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What implications does the latest battery train results have on future UK electrification ?.

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Harpo

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The Class 99 has made the business case for freight electrification basically zero.
On a low traffic or low speed route, the equivalent of a single 37 will probably be OK but in a busier faster traffic mix it won’t suffice. There is also just one of the FOCs that has them currently.

I wonder, though, how much the FOCs would be prepared to put towards funding OHLE instead of funding/leasing hundreds of millions of pounds of imported multi-traction locos?
 
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zwk500

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I'm going to disagree with the consensus here. I don't see that electrifying Didcot to Oxford makes much sense.

Yes, it would be lovely to have an all electric network, but the costs are just astronomical, so a good cold hard look at the different options needs to be considered.
The costs for Didcot-Oxford would not be as astronomical as some recent projects, as a lot of the prep work was done.
But Oxford isn't like that. Almost all trains to Oxford continue on somewhere else.
The are multiple trains an hour that terminate at Oxford from London. Electrifying to Oxford would allow the current London-Didcot EMU service and Didcot-Oxford DMU service to be recombined back into a London-Oxford semi-fast, but as an EMU. It would also allow GWR to use the IETs in all-electric mode between London and Oxford. Departing on electric will help with the throughput of the platforms. It also means electric-mode shunting in the sidings.
Most of the low hanging fruit of electrification that allows huge numbers of trains on fully contained diagrams to be replaced for short lengths of wiring has already been done. Battery tech seems to me to be ideal for places like Oxford, where it could reconnect the stoppers at didcot and remove all that pollution from the air just as well as a billion pounds of wiring.
Battery tech is better suited to the Cotswolds Line, not a mainline.
We should then concentrate on where electrification genuinely is the only option. For me discontinuous electrification on the Chiltern mainline would be a far bigger priority than Oxford, coupled with batter technology - wire the cheap bits from Marylebone to High Wycombe and the Snow Hill core, and with decent batteries you could replace every Chiltern and West Midland Snow Hill train with BEMUs.
I agree that Marylebone out and the Snow Hill core would be higher priorities than Didcot-Oxford, but removing the terminating EMUs from Didcot without needing to replace the 387s would also be an improvement.
 

BerkshireRails

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Just another demonstration of the potential of battery trains to travel very long distances.
At 30-40mph with no heating and non stop, I don't think that will be a popular move, timetabling and passenger wise.
But Oxford isn't like that. Almost all trains to Oxford continue on somewhere else. So as lots of people on this thread say, why not electrify Didcot to Oxford to Birmingham NS, via Solihull and Coventry. The problem is, as far as I can see, thst still only allows the Didcot - Oxford stoppers to go fully electric. All other trains would still need to be bi-mode! Manchester - Bournemouth would also need Reading - Basingstoke to be wired, whilst North East to Reading needs MML to be finished and Birmingham to Derby to be done. GWR long distance trains generally carry on towards Worcester (OK, there are a few Banburys that would be fully electric).
Oxford electrification would enable a minimum of three trains per hour to be fully electric, 2tph Didcot Stopper and 1tph London to Oxford fast, the North Cotsworld service would pan up and down at Hanborough which would be the limit of electrification.
 

martin butler

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The problem will be costs, electrification isn't cheap, but neither is new rolling stock, unless your already ordering new stock to replace older stock, that is at end of its useful life,

In that case, and if its across numerous operators, and a large order, economies of scale could make new stock, with battery provision, cost effective over electrification schemes, where the vehicles can operate either as electric, with battery for non powered sections, then, clearly, there would be advantages, as one type of unit, could replace more than one other type

One possible option could be to use the interchangeable traction pack concept, used on the 230, to enable units to be changed from electric, to deisel, and battery, using self contained modules, so a depot can be standardised on one type of unit, but those units could be a range of types some overhead/ battery, some 3rd rail/ Battery, and even some Deisel powering electric traction units,,
 

zwk500

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One possible option could be to use the interchangeable traction pack concept, used on the 230, to enable units to be changed from electric, to deisel, and battery, using self contained modules, so a depot can be standardised on one type of unit, but those units could be a range of types some overhead/ battery, some 3rd rail/ Battery, and even some Deisel powering electric traction units,,
This is the concept that the IETs are designed to (apparently) - in theory (yes, I know, I know) you can exchange the diesel gensets for battery packs to convert a DMU or BMMU to a BEMU/TMMU or remove them entirely for an EMU.
 

jon0844

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As batteries keep getting cheaper, it will make sense for most trains to have a battery that can at the very least get a train to limp to a station or keep the HVAC going. The basic systems supported on battery today, for such a short time, seems very outdated when there's technology out there to add resilience.

