Rail Staff Knowledge of Station Locations

[WestCoast]

What do rail staff generally do when they are not sure about a station's location on a ticket, in terms of validity on that service?

A worked example - A Cark & Cartmel to Parson Street Anytime Return. I bet a fair few rail staff (guards, RPIs or contracted inspectors) wouldn't be too sure where one or both of those stations were in Britain, and say the ticket gave no clue about a route, just stating "Any Permitted".

Would it just be a case of asking the passenger or is there another (quick) procedure?

 

[RJ]

What do rail staff generally do when they are not sure about a station's location on a ticket, in terms of validity on that service?

A worked example - A Cark & Cartmel to Parson Street Anytime Return. I bet a fair few rail staff (guards, RPIs or contracted inspectors) wouldn't be too sure where one or both of those stations were in Britain, and say the ticket gave no clue about a route, just stating "Any Permitted".

Would it just be a case of asking the passenger or is there another (quick) procedure?

There's a journey planner on Avantix which gives a general idea of where each station might be.

 

[Mike395]

Unless they have knowledge of the origin/destination and the Routing Guide to a certain extent - or can use Avantix to check the locations (I wouldnt expect a guard to consult the RG mid journey!) - I think usually they'd take a passenger's word for it, if the journey sounds reasonable. For example, I wouldnt expect a Southeastern guard to accept the ticket, as 99% of customers travelling with them would have a station on that network - which I would expect them to know - as either their origin or destination (or the Southern Marshlink line)

 

[142094]

Probably most stations in Wales or the north of Scotland will not be known about. I'm sure I've read on these fair forums that people in the past have bought cheap tickets between two stations that not many people have heard of and tried to get a longer journey in.

 

[RJ]

Probably most stations in Wales or the north of Scotland will not be known about. I'm sure I've read on these fair forums that people in the past have bought cheap tickets between two stations that not many people have heard of and tried to get a longer journey in.

Depends on how keen eyed/lazy the inspector is. You might get away with it, or you might be reported for prosecution. Doubt a criminal record is worth the risk for the sake of a few pounds.

 

[142094]

Depends on how keen eyed/lazy the inspector is. You might get away with it, or you might be reported for prosecution. Doubt a criminal record is worth the risk for the sake of a few pounds.

If there is a way of saving money there'll always be someone to take advantage.

 

[yorkie]

What do rail staff generally do when they are not sure about a station's location on a ticket, in terms of validity on that service?

That's an impossible question to answer, because there isn't one (unless someone carries out a survey and defines 'generally').

They may ask where it is. They may look it up. They may say "I've never heard of that" (and perhaps laugh!). Anything is possible. I had an RPI once say "those are two places I've never heard of!" he laughed and walked on. On the same ticket another member reported being asked "I know where <origin> is, where is <destination>?" the answer was "the other side of York" to which the answer was "good luck with that then!" (referring to using the ticket on subsequent trains; that guard accepted it).

There's no way I can generalise. Much of the time you won't know whether they've heard of the place or not.

If it has a funny name they are more likely to laugh, e.g. "Hag Fold? Where's that?!"

 

[RJ]

Most tickets I came across were to principle stations funnily enough. Annan, Silverdale and Nelson were the only ever places I had seen tickets to that I'd never heard of, one of those was from a warrant anyway.

I have a feeling that one cause may be that many people are unfamiliar with the concept of a through ticket - on numerous occasions I had people cautiously ask for a split to their destination, such as a single from London to Birmingham, then asking "Can I buy a single from Birmingham to Chester Road from here?"

 

[WestCoast]

That's an impossible question to answer, because there isn't one (unless someone carries out a survey and defines 'generally').

I just wondered if TOCs perhaps gave guidance on the issue to staff. However, it seems they don't.

I had an RPI once say "those are two places I've never heard of!" he laughed and walked on. On the same ticket another member reported being asked "I know where <origin> is, where is <destination>?" the answer was "the other side of York" to which the answer was "good luck with that then!" (referring to using the ticket on subsequent trains; that guard accepted it).

