How Viable are Preserved Railways?

[xotGD]

And I would add to your list - has preserved the complete branch line from junction to terminus. So it is both authentic and "satisfying" as a heritage experience, and the society does not have the temptation to waste money on ambitious extensions to placate a vocifereous enthusiast minority.

Hold on. I thought we were extending to Hehden Bridge?

 

[Trainlog]

I would say the first instance to look at for how viable the ongoing existence of a heritage railway is, is to look at the state of the permanent way and how much risk there is to that from an operational stand point.

I would say the KWVR is very much a goldilocks railway:

Rail connected
Station connected to mainline
Near to population centre
Good array of motive power
Some interest in the running of trains (a big hill to blast up)
A tourist draw in the middle of the line
Well maintained and appear to be on top of infrastructure (see bridge replacement)
Events that can draw in people who are not rail buffs (diesel and ale) and the railway children show
A line that is a reasonable length to be entertaining without being too long
I cant comment on the current fares, however when i was a student several of my friends used it for a day out to Haworth.

Oh and another thing, I have seen advertising for the KWVR, mostly around the Northern network.

By the sounds of things, you're probably right on that one. It definitely helps that they are trying to get a more neutral audience to come and visit the line through advertising on the Northern network.

And for the enthusiasts a good gradient, a variety of rolling stock types, and many rare and big locomotives present on the line.

Only thing it sounds like they are missing is the Great Central railways 'Footplate friendly' policy at Leicester North and that's about it for any nitpicking.

 

[Belperpete]

And for the enthusiasts a good gradient, a variety of rolling stock types, and many rare and big locomotives present on the line.

Personally, I find the use of big tender locomotives on what were small branch lines totally unrealistic. I remember the West Somerset in the dog days of BR steam when the services were hauled by pannier tanks, so I was most disappointed on my visit to the preserved line to find everything being hauled by hulking great tender locos as though everything was a through service from Paddington. Not only does a tender loco pulling a short rake of coaches look totally unrealistic, but also the big locos are pulling nothing like the load they were intended to pull, and consequently sounding nothing like a loco working hard.

Again, on my recent visit to the Bluebell, almost everything seemed to be tender locos. I hope the management noticed just how popular Fenchurch seemed to be with the youngsters, compared to the boring black hulks. When I visited as a lad, Bluebell and Stepney used to be the stars of the show, but now they have been sidelined in favour of the big willy-wavers.

I was very pleased on my recent visit to the Llangollen to find that we were being pulled by a pannier tank that sounded like it was earning its keep, rather than some incongruously large tender loco sounding like it was taking a boring stroll round the park.

 

[D Mylchreest]

Personally, I find the use of big tender locomotives on what were small branch lines totally unrealistic. I remember the West Somerset in the dog days of BR steam when the services were hauled by pannier tanks, so I was most disappointed on my visit to the preserved line to find everything being hauled by hulking great tender locos as though everything was a through service from Paddington. Not only does a tender loco pulling a short rake of coaches look totally unrealistic, but also the big locos are pulling nothing like the load they were intended to pull, and consequently sounding nothing like a loco working hard.

Again, on my recent visit to the Bluebell, almost everything seemed to be tender locos. I hope the management noticed just how popular Fenchurch seemed to be with the youngsters, compared to the boring black hulks. When I visited as a lad, Bluebell and Stepney used to be the stars of the show, but now they have been sidelined in favour of the big willy-wavers.

I was very pleased on my recent visit to the Llangollen to find that we were being pulled by a pannier tank that sounded like it was earning its keep, rather than some incongruously large tender loco sounding like it was taking a boring stroll round the park.

Agree with this.
My hypothetical ideal is a line about 6-7 miles long, includes a gradient, at least one intermediate station and a turntable at both ends. I don't know of any line that does that but the KWVR gets close.

 

[YorkshireBear]

Personally, I find the use of big tender locomotives on what were small branch lines totally unrealistic. I remember the West Somerset in the dog days of BR steam when the services were hauled by pannier tanks, so I was most disappointed on my visit to the preserved line to find everything being hauled by hulking great tender locos as though everything was a through service from Paddington. Not only does a tender loco pulling a short rake of coaches look totally unrealistic, but also the big locos are pulling nothing like the load they were intended to pull, and consequently sounding nothing like a loco working hard.