And replacing diesel tanks for batteries seems like a good way to keep old DMUs in service in the future, assuming they remain structurally sound and are on suitable routes that includes facilities to recharge quickly.

Given I can't see the Government (either Labour today or whoever gets in next) rushing to invest in sorting out all the non-electrified routes anytime soon, batteries help with 'net zero' targets - as well as making older trains cleaner and quieter.
 

HSTEd

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On a low traffic or low speed route, the equivalent of a single 37 will probably be OK but in a busier faster traffic mix it won’t suffice. There is also just one of the FOCs that has them currently.
A Class 99 has way more power available than a Class 37. It's 2400hp vs 1750hp of engine power, and I imagine the traction system on the Class 99 is rather more efficient than that on the Class 37.
I wonder, though, how much the FOCs would be prepared to put towards funding OHLE instead of funding/leasing hundreds of millions of pounds of imported multi-traction locos?
You won't get much OLE at all for the cost of a Class 99.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

At 30-40mph with no heating and non stop, I don't think that will be a popular move, timetabling and passenger wise.
Ultimately, a 1970s tube train with batteries attached to it will not have performance comparable to a modern, purpose designed unit.
That such a lashup can manage this demonstrates just how much capability modern battery trains will be able to have.

EDIT:
Has anyone found this test on realtime trains?

i've had a look but can't seem to locate it.
 
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Trainbike46

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The Class 99 has made the business case for freight electrification basically zero.
Not really, It has worsened the business case on slow branch lines where power needs are limited, but improved it on lines where the power needs are large (e.g., steep inclines or sections where high-speed or fast accelleration is needed).
The PM programme on Radio 4 this evening had a report on this, just before the weather forecast at the end of the programme. Evan Davis interviewed Paul Gentleman of GWR.

He said that the old Stadler record was 139 miles.

One key point emphasised was fast charging, taking about 3 minutes.

A battery train with a 200 mile range that can charge in 3 minutes will be a much cheaper option than electrification on many routes.
The three minutes are for top-up charging, not from empty to full (or even from 20% to 80%)
The key issue that will determine the extent of the feasibility of using battery trains is going to be their cost, in comparison to straight electric trains. That's mostly the cost of the batteries. In a lot of cases the extra cost of the batteries is going to be cheaper than the cost of installing overhead line.
We will need electrification islands at key locations for charging, these could be part of a mainline electrification, or they could be primarily to charge BEMUs.

What is needed is an assessment of where these should be, then the relevant feeder station connections should be requested/applied for, and the electrification should be built as a rolling programme, with the order decided based on when the feeder stations become available.

Obvious ones that I think will be needed are an area around Exeter, and extension of electrification to Bristol (both ways), and Oxford (from GWML)
 
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BerkshireRails

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Ultimately, a 1970s tube train with batteries attached to it will not have performance comparable to a modern, purpose designed unit.
That such a lashup can manage this demonstrates just how much capability modern battery trains will be able to have.
However purpose designed unit will struggle to get 200 miles in revenue service, considering the GWR 230 can only do 1/3-1/4 of the range in service, with either 3 or 9 ton of batteries per coach.
EDIT:
Has anyone found this test on realtime trains?
3Q80 the 00:08 Reading to Paddington = https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:V34983/2025-08-20/detailed 3Q81 the 01:17 Paddington to Oxford = https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:V34982/2025-08-20/detailed 3Q82 the 03:02 Oxford to Paddington = https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:V34981/2025-08-20/detailed 3Q83 the 05:12 Paddington to Reading = https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:V34980/2025-08-20/detailed
 

HSTEd

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However purpose designed unit will struggle to get 200 miles in revenue service, considering the GWR 230 can only do 1/3-1/4 of the range in service, with either 3 or 9 ton of batteries per coach.
Whilst power output required scales by the square of the speed (due to air resistance), energy required to traverse a given distance only scales linearly with speed. Doubling the speed quadrouples the power requirement, but the train arrives in half the time.