I am guessing your station was somewhere like Poppleton, which is understandable.

I have a feeling that one cause may be that many people are unfamiliar with the concept of a through ticket - on numerous occasions I had people cautiously ask for a split to their destination, such as a single from London to Birmingham, then asking "Can I buy a single from Birmingham to Chester Road from here?"

That's an interesting point! You could never buy through tickets on BR "Paytrains" as was discussed on another thread.

 

[150222]

my local station is todmorden but on nearly every long distance service i have been on the guard did not appear to have heard of it except on an FTPE service from MBR to MIA who asked if i was changing at leeds. I once possesed a todmorden to canley ticket. the virgin guard was stumped.

 

[Solent&Wessex]

Most tickets I came across were to principle stations funnily enough. Annan, Silverdale and Nelson were the only ever places I had seen tickets to that I'd never heard of, one of those was from a warrant anyway.

I have a feeling that one cause may be that many people are unfamiliar with the concept of a through ticket - on numerous occasions I had people cautiously ask for a split to their destination, such as a single from London to Birmingham, then asking "Can I buy a single from Birmingham to Chester Road from here?"

I'm sure this is true. Many people I don't think realise that you can get tickets to cover your complete journey. Often people ask to buy tickets from Leeds to York or Manchester. When I ask "how did you get through the ticket gates?", I normally get the response "Oh, I've come from [insert name of local station somewhere near Leeds]" and then promptly show me a return or single from that local station to Leeds. I often try and explain they could buy a through ticket cheaper than 2 separate ones, but it doesn't always sink in. Of course, there are those that only buy a bit of a journey at a time hoping they'll get away with not being charged on the next bit!

 

[rail-britain]

As above, by the book I was supposed to get the Routing Guide or NFM and check
However, a quick glance at the fare paid would determine if the wool was being pulled based on the section of the trains journey I was covering
Thankfully to/from Scotland I knew the name of most of the stations that it was possible to get tickets for

However I did once get caught out with Rogart (doesn't look very Scottish) to Kennet
After checking I then made sure the train called at Peterborough and asked where the passenger was travelling to and confirmed they were changing at Peterborough

 

[bnm]

Absolutely no help to the OP whatsoever, but can I just state that I know where Parson Street is!

 

[150222]

Absolutely no help to the OP whatsoever, but can I just state that I know where Parson Street is!

so do i and cark and cartmel

 

[Birdbrain]

If i'm out and about on the mainland with a through advance ticket from Shanklin or Brading the guards often ask where they are!

 

[150222]

If i'm out and about on the mainland with a through advance ticket from Shanklin or Brading the guards often ask where they are!

and what is their facial expresion when you tell them?

 

[185]

As tonights winner of guess the station (again), I'm one you'll rarely manage to confuse

 

[Matt Taylor]

Same here, although I probably need to get out and about a bit more as my knowledge is not what it once was. But having worked worked trains throughout South Wales, Wessex, Manchester and SW London over the last 17 years my knowledge is above average I hope.

 

[cuccir]

I suppose it must be fairly rare for staff to come up with tickets where they don't know one of the two stations. For that to arise you'd have to be travelling between two fairly obscure/geographically unidentifiable places, and be on a line which is not near these.

Is there a guideline given out by any TOCs for the expected level of knowledge?

As a passenger I'd expect a member of staff to be aware of:

* all the stations on the lines served by the trains that they work on(!), or by trains that pass through the station at which they are based;

* the vast majority of stations on lines which directly connect to their service (I might let CrossCountry staff off a little more here!) or which connect to trains which pass through their station

* the vast majority of 'local' stations to where staff are based

* all major interchange stations nationally

Obviously, you'd expect guards and ticket staff to have significantly more knowledge than, say, gate line assistants or on-board catering staff

 

[bb21]

* the vast majority of stations on lines which directly connect to their service (I might let CrossCountry staff off a little more here!) or which connect to trains which pass through their station

I don't think that XC guards work the whole distance of many (long) advertised journeys. They are based at a certain place and longer through journeys always see change of guards, sometimes a few times, along the line.