Again, on my recent visit to the Bluebell, almost everything seemed to be tender locos. I hope the management noticed just how popular Fenchurch seemed to be with the youngsters, compared to the boring black hulks. When I visited as a lad, Bluebell and Stepney used to be the stars of the show, but now they have been sidelined in favour of the big willy-wavers.

I was very pleased on my recent visit to the Llangollen to find that we were being pulled by a pannier tank that sounded like it was earning its keep, rather than some incongruously large tender loco sounding like it was taking a boring stroll round the park.

KWVR in winter have often run three coach trains with the Ivatt which I always find quite charming. Do agree on big engines, for some lines it's the length of trains in summer that necessitates it.

 

[duffield]

At least at the GCR, the big locos look appropriate (to me, anyhow) even if they don't get to properly stretch their legs in passenger service.

I'd also say they don't look out of place at Bury Bolton Street on the ELR, since that has a "big station" feel to it, with trains sometimes departing for Heywood and Rawtenstall - effectively two separate lines - simultaneously.

But in general, while I admire the larger locos, I do find the small locos more appealing.

 

[158760]

Personally, I find the use of big tender locomotives on what were small branch lines totally unrealistic. I remember the West Somerset in the dog days of BR steam when the services were hauled by pannier tanks, so I was most disappointed on my visit to the preserved line to find everything being hauled by hulking great tender locos as though everything was a through service from Paddington. Not only does a tender loco pulling a short rake of coaches look totally unrealistic, but also the big locos are pulling nothing like the load they were intended to pull, and consequently sounding nothing like a loco working hard.

Again, on my recent visit to the Bluebell, almost everything seemed to be tender locos. I hope the management noticed just how popular Fenchurch seemed to be with the youngsters, compared to the boring black hulks. When I visited as a lad, Bluebell and Stepney used to be the stars of the show, but now they have been sidelined in favour of the big willy-wavers.

I was very pleased on my recent visit to the Llangollen to find that we were being pulled by a pannier tank that sounded like it was earning its keep, rather than some incongruously large tender loco sounding like it was taking a boring stroll round the park.

The issue is with running smaller engines is they tend to set more fires and they can’t haul as much. In the case of Fenchurch (and Stepney) the weight limit to East Grinstead is 85 tons tare, and even the B Set at this time of year is easily double that. The Ps are even lower than that, at 70 tons tare. You then have a Standard 4 Tank, which is 300 tons tare. You can see why smaller engines aren’t prioritised.

In the off season when the weather is not so warm, an engine like Fenchurch is perfect for a short and light B Set, but from about late March until mid October that would put a serious strain on capacity. The BR engines are also easier to run and maintain. It’s a difficult balance between nice to have, popular and practical.

Tank engines like the E4, the North London Tank, the H, the Adams Radial and (when it’s finished) the Standard 2 Tank are the perfect size for a B Set tank engine, but unfortunately they are all either out of traffic or under overhaul.

However, I do agree that the wide collection of engines the Bluebell has should be highlighted, rather than focusing on the 50s and 60s. Out of our 6 currently operational steam engines, 4 of them are in BR livery, although they have all been built or rebuilt post 1948. A far cry from the days when there were 14 engines in traffic, with a much greater variety of motive power.

Just quickly about Stepney and Bluebell - Bluebell is currently undergoing a rather costly overhaul as there were more issues than previously thought, and Stepney will need new frames at the least - the engine will need a very large sum of money spent, which the railway does not currently have. Perhaps for Bluebell 100 .

 

[Yorkshire09876]

Just quickly about Stepney and Bluebell - Bluebell is currently undergoing a rather costly overhaul as there were more issues than previously thought, and Stepney will need new frames at the least - the engine will need a very large sum of money spent, which the railway does not currently have. Perhaps for Bluebell 100 .

If it has new frames, won't that effectively make it a different loco?

 

[158760]

If it has new frames, won't that effectively make it a different loco?

Which is one of the ongoing arguments…

I think it should be done as Stepney is probably the most popular engine on the line - would cost a lot to overhaul but would bring in a lot of money from people travelling behind it.

 

[xotGD]

To my untrained eyes, a tender loco is a 'proper' steam loco, and tank engines just aren't the same. As for a Standard 4 tank, they are just plain ugly.

 

[andyjhatton]

If it has new frames, won't that effectively make it a different loco?

