Mixed Passenger Freight circa 1978 Dunblane

[Dunblane80]

I have a memory of there being a mixed passenger freight calling at Dunblane southbound mid-morning on a Saturday; it may also have been through the week.

I recall it consisting of a Brake Standard Open (BSO) type carriage, a Tourist Standard Open (TSO) type followed by a Brake Guard (BG) coach, and then VEA vans. It was class 25 hauled.

It was almost like a 1S81 return trip.

I cannot find anything online about it.

Can anyone help? Any info would be welcome, especially timings and consists. Thank you

 

[BlueLeanie]

So, after a Google 1S81 was a service that ran from Carlisle to Perth every evening.

It seems sensible that the stock would have to return to Carlisle on a daily basis!

Looks like a useful service to connect with WCML services at Carlisle without a cross-Glasgow bus/walk.

 

[matchmaker]

Small correction - BG is Brake Gangwayed.

 

[Magdalia]

I have a memory of there being a mixed passenger freight calling at Dunblane southbound mid-morning on a Saturday; it may also have been through the week.

I recall it consisting of a Brake Standard Open (BSO) type carriage, a Tourist Standard Open (TSO) type followed by a Brake Guard (BG) coach, and then VEA vans. It was class 25 hauled.

It was almost like a 1S81 return trip.

I cannot find anything online about it.

Can anyone help? Any info would be welcome, especially timings and consists. Thank you

I think that I can get part of the way to the answer here, but the full answer will need either someone Scottish with a long memory or someone who has the relevant carriage working notices.

In 1980 and 1981 the train you describe briefly ran as an advertised passenger train 1D50 1014 Perth-Motherwell. I never travelled on 1D50 but I have heard mythical tales of single type 2s staggering up Gleneagles and Cumbernauld banks hauling 2 coaches and lots of vans. These were non passenger carrying coaching stock (NPCCS) not freight vans, but in the 1970s might have included some 4 wheelers.

But 1D50 wasn't the return of 1S81 which was the 2050 Carlisle-Perth Travelling Post Office (TPO). This went forward as 1A03 0105 Perth-Aberdeen and returned as 1C89 1547 Aberdeen-Carstairs, which was an advertised passenger train only between Dundee and Perth. At Carstairs 1C89 connected into 1M44 Glasgow-Euston TPO.

Mail trains have a lot of history so the history might help a bit here too. 1S81 was actually the remnant of the old 1S81 1330 Euston-Perth that ran until electrification over Shap and Beattock, though I don't know if the TPO went all the way or was only attached at Carlisle. This had a balancing 1M26 0900 Perth-Euston, so 1D50 was quite near to being a remnant of that.

Some captions to pictures on flickr suggest that the vans in 1D50 were mostly empty news vans and went forward ecs to Red Bank. One is of the train at Motherwell hauled by a class 81 electric, so presumably there was a loco change n Mossend Yard. But I'm not aware of there being a Manchester Victoria-Perth news, was it a portion off the Manchester Victoria-Glasgow news?

 

[Gloster]

Was this a (semi-)regular working or one just seen on one occasion?
Were the wagons actually marked with the TOPS code VEA or just general four-wheeled vans to a similar design?

 

[Cheshire Scot]

In 1980 and 1981 the train you describe briefly ran as an advertised passenger train 1D50 1014 Perth-Motherwell. I never travelled on 1D50 but I have heard mythical tales of single type 2s staggering up Gleneagles and Cumbernauld banks hauling 2 coaches and lots of vans. These were non passenger carrying coaching stock (NPCCS) not freight vans, but in the 1970s might have included some 4 wheelers.

I think it likely 1D50 would be formed of vacuum braked stock with which air braked VEAs would be incompatible. i am more inclined to think NPCCS the more likely vans and quite possibly 4 wheeled among them.

 

[6Gman]

I travelled on the 1014 Perth-Motherwell early 1980s. It was - essentially - returning newspaper vans to Manchester (it went forward from Motherwell as a non-passenger train to Red Bank, Manchester if I recall correctly). If I could find my old notebook I might be able to identify a date/ loco. I do recall we changed locos at Mossend (diesel to electric). And, yes, it was a couple of passenger coaches and plenty of NPCCS. In the 1970s it might still have included some vanfits, but not VEAs!

 

[Taunton]

I travelled on the 1014 Perth-Motherwell early 1980s. It was - essentially - returning newspaper vans to Manchester (it went forward from Motherwell as a non-passenger train to Red Bank, Manchester if I recall correctly). If I could find my old notebook I might be able to identify a date/ loco. I do recall we changed locos at Mossend (diesel to electric). And, yes, it was a couple of passenger coaches and plenty of NPCCS. In the 1970s it might still have included some vanfits, but not VEAs!