A few years back (not sure if it is still the case), a Bournemouth - Manchester trip will see a change of crew at both Basingstoke and Birmingham.

 

[gnolife]

A couple of months back, I was doing Bredbury to Filton Abbey Wood (going on the direct XC from Manchester), the conductor on the Northern had never heard of Filton Abbey Wood, the conductor on the XC (between Picc and Birmingham) didn't recognize Bredbury or Filton Abbey Wood, that really did startle me, considering the fact that he had announced that the train was stopping there three times by the time he did the ticket inspection, and the conductor from Birmingham also didn't recognize Bredbury!

 

[exile]

Actually to know if a fare is valid you need
- the routeing guide
- the NFM
- the national timetable (to work out the shortest route as that's one of the 1st things the RG asks you to do - try working out the shortest route from Elgin to Hastings! - and does the "shortest route" including walking between stations?)

 

[Lampshade]

If may get interesting if you have two 'generic' sounding stations e.g. Hapton to Daisy Hill. Now a Northern conductor would know but theoretically you could show up anywhere.

 

[Clip]

What do rail staff generally do when they are not sure about a station's location on a ticket, in terms of validity on that service?

A worked example - A Cark & Cartmel to Parson Street Anytime Return. I bet a fair few rail staff (guards, RPIs or contracted inspectors) wouldn't be too sure where one or both of those stations were in Britain, and say the ticket gave no clue about a route, just stating "Any Permitted".

Would it just be a case of asking the passenger or is there another (quick) procedure?

In all fairness to the guards on the services involved - they would only be concerned about it being valid on their stretch of line and would probably(as has been said) check it up on their Avantix.

They only need to know that the station you have come from - say Cark & Cartmel - to be sure that on the TPE you are fine. The others will just work it out for themselves i should imagine that its a long distance and let you pass.

Its not a requirement to know every station in the land.

 

[Keith Jarrett]

You do not need wildly out of area tickets to confuse as I will relate ...
I was on a southbound FCC service a year or so ago. RPI comes through train doing his stuff but then takes exception with the guy sitting opposite me - he had a single from Clapton to Streatham. Conversation went something like this
RPI - You're off route, that's a penalty fare please!
Guy - What route should I have taken?
RPI - There are direct trains from Clapham to Streatham.
Guy - What? I thought all the trains from Clapton finished at Liverpool Street.
Me (to RPI) - Do you know where Clapton is?
RPI - Yes, 1st stop after Victoria!
Me - Sorry, I will think that you will find Clapton is in NE London. You are thinking of Clapham Junction. And, for reference, Clapham is a small station in North Yorkshire.
RPI - Don't be cheeky. I know how to do my job.
Guy - So is my ticket OK or not?
RPI - I will be watching you [And storms off in a huff]
Guy to me, once RPI was out of earshot - Thanks. That's not the first time I've been accused of travelling from Clapham.

So which of the RPI's statements were correct? None by my reckoning. (For information, the guy's route from Clapton was via Liverpool Street & Farringdon).

 

[MikeWh]

Me (to RPI) - Do you know where Clapton is?
RPI - Yes, 1st stop after Victoria!

Brilliant! Couldn't even get the description right if it had been Clapham Junction, or has someone nuked Battersea Park?

