the company's costs? This was entirely normal and proper even when I worked for the Big Evil Civil Service.

 

[Alex C.]

I think more employers should allow expensing a railcard. It's a minimal expense but can result in some significant savings for the company. I worked for a big 4 accountancy firm who allowed all employees to expense a railcard once a year. Tiny cost for them but huge savings, particularly for those travelling on the railcards that allow peak travel.

 

[Titfield]

My employer expenses my railcard but because it is a taxable benefit I am taxed on the value. I do not mind this because I also use it for some personal travel.

I purchased the three year card (which meant I had to get the cost reimbursed over three years) and because there was a deal from a well known rail travel retailer got a further 30% off.

Perhaps I am old fashioned but I do take pride in (a) minimising the impact on the public purse (b) using my skill as a travel professional to get the best deal appropriate for my work needs.

 

[Adam Williams]

because it is a taxable benefit I am taxed on the value

Surely it is a trivial BIK if the employer organises payment for a one year Railcard?

 

[Hadders]

I used my personal railcard, where appropriate, when undertaking business travel for my former employers.

I also know that in certain siituations, the organisations would sometimes purchase railcards for employees where it would result in the business saving money on the cost of rail travel.

 

[BlueLeanie]

Why would you not use your railcard to reduce the company's costs? This was entirely normal and proper even when I worked for the Big Evil Civil Service.

Well, I can see the benefit in some ways.

You could use it as an excuse to avoid the corporate travel system and get loads of lovely points and cashback via your personal credit card.

Also easy to overclaim for the cost of a ticket as there will be no data capture at point of sale. "There were no advance tickets available, so I just got a standard open return with my railcard - here's the receipt". In the meantime you've kept the receipt, but got a refund on the tickets, and driven the journey for considerably less.

 

[Skie]

I also know that in certain situations, the organisations would sometimes purchase railcards for employees where it would result in the business saving money on the cost of rail travel.

This is how we do it. If you can evidence you travel for work frequently enough for it to pay itself back, we’ll fund your railcard. You’re expected to keep a log demonstrating the savings over the year which then makes next years application simple.

Only for certain railcards though, not all. Veterans is definitely one of them.

 

[Hadders]

Well, I can see the benefit in some ways.

You could use it as an excuse to avoid the corporate travel system and get loads of lovely points and cashback via your personal credit card.

Also easy to overclaim for the cost of a ticket as there will be no data capture at point of sale. "There were no advance tickets available, so I just got a standard open return with my railcard - here's the receipt". In the meantime you've kept the receipt, but got a refund on the tickets, and driven the journey for considerably less.

You can still use the corporate travel website with your own railcard. That's what I used to do with previous employers.

 

[Adam Williams]

Also easy to overclaim for the cost of a ticket as there will be no data capture at point of sale. "There were no advance tickets available, so I just got a standard open return with my railcard - here's the receipt". In the meantime you've kept the receipt, but got a refund on the tickets, and driven the journey for considerably less.

Any org with a clue will require screenshots of the search results to substantiate out-of-policy claims like that (if their travel policy requires using Advances; many do not), if they do choose to allow employees to use a retailer of their choice (and if employees are choosing to do this rather than use whatever system is provided for them to use, it's a good sign that you prioritised the wrong things when selecting your TMC supplier, in my opinion)

And ultimately, I think if you can't trust your employees you have far greater problems.

 

[AlterEgo]

Well, I can see the benefit in some ways.

You could use it as an excuse to avoid the corporate travel system and get loads of lovely points and cashback via your personal credit card.

...no? We are talking about using a railcard here. You just use the company provided site.

 

[Egg Centric]

if employees are choosing to do this rather than use whatever system is provided for them to use, it's a good sign that you prioritised the wrong things when selecting your TMC supplier, in my opinion)

Do you have stats behind that (appreciate they may be commercially sensitive)? My guess would be there's quite the intersection between employees who would bother doing that and ones who will set things up to maximise their personal cashback/incentives and thus no TMC could possibly tempt them away if they're going to get 10% back on their Amex if they expense it... then there's others like most of the forum booking site users who I assume are doing it to assist the forum (I certainly am although am still forced to use our TMC now sometimes)

 

[Adam Williams]

Do you have stats behind that (appreciate they may be commercially sensitive)? My guess would be there's quite the intersection between employees who would bother doing that and ones who will set things up to maximise their personal cashback/incentives and thus no TMC could possibly tempt them away if they're going to get 10% back on their Amex if they expense it... then there's others like most of the forum booking site users who I assume are doing it to assist the forum (I certainly am although am still forced to use our TMC now sometimes)

No hard numbers - only gut feeling and past experience. Cashback has kinda been nerfed a bit now by the interchange caps, I would've thought...used to be much more significant.