So the train would still expect ~120 miles of range at its top speed of 60mph.
And a short D-train is hardly aerodynamic.

This tallies with the estimate given in the RailExpress article:
The 200-mile record was achieved operating in ‘SuperMode’ – travelling at speeds of between 30mph and 40mph and without heating. It is estimated that around 120 miles could have been achieved travelling at full speed (60mph).

Electric cars achieve 200 miles range today, with vastly higher aerodynamic and rolling resistance losses than trains!
Thanks.
 

stevieinselby

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I'm going to disagree with the consensus here. I don't see that electrifying Didcot to Oxford makes much sense.

Yes, it would be lovely to have an all electric network, but the costs are just astronomical, so a good cold hard look at the different options needs to be considered. Transpenine electrification makes a lot of sense - a relatively short and very busy diesel line between two large electrified networks at each end, so for a (relatively) low cost you can replace several fleets of diesels with all electric trains (perhaps with batteries for extensions to Hull etc)

But Oxford isn't like that. Almost all trains to Oxford continue on somewhere else. So as lots of people on this thread say, why not electrify Didcot to Oxford to Birmingham NS, via Solihull and Coventry. The problem is, as far as I can see, thst still only allows the Didcot - Oxford stoppers to go fully electric. All other trains would still need to be bi-mode! Manchester - Bournemouth would also need Reading - Basingstoke to be wired, whilst North East to Reading needs MML to be finished and Birmingham to Derby to be done. GWR long distance trains generally carry on towards Worcester (OK, there are a few Banburys that would be fully electric).
The issue with talking about batteries for Didcot to Oxford is that we're not looking at replacing a diesel fleet with battery bi-modes.
The IETs that run the Oxford fasts and Cotswolds services are diesel bi-modes and have another 30 years in service, so unless the diesel generators can be swapped out for battery packs that would be sufficient to run Didcot to Hereford and back or they can be swapped out to other services, those trains will still be running on diesel for some/all of the route.
The Oxford to Didcot shuttles really want to be re-joined to the London to Didcot services that are run by 387s – if those were switched out for battery bi-modes then yes, there would be a small number of 165s that could be binned, but there would be a lot more 387s that have many years of life left in them that would become surplus to requirements and that would only be sensible if they could be redeployed elsewhere.
 

BerkshireRails

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Electric cars achieve 200 miles range today, with vastly higher aerodynamic and rolling resistance losses than trains!
A Tesla Model 3 has range of 416 miles with a 79kWH battery and weights 1.8 tons. The GWR Class 230 has 6 104kWH batteries for a total capacity of 624kWH, the GWR 230 probably weights around 90 tons in total. Rail uses a third of the energy of a road vehicle to move the same load the same distance. The GWR 230 has a power to weight ration of 6.9kWH to 1ton versus 43.8kWH to 1ton for the Tesla Model 3.
The issue with talking about batteries for Didcot to Oxford is that we're not looking at replacing a diesel fleet with battery bi-modes.
The IETs that run the Oxford fasts and Cotswolds services are diesel bi-modes and have another 30 years in service, so unless the diesel generators can be swapped out for battery packs that would be sufficient to run Didcot to Hereford and back or they can be swapped out to other services, those trains will still be running on diesel for some/all of the route.
The Oxford to Didcot shuttles really want to be re-joined to the London to Didcot services that are run by 387s – if those were switched out for battery bi-modes then yes, there would be a small number of 165s that could be binned, but there would be a lot more 387s that have many years of life left in them that would become surplus to requirements and that would only be sensible if they could be redeployed elsewhere.
The 387s could move to Govia Thameslink Railway Southern brand. The routes GWR are looking at are the short and low speed branches like Marlow, Henley, Windsor and Greenford.
 