 

[Fred26]

You do not need wildly out of area tickets to confuse as I will relate ...
I was on a southbound FCC service a year or so ago. RPI comes through train doing his stuff but then takes exception with the guy sitting opposite me - he had a single from Clapton to Streatham. Conversation went something like this
RPI - You're off route, that's a penalty fare please!
Guy - What route should I have taken?
RPI - There are direct trains from Clapham to Streatham.
Guy - What? I thought all the trains from Clapton finished at Liverpool Street.
Me (to RPI) - Do you know where Clapton is?
RPI - Yes, 1st stop after Victoria!
Me - Sorry, I will think that you will find Clapton is in NE London. You are thinking of Clapham Junction. And, for reference, Clapham is a small station in North Yorkshire.
RPI - Don't be cheeky. I know how to do my job.
Guy - So is my ticket OK or not?
RPI - I will be watching you [And storms off in a huff]
Guy to me, once RPI was out of earshot - Thanks. That's not the first time I've been accused of travelling from Clapham.

So which of the RPI's statements were correct? None by my reckoning. (For information, the guy's route from Clapton was via Liverpool Street & Farringdon).

The geography of some staff is utterly appalling. I worked in the ticket office for a while and took a huge interest (I still do), and if I came across a place that I hadn't heard of, or didn't know how to get there, I'd look up the route planner, not merely sell the ticket. Doing that wasn't just for the passengers' benefit, but for my own, too.

 

[RJ]

You do not need wildly out of area tickets to confuse as I will relate ...
I was on a southbound FCC service a year or so ago. RPI comes through train doing his stuff but then takes exception with the guy sitting opposite me - he had a single from Clapton to Streatham. Conversation went something like this
RPI - You're off route, that's a penalty fare please!
Guy - What route should I have taken?
RPI - There are direct trains from Clapham to Streatham.
Guy - What? I thought all the trains from Clapton finished at Liverpool Street.
Me (to RPI) - Do you know where Clapton is?
RPI - Yes, 1st stop after Victoria!
Me - Sorry, I will think that you will find Clapton is in NE London. You are thinking of Clapham Junction. And, for reference, Clapham is a small station in North Yorkshire.
RPI - Don't be cheeky. I know how to do my job.
Guy - So is my ticket OK or not?
RPI - I will be watching you [And storms off in a huff]
Guy to me, once RPI was out of earshot - Thanks. That's not the first time I've been accused of travelling from Clapham.

So which of the RPI's statements were correct? None by my reckoning. (For information, the guy's route from Clapton was via Liverpool Street & Farringdon).

If you must voluntarily involve yourself in such a situation, why not try being a bit diplomatic? RPIs are human and can make mistakes, clearly he had a genuine misunderstanding over what the ticket said. Make up some story like "I live there and I people often confuse the two" then laugh it off. That way, you won't prompt the RPI into the "don't tell me how to do my job" frame of mind.
There are ways of getting your point across assertively, then there's just being plain rude. Having a wealth of knowledge is respectable - being a knowitall just irritates people unnecessarily.

 

[tony_mac]

There are ways of getting your point across assertively, then there's just being plain rude.

Yes, you're quite right, but I don't take it for granted that the conversation was 100% correctly reproduced.

 

[WelshBluebird]

If you must voluntarily involve yourself in such a situation, why not try being a bit diplomatic? RPIs are human and can make mistakes, clearly he had a genuine misunderstanding over what the ticket said. Make up some story like "I live there and I people often confuse the two" then laugh it off. That way, you won't prompt the RPI into the "don't tell me how to do my job" frame of mind.
There are ways of getting your point across assertively, then there's just being plain rude. Having a wealth of knowledge is respectable - being a knowitall just irritates people unnecessarily.

But surely that goes both ways.
The RPI launched straight in with saying the passenger was wrong and he would have to pay extra. Had the RPI also done what you suggest, then the conversation probably would have been of a lighter tone. The RPI could have just as easily made a similar joke if he had wanted to keep it friendly.
If I was accused of fare evasion totally out of the blue, and with no good grounds for it, I think I would be a little annoyed too.
I accept people make mistakes, but if you do, and it affects someone else (as in this case), then own up to it being your mistake. Don't try to shift the blame onto the other person (as he was doing by saying he would be "watching" the guy).