Are you telling me that Trigger didn't have the same broom all those years?

On a more serious note, other than a few rare examples (such as MH434) there is effectively nothing original in many WWII era aircraft. Many are dataplate restorations.
Rail enthusiasts are lucky that many operational locomotives have far more originallity than these.

 

[Krokodil]

Personally, I find the use of big tender locomotives on what were small branch lines totally unrealistic. I remember the West Somerset in the dog days of BR steam when the services were hauled by pannier tanks, so I was most disappointed on my visit to the preserved line to find everything being hauled by hulking great tender locos as though everything was a through service from Paddington. Not only does a tender loco pulling a short rake of coaches look totally unrealistic, but also the big locos are pulling nothing like the load they were intended to pull, and consequently sounding nothing like a loco working hard.

I haven't been since before the pandemic but back then they certainly had long trains to haul behind whatever 2-8-0s were in service at the time. I even had the pleasure of putting my bike on a combined service train and Quantock Belle and asking to be dropped off at the halt - no small task to get the guards van on the platform. It didn't fit any loops of course.

The PDSR provides plenty of noise with its heavy tank engines on long trains up steep grades.

Which is one of the ongoing arguments…

I think it should be done as Stepney is probably the most popular engine on the line - would cost a lot to overhaul but would bring in a lot of money from people travelling behind it.

Originality would be important if we were talking of sole survivors, but Boxhill at the NRM will remain original so it needn't be an issue for other Terriers.

 

[Trainlog]

Personally, I find the use of big tender locomotives on what were small branch lines totally unrealistic. I remember the West Somerset in the dog days of BR steam when the services were hauled by pannier tanks, so I was most disappointed on my visit to the preserved line to find everything being hauled by hulking great tender locos as though everything was a through service from Paddington. Not only does a tender loco pulling a short rake of coaches look totally unrealistic, but also the big locos are pulling nothing like the load they were intended to pull, and consequently sounding nothing like a loco working hard.

Again, on my recent visit to the Bluebell, almost everything seemed to be tender locos. I hope the management noticed just how popular Fenchurch seemed to be with the youngsters, compared to the boring black hulks. When I visited as a lad, Bluebell and Stepney used to be the stars of the show, but now they have been sidelined in favour of the big willy-wavers.

I was very pleased on my recent visit to the Llangollen to find that we were being pulled by a pannier tank that sounded like it was earning its keep, rather than some incongruously large tender loco sounding like it was taking a boring stroll round the park.

Its an interesting one. I agree; the smaller tank engine locomotives are great locos when running, especially Pannier tanks, regardless of whether they are numerous 57xx or a sole survivor, like the 16xx.

However, I still really enjoy larger steam locomotives on single-track lines, and I don't think there is anything really wrong or off-putting about it. For example, SR light pacifics went down many single-track branches in their time for the Atlantic coast express and when you really think about it, many larger standard gauge locomotives have had more of their career on the single-track heritage railways than the mainline railway prior to withdrawal.

As for the Bluebell railway, I'm going to be honest, it was, until recently, the only railway that had larger steam locomotives, and it was one of the main reasons I enjoyed that railway. We are not short of tank engine railways in the Southeast, so it was nice to see a S15 or Camelot haul the main train out of Sheffield Park as opposed to the terrier that is commonplace on lines down here.

If a heritage railway can support steam locos of a larger loading gauge, I quite like a balance of steam motive power types as they do on the Severn Valley or the Mid Hants railway. Larger locos for the long train formations, and tank engines to do smaller coach formations.

 

[Krokodil]

Gresley Pacifics certainly belong on the mainline. Having them pootling along at 25 miles an hour on a short branch line makes me think of a caged lion.

 

[Tom B]

Perhaps somebody with more insight into the workings can answer this - but I assume that railways have a '10-15 year' forward plan of which locomotives are likely to be available, based on boiler tickets, and that a 'strategic' decision is taken as to what to overhaul when in order to give an appropriate mix of locos at any one time.

I remember some time ago when the KWVR went down to I think only 1 or 2 operational locomotives (must have been early 00s?) and were hiring in the J27 that normally resides on ?NYMR? to fulfil the service. Which must have been expensive! I assume that was down to a 'crunch' with not enough locomotives coming out before others were taken out of traffic.