That would have been the right time for the vans to return, as they had to be away from Manchester Victoria quite early, with the first editions, to get to Aberdeen for breakfast time.

In conjunction with the parallel current thread on newspaper trains, national papers were traditionally printed in both London and Manchester, with an extremely pioneering telephone line data link between the two for photographs etc. In Scotland, there was a continuing tradition of morning newspaper titles from the major cities, with their own printing plants, the Glasgow Herald, or The Scotsman from Edinburgh, but papers like the Daily Telegraph or Times were still distributed from Manchester and raced up the WCML.

Red Bank was the yard east of Manchester Victoria where these trains were assembled. There was a huge ECS return train to there from the North East, starting at Newcastle, I think two outwards trains coupled together, whose return was one of the last substantial and double-headed steam workings ever, with 15 or so bogie vans, from York it was two Black 5s, or even one a Jubilee, and featured in magazines of the end-of-steam era most months, with many photos as it took the L&Y route through West Yorkshire. It think it continued afterwards with two Class 40s in multiple.

 

[Gloster]

It does strike me that there are two possibilities. If the train was not a regular service and the vans really were TOPS code VEA (refurbished Vanwides), then it might be some form of military special, as the VEA were particularly used for military traffic. Alternatively, if they were just wooden vans, then they are likely to have been former Southern PMV and CCT tacked on to a regular parcels/empty van working.

 

[Sultan1056]

I travelled on the 1014 Perth-Motherwell early 1980s. It was - essentially - returning newspaper vans to Manchester (it went forward from Motherwell as a non-passenger train to Red Bank, Manchester if I recall correctly). If I could find my old notebook I might be able to identify a date/ loco. I do recall we changed locos at Mossend (diesel to electric). And, yes, it was a couple of passenger coaches and plenty of NPCCS. In the 1970s it might still have included some vanfits, but not VEAs!

I also travelled on the train in 1980. My first journey on a Saturday in September was hauled by 25228 with only two passenger coaches. I subsequently travelled on the service on a weekday in October; this time hauled 47472 with two passenger coaches and a further mixture of 16 parcel/newspaper vehicles.
Another similar train of interest was the 1712 Aberdeen-Stonehaven; again two passenger vehicles and a raft of parcel vehicles. I’m not sure where the train was eventually destined, probably Perth.

 

[cadder toad]

I have a photo of 1D50 approaching Motherwell in 1981. 11 bogie vehicles hauled by a Class 85. Vehicles 2 and 3 are passenger coaches. Can't see the first vehicle. The rest are all bogie vans.

What was train 1M08? I have a picture of it in 1981 passing Glenboig. 4 coaches with a 26 at the front.

 

[Harpo]

Is it possible that the vans in question were SPVs, the four wheel former fish wagons?

 

[Magdalia]

What was train 1M08? I have a picture of it in 1981 passing Glenboig. 4 coaches with a 26 at the front.

1M08 was summer Saturdays 1100 Inverness-Carlisle. It was a relief for the up Clansman and seems to be the balancing working of 1S82 0054 Carlisle-Inverness.

1S82 was a portion of 1S84 summer Fridays 2045 Euston-Stranraer, but I can't find a balancing working for 1S84 out of Stranraer.

 

[6Gman]

Is it possible that the vans in question were SPVs, the four wheel former fish wagons?

That's a possibility though around that time they seemed to be largely used out of Spekeland Road (Liverpool) on the Readers Digest flow.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Is it possible that the vans in question were SPVs, the four wheel former fish wagons?

Or CCTs or GUVs or Siphon Gs?

 

[cadder toad]

The OP hasn't returned to the thread but I wonder what is meant by VEA vans. To me a VEA van would be a 12T short wheel base van painted red and grey, as its air braked. Its possible that someone might describe a 12T vacuum brake van bauxite coloured and vacuum braked as a VEA for shorthand, other than the colour they would look very similar. I think VEAs were converted from vacuum braked vans.

It wouldn't be unusual to see vacuum braked 12T vans (ie goods wagons) on a parcels train or added to a passenger train.

Incidentally I recall seeing the Aberdeen - Stonehaven evening peak hour working in 1978, a train referred to above. Two coaches with a Class 26 but no parcels vans.

 

[Gloster]

The OP hasn't returned to the thread but I wonder what is meant by VEA vans. To me a VEA van would be a 12T short wheel base van painted red and grey, as its air braked. Its possible that someone might describe a 12T vacuum brake van bauxite coloured and vacuum braked as a VEA for shorthand, other than the colour they would look very similar. I think VEAs were converted from vacuum braked vans.