Back when I was working in HE (and consultancy before that) it was mostly something people did because the UI with Trainline or whatever was better for actually getting things done. Key Travel were super unpopular and had a reputation for being useless (finance loved them though). I remember trying to book a flight with one of those agencies once and it was significantly more expensive than it would've been booking direct with Flybe, plus you had the latency of the person at the TMC faffing around before replying to your emails etc.

 

[BlueLeanie]

Cashback has kinda been nerfed a bit now by the interchange caps, I would've thought...used to be much more significant.

It's been 10% on Amex until very recently, I'm sure it will be back soon.

Today I'm getting 8% cashback on Barclaycard at LNER and 8% on Virgin Money.

 

[Adam Williams]

It's been 10% on Amex until very recently, I'm sure it will be back soon.

Today I'm getting 8% cashback on Barclaycard at LNER and 8% on Virgin Money.

Oh, I was referring to the card scheme cashback (that Amex offer on everything) rather than the LNER "throwing taxpayer money down the drain" cashback

 

[Egg Centric]

Oh, I was referring to the card scheme cashback (that Amex offer on everything" rather than the LNER "throwing taxpayer money down the drain" cashback

Yah it's the latter I'm referring to. As I said I generally use the forum site for work rail travel (which I don't do *that* much anyway compared to some, but it'll surely be four figures yearly) but if it wasn't for the "fund the forum" reason I'd be all over the LNER cashback. Maybe some people value their time too much to do that but I certainly don't

 

[Hadders]

In my experience large companies insust you use their corporate travel provider when booking business travel. The reasons for this are:

- invoicing and cost centre charging is easier
- reporting on who has booked what etc (at my former work my boss used to get an email when I booked anything!)
- i suspect the company got some commission from the corporate travel provider
- the company knows who is where - important if something goes seriously wrong eg a major incident, terrorist activity etc. (again, ay my former employer this was a big thing as they would have staff all over the world at any one time so knowing who was where was important in the event of trouble)

There's nothing preventing you from using a railcard when making a booking, and I did so frequently. But I couldn't use my personal credit card as the cost was automatically invoiced to and paid by the company.

If I booked a rail ticket that wasn't the cheapest then there was a 'please explain' box that you had to complete. With some expert knowledge it was possible to avoid this box showing by using appropriate routeings etc. to make sure I was only ever offered the fare I wanted

There were sometimes expenses that I had to use my personal credit card for and claim back - for example fuel for business mileage, car parking, some meals when away on business and I would make sure I used the credit card that was most advantegeous.

 

[Egg Centric]

If I booked a rail ticket that wasn't the cheapest then there was a 'please explain' box that you had to complete.

Oh I love that on our new system (we were a startup with a culture of "take the wee wee on expenses" who have been taken over by a big company, but are still basically operating independently and ignoring all their stupid policies until we get screwed) because when it comes down to hotels it's a drop down with a few reasons, not even free text. But hilariously one is "personal preference". I'm not making that up. So still doing whatever I like while it lasts

 

[35B]

Well, I can see the benefit in some ways.

You could use it as an excuse to avoid the corporate travel system and get loads of lovely points and cashback via your personal credit card.

Also easy to overclaim for the cost of a ticket as there will be no data capture at point of sale. "There were no advance tickets available, so I just got a standard open return with my railcard - here's the receipt". In the meantime you've kept the receipt, but got a refund on the tickets, and driven the journey for considerably less.

There are plenty of ways to capture outright fraud such as you describe, without needing to compel staff to use a company provided booking service or even compelling them to use the corporate credit card for direct settlement. I've known cases where people have tried it, and it's always ended very badly for them. If we're trusted to do our jobs by the company, we ought also to be trusted to do straightforward tasks without being assumed to be on the fiddle.

More practically, for UK travel, I've never had an issue with booking through TOC websites or TrainSplit; I wouldn't consider going "independent" on foreign travel because of the wider integrations on employee location. I'm also aware that the rates I can get through our provider are generally competitive - and as there's no particular issue about claiming points, there's no incentive to dodge the policy.