 

[158760]

Perhaps somebody with more insight into the workings can answer this - but I assume that railways have a '10-15 year' forward plan of which locomotives are likely to be available, based on boiler tickets, and that a 'strategic' decision is taken as to what to overhaul when in order to give an appropriate mix of locos at any one time.

The Loco Department will have a rough order of out of traffic engines based off usefulness and how much it will cost to overhaul, agreed with the railway as a whole and all the loco owning groups.

Each railway will have their own requirements and aims for numbers of locos in traffic at any one time, the aim being withdrawals are equal to or exceeded by entries into service. You need to get it right - not enough engines and you struggle to run a reliable service, too many engines and you could end up with a shortage in the future and have too many to run at that time.

 

[Krokodil]

And you don't always know how extensive an overhaul is going to be until you strip the loco down.

 

[Yorkshire09876]

Are you telling me that Trigger didn't have the same broom all those years?

On a more serious note, other than a few rare examples (such as MH434) there is effectively nothing original in many WWII era aircraft. Many are dataplate restorations.
Rail enthusiasts are lucky that many operational locomotives have far more originallity than these.

The general view with steam locos is that it's the frames which define the loco - most of the other bits are likely to have been swapped at overhaul while in service. If the frames are replaced, it can be argued that it's now a new loco.

 

[Belperpete]

Some news about the NYMR's troubles:
North Yorkshire Moors Railway to rely more on volunteers as financial challenges revealed

The organisation, which is a not-for-profit charity, has already made job cuts as part of a £400,000 cost savings programme, reduced its running days and axed an annual pass scheme which allowed ticketholders to return for free for 12 months.

Staff numbers have been cut from 119 to 104, while the trust has more than 1,100 registered volunteers.
The trust is due to publish a new strategic plan later this year but its accounts state that success for the current year will include “a transition away from a dependence on paid staff towards greater use of volunteers where this is achievable...

I was staggered to learn that they still have over a hundred paid staff, even after making cuts. This is considerably more than most preserved railways that I am aware of. It would be interesting to compare with the number of staff on lines such as the Paignton and Dartmouth, Bala Lake or Isle of Man, that don't rely on volunteers at all.

The trouble is that the change to using more volunteers is likely to take many years to achieve. Not only do you need to train up a sufficient pool of volunteers, but you need to attract them in the first place. While you have a member of paid staff filling a role, you are unlikely to get a volunteer to take it on. There can often be the feeling that a volunteer with less experience won't do the job as well as the paid staff, so best let the paid staff do it. You also need something else for the paid member of staff to do while the volunteer is temporarily doing the job for a day or two. It can be dispiriting for a volunteer if they get the feeling that they aren't really needed, and are just being humoured.

I was also surprised to learn that the K&WVR has 23 employees. I had always understood it to be a line that was almost exclusively run by volunteers. For such a short line, that seems like a disproportionately high number of employees compared to some other preserved lines that are much longer and run many more trains. Although I agree that it is decidedly modest compared with the NYMR.

 

[Yorkshire09876]

I was also surprised to learn that the K&WVR has 23 employees. I had always understood it to be a line that was almost exclusively run by volunteers. For such a short line, that seems like a disproportionately high number of employees compared to some other preserved lines that are much longer and run many more trains.

Does that include catering? If so, that might account for quite a few part-time staff.

 

[eldomtom2]

It would be interesting to compare with the number of staff on lines such as the Paignton and Dartmouth, Bala Lake or Isle of Man, that don't rely on volunteers at all.

The Bala Lake uses volunteers - are you confusing it with the Vale of Rheidol?

 

[Jan Mayen]

Are there any preserved or heritage lines in Britain which are operated exclusively by paid staff?

 

[A S Leib]

Are there any preserved or heritage lines in Britain which are operated exclusively by paid staff?

I think staff at Dartmouth Steam Railway and Snowdon Mountain Railway are all or almost all paid.

 

[YorkshireBear]

Does that include catering? If so, that might account for quite a few part-time staff.

It does include catering yes, including keeping our cafe open 5 days a week even when trains aren't running. A few key roles in other areas filled by paid staff, but when you strip out catering it's much smaller.

 

[Belperpete]

I think staff at Dartmouth Steam Railway and Snowdon Mountain Railway are all or almost all paid.

