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Where does 2F16 1850 Helsby to Ellesmere Port come from?

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duffield

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Looking at RTT, this service seems to materialise on P4 at Helsby from nowhere, no sign of any passenger or ECS working to get it in position. So what's missing?


(The reason I'm asking is that I'd like to work out if it's going to run based on the unit's previous working rather than wait until it leaves (or doesn't leave) Helsby to find out).
 
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ExRes

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Looking at RTT, this service seems to materialise on P4 at Helsby from nowhere, no sign of any passenger or ECS working to get it in position. So what's missing?


(The reason I'm asking is that I'd like to work out if it's going to run based on the unit's previous working rather than wait until it leaves (or doesn't leave) Helsby to find out).

Todays 1832 5F16 Chester to Helsby is shown on RTT as 156464 which then formed 1850 2F16
 

Farigiraf

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Today at least, it started at Newton Heath TMD, then formed a peak-time Stockport to Chester service, then ECS to Helsby, then the train to Ellesmere Port. Similar situation in the mornings too.
 

duffield

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Todays 1832 5F16 Chester to Helsby is shown on RTT as 156464 which then formed 1850 2F16
Right. I missed it because 5F16 showed in RTT as terminating on P2 but 2F16 showed in RTT as leaving from P4.

However, I've just realised all the platforms shown for Helsby are all grey in RTT, not black, so not the *actual* platforms, and now it makes sense!

Thanks.
 

IrishDave

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Right. I missed it because 5F16 showed in RTT as terminating on P2 but 2F16 showed in RTT as leaving from P4.

However, I've just realised all the platforms shown for Helsby are all grey in RTT, not black, so not the *actual* platforms, and now it makes sense!

Thanks.
Local shunts between platforms aren't always timetabled - in areas signalled by modern computer-based signalling centres, they almost always are, but in areas like Helsby with older signalboxes with lever frames they're mostly not. So the shunt from 5F16 on P2 to form 2F16 on P4 simply isn't timetabled and therefore won't show up on RTT.
 

jfollows

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NH 327 diagram, according to the complete Northern diagrams to which a link was previously placed in this forum:
1752905194862.png
Separate entries for MO, TWThO but the workings seem the same.
The diagrams may be out of date now, of course.
 

Llandudno

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NH 327 diagram, according to the complete Northern diagrams to which a link was previously placed in this forum:
View attachment 184357
Separate entries for MO, TWThO but the workings seem the same.
The diagrams may be out of date now, of course.
Not the most efficient use of a unit and crew…!

At least the 0714 Chester to Stockport and 1708 Stockport to Chester should carry half decent loads on school/college days.
 

jfollows

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Not the most efficient use of a unit and crew…!

At least the 0714 Chester to Stockport and 1708 Stockport to Chester should carry half decent loads on school/college days.
It’s probably not the same diagram for the crew, and since it’s a NH diagram it means that any maintenance can be done there during the day.
 

Geeves

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Yes as others have said its four sets of traincrew diagrams but only one unit diagram

In the morning the driver and guard both go down on the ECS from Lime Street, after that the driver takes the unit empty to Chester and eventually works a stopper from Oxford Rd to Liverpool, the guard goes to Victoria and works to Wigan NW via Golborne then goes back to LS

In the evening the LS guard has already worked two Victoria to Chester trains and the LS driver has been to Stalybridge! Exotic
 

30907

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Totally OT, but why not run Chester-Stalybridge and back? Ideal to indicate likely demand for such a route :)
Mind you, it would ruin the party status... :)
 

childwallblues

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Yes as others have said its four sets of traincrew diagrams but only one unit diagram

In the morning the driver and guard both go down on the ECS from Lime Street, after that the driver takes the unit empty to Chester and eventually works a stopper from Oxford Rd to Liverpool, the guard goes to Victoria and works to Wigan NW via Golborne then goes back to LS

In the evening the LS guard has already worked two Victoria to Chester trains and the LS driver has been to Stalybridge! Exotic
Oh the complexity of train crew diagrams!
 

ayubdaud

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Local shunts between platforms aren't always timetabled - in areas signalled by modern computer-based signalling centres, they almost always are, but in areas like Helsby with older signalboxes with lever frames they're mostly not. So the shunt from 5F16 on P2 to form 2F16 on P4 simply isn't timetabled and therefore won't show up on RTT.
It would appear from the latest version of the NW&C Planning Rules (TPR 2026 V4) there is an entry on the planning geography for 'Helsby Signal 12/13' described in the commentary letter as 'new timing point added to remove untimetabled shunt moves at Helsby', so seemingly will be a planned shunt move from May 26 onwards.
 

Old Yard Dog

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Being a bit of a rail enthusiast, I have been trying to use the 1906 Ellesmere Port - Helsby to get from Little Sutton to Chester the long way round for my monthly Camra meeting for some months. But I have always been thwarted. The train has been cancelled more often than not. And when it has run, the connecting Merseyrail train, due into Ellesmere Port at 1900, has been running late. But last night success at last.

Ticketing was a problem. There are no tickets from Little Sutton to Helsby valid via Hooton & Chester. And the any-permitted anytime SDR (with railcard) from LTT to Frodsham at £7.45 shown on brfares.com wasn't available from the LTT TVM & doesn't appear on planners. So I suspect it no longer exists. Ironically the 1906 ELP to Liverpool stops everywhere except Frodsham which has some of the best pubs in Cheshire. So it meant getting three singles but, surprisingly, I was able to pick up a £1.35 advance on the 1937 from HSB to CTR on the TfW app just half an hour or so before it was due to leave.

The ELP to HSB train is usually formed from the stock of the 1708 Stockport - Chester short working. But this extra train is currently cancelled because of the Stockport blockade and a more limited service is running between Altrincham and Chester. Looking at realtimetrains.co.uk, it would appear that the stock (156441) of the 1539 Altrincham - Chester was used last night, travelling ECS from Chester to Helsby after spending almost an hour at Chester in P7a.

Given the line's high cancellation rate (23% in the last 3 months which is actually an improvement over previous periods), I fully expected to be the only passenger between ELP & HSB. So I was surprised to see about 5 pax alight from the incoming service at ELP and a similar number board for the return. I was even more surprised to see 3 people board at Ince & Elton, one of the UK's least used stations. But as no tickets were checked or sold before they alighted at HSB, they probably won't be included in any usage stats.
 

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