It wouldn't be unusual to see vacuum braked 12T vans (ie goods wagons) on a parcels train or added to a passenger train.

Incidentally I recall seeing the Aberdeen - Stonehaven evening peak hour working in 1978, a train referred to above. Two coaches with a Class 26 but no parcels vans.

The VEA were converted Vanwides: 12 ton, short wheelbase vans with two sliding doors on each side: 1994 were built with vacuum-brakes and they became VWV under TOPS (with one or two variations), but from 1977 many were converted to air-brakes and became VEA. The earliest conversions were in the standard ‘brown’ livery, only later did they gain red and grey.

 

[Dunblane80]

I think that I can get part of the way to the answer here, but the full answer will need either someone Scottish with a long memory or someone who has the relevant carriage working notices.

In 1980 and 1981 the train you describe briefly ran as an advertised passenger train 1D50 1014 Perth-Motherwell. I never travelled on 1D50 but I have heard mythical tales of single type 2s staggering up Gleneagles and Cumbernauld banks hauling 2 coaches and lots of vans. These were non passenger carrying coaching stock (NPCCS) not freight vans, but in the 1970s might have included some 4 wheelers.

But 1D50 wasn't the return of 1S81 which was the 2050 Carlisle-Perth Travelling Post Office (TPO). This went forward as 1A03 0105 Perth-Aberdeen and returned as 1C89 1547 Aberdeen-Carstairs, which was an advertised passenger train only between Dundee and Perth. At Carstairs 1C89 connected into 1M44 Glasgow-Euston TPO.

Mail trains have a lot of history so the history might help a bit here too. 1S81 was actually the remnant of the old 1S81 1330 Euston-Perth that ran until electrification over Shap and Beattock, though I don't know if the TPO went all the way or was only attached at Carlisle. This had a balancing 1M26 0900 Perth-Euston, so 1D50 was quite near to being a remnant of that.

Some captions to pictures on flickr suggest that the vans in 1D50 were mostly empty news vans and went forward ecs to Red Bank. One is of the train at Motherwell hauled by a class 81 electric, so presumably there was a loco change n Mossend Yard. But I'm not aware of there being a Manchester Victoria-Perth news, was it a portion off the Manchester Victoria-Glasgow news?

So helpful. And interesting. This timing would be about right going through Dunblane around 10:50am. Interesting as I vividly remember people getting on which places it as 1980/81. Thank you

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 29 Aug 2025 ==

Is it possible that the vans in question were SPVs, the four wheel former fish wagons?

They could well have been but my memory is of them being bauxite in colour. I confess I would have been around ten years old so colours might be more accurate than whether they were VEAs or fish vans. Fascinating thread guys. Thank you.

The OP hasn't returned to the thread but I wonder what is meant by VEA vans. To me a VEA van would be a 12T short wheel base van painted red and grey, as its air braked. Its possible that someone might describe a 12T vacuum brake van bauxite coloured and vacuum braked as a VEA for shorthand, other than the colour they would look very similar. I think VEAs were converted from vacuum braked vans.

It wouldn't be unusual to see vacuum braked 12T vans (ie goods wagons) on a parcels train or added to a passenger train.

Incidentally I recall seeing the Aberdeen - Stonehaven evening peak hour working in 1978, a train referred to above. Two coaches with a Class 26 but no parcels vans.

Sorry. Yes 12t vans. Would that still be the case in 1980?

 

[Cheshire Scot]

They could well have been but my memory is of them being bauxite in colour. I confess I would have been around ten years old so colours might be more accurate than whether they were VEAs or fish vans. Fascinating thread guys. Thank you.

Which probably rules out VEAs as these were in red/grey livery probably from the date of conversion. Perhaps VVV or similar (vacuum braked 12 ton van).

 

[Gloster]

Which probably rules out VEAs as these were in red/grey livery probably from the date of conversion. Perhaps VVV or similar (vacuum braked 12 ton van).

The first fifty VEA were converted in April to November 1978 and were turned out in ‘maroon’ livery. The remaining five hundred were converted 1981 to 1983 and appeared in red and grey.

Source: Speedlink, volume 2, Larkin, Crecy, 2024.

 

[Cheshire Scot]

The first fifty VEA were converted in April to November 1978 and were turned out in ‘maroon’ livery. The remaining five hundred were converted 1981 to 1983 and appeared in red and grey.

Source: Speedlink, volume 2, Larkin, Crecy, 2024.

thank you.