And the Llanberis Lake and the Isle of Man Railways.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 26 Aug 2025 ==

Some news about the NYMR's troubles:

North Yorkshire Moors Railway to rely more on volunteers as financial challenges revealed

I was staggered to learn that they still have over a hundred paid staff, even after making cuts. This is considerably more than most preserved railways that I am aware of. It would be interesting to compare with the number of staff on lines such as the Paignton and Dartmouth,

Looking at their accounts, the Dart Valley Railway Ltd (the operators of the Dartmouth Steam Railway) had an average of 65 employees plus 5 directors in 2023. So despite not using volunteers, they apparently ran with less paid staff than the NYMR.

NB: The Dart Valley group (that also includes the bus and riverboat operations as well as the railway) had an average of 110 employees plus the 5 directors. Still less than the NYMR's 119 paid staff.

 

[YorkshireBear]

And the Llanberis Lake and the Isle of Man Railways.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 26 Aug 2025 ==


Looking at their accounts, the Dart Valley Railway Ltd (the operators of the Dartmouth Steam Railway) had an average of 65 employees plus 5 directors in 2023. So despite not using volunteers, they apparently ran with less paid staff than the NYMR.

NB: The Dart Valley group (that also includes the bus and riverboat operations as well as the railway) had an average of 110 employees plus the 5 directors. Still less than the NYMR's 119 paid staff.

They run significantly less trains as well would be my only caveat to that. This season more often than not, one train out. Way less stations to operate etc.

Not saying NYMR should have that many staff but it's not apples and apples which always makes comparisons with other railways different.

 

[Obar123]

Some news about the NYMR's troubles:
North Yorkshire Moors Railway to rely more on volunteers as financial challenges revealed




I was staggered to learn that they still have over a hundred paid staff, even after making cuts. This is considerably more than most preserved railways that I am aware of. It would be interesting to compare with the number of staff on lines such as the Paignton and Dartmouth, Bala Lake or Isle of Man, that don't rely on volunteers at all.

The trouble is that the change to using more volunteers is likely to take many years to achieve. Not only do you need to train up a sufficient pool of volunteers, but you need to attract them in the first place. While you have a member of paid staff filling a role, you are unlikely to get a volunteer to take it on. There can often be the feeling that a volunteer with less experience won't do the job as well as the paid staff, so best let the paid staff do it. You also need something else for the paid member of staff to do while the volunteer is temporarily doing the job for a day or two. It can be dispiriting for a volunteer if they get the feeling that they aren't really needed, and are just being humoured.

Not sure where they got those figures from as their Charity Commission report says in 2023 they had 113 staff and in 2024 they 87. So either they have lied to the charity commission or Yorkshire Post are making the numbers up!

 

[renegademaster]

Not sure where they got those figures from as their Charity Commission report says in 2023 they had 113 staff and in 2024 they 87. So either they have lied to the charity commission or Yorkshire Post are making the numbers up!

A Reach plc article being poorly researched i highly doubt that

 

[12C]

I think some preserved railways need to add far more to the experience than just a train ride there and back that’s over and done with in a couple of hours max, if they want to be viable long term. A lot of families are struggling financially and looking for value for money in a day out more than ever. There is the potential for even smaller lines to be fantastic living museums, explaining the history of railways, travel and industry but apart from sometimes a token small museum very few seem to do this effectively.

It’s a shame to see so many lines neglecting their intermediate stations. These could be a great opportunity to break a journey and make them into an attraction of their own. For example have each station set in a different era with appropriate signage, e.g. Victorian, pre WW2 grouping, post war 1950s BR then 60s/70s modernisation. Each with plenty of information of their history and artefacts where space allows.

Even on the trains, why not put information posters up explaining the development of the Mk1, or with stickers on tables, even if the dreaded pacer is used make a feature of it and actually explain why it was developed to a budget, what it replaced etc, and suddenly it might be more interesting to non enthusiasts than just bouncing slowly along a fairly dull route on something they used to go to work on.

As others have said add in things like children’s playgrounds and themed cafes where possible and you can turn a 90 minute train ride into a full day out, plus added value from attracting school trips if it provides educational value.

 

[eldomtom2]

It’s a shame to see so many lines neglecting their intermediate stations. These could be a great opportunity to break a journey and make them into an attraction of their own.

The problem with intermediate stations is that for breaking the journey there to be attractive to most visitors a fairly frequent timetable needs to be run.