Topological

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The issue with talking about batteries for Didcot to Oxford is that we're not looking at replacing a diesel fleet with battery bi-modes.
The IETs that run the Oxford fasts and Cotswolds services are diesel bi-modes and have another 30 years in service, so unless the diesel generators can be swapped out for battery packs that would be sufficient to run Didcot to Hereford and back or they can be swapped out to other services, those trains will still be running on diesel for some/all of the route.
The Oxford to Didcot shuttles really want to be re-joined to the London to Didcot services that are run by 387s – if those were switched out for battery bi-modes then yes, there would be a small number of 165s that could be binned, but there would be a lot more 387s that have many years of life left in them that would become surplus to requirements and that would only be sensible if they could be redeployed elsewhere.
With the work at Oxford done, you could even look at additional Oxford to Reading EMUs to speed up the Paddington 387s a bit and/or offer additional connections into other GWR services to/from Swindon and the West. Just reuniting the Didcot to Paddington with the Didcot to Oxford would help.
 

BerkshireRails

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With the work at Oxford done, you could even look at additional Oxford to Reading EMUs to speed up the Paddington 387s a bit and/or offer additional connections into other GWR services to/from Swindon and the West. Just reuniting the Didcot to Paddington with the Didcot to Oxford would help.
I have a feeling on Sundays the Didcot to Oxford shuttle is extended to Reading calling all stops.
 

Bald Rick

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Hopefully none. Batteries along with bi-modes should be considered a stop-gap to allow for decarbonisation until routes can be fully electrified. They are not a panacea or substitute for electrification and therefore should not be treated as such.

Given the success of this trial (which to me seems like quite a successful stunt), and how battery technology has developed over the past decade, it seems quite reasonable to forsee regular BEMUs with 2-300 mile ranges being available within a decade. Allied to that could be BE Frieght Locos with a 200 mile range. The challenge at that point will be providing enough power to the stretches of line that are to be used for charging. But if that is overcome - and it would have to be overcome for a fully electrified infrastructure also - then that will cover the vast majority of the railway, with exceptions for high speed / high bolume routes (which tyoically already have the wires up).


It does surprise me how there is a decent proportion of opinions that can’t seem to understand (accept?) the rather considerable benefits battery units.

Leaving aside the very considerable cost saving, there is a big improvement in system reliability - not just from the absence of electrification infrastructure failures but also from all types of incident that require the power to be off, from tresspass to severe weather to engineering works and plenty in between.

It would also, usually, be quicker to deliver electric servcies with BEMUs than when electrifying the infrastructure.

So, BEMUs could offer significantly cheaper and more reliable electric services, delivered sooner, with much lower ongoing operation and maintenance cost than an electrified infrastructure.

What‘s not to like?
 

JohnRegular

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I can't help but be impressed at how well the battery train trial appears to have gone for GWR. Surely the equation is changing.

In my own neck of the woods, it was not long ago that I would have been absolutely on board with full electrification along the Avon Valley (Bathampton jn - Bradford jn). But this is well within the range of battery trains, so if some 'islands' of OLE are thrown up around Westbury (perhaps extending to Warminster and Frome where trains regularly terminate) and Salisbury (desirable for decarbonising the SWR trains there anyway), then why go through the hassle? The inevitable NIMBYs, dealing with two aqueducts and a tunnel, to what end?

Portsmouth-Cardiff, for example, would have perhaps 50-60 unelectrified route miles if wires go up on Filton Bank, through Bath, and around Westbury and Salisbury as suggested above. Seems like this will be well within the range of a modern battery train. If new trains need to be ordered with modular diesel engines, replaced by batteries as more wires go up, then that seems reasonable to me.

There must be plenty of routes across the country where similar applies.

As another user put it, get the 'trunks and hubs' wired, and hopefully the money that would be spent wiring secondary and tertiary routes can be out to better use.
 

BerkshireRails

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Given the success of this trial (which to me seems like quite a successful stunt), and how battery technology has developed over the past decade, it seems quite reasonable to forsee regular BEMUs with 2-300 mile ranges being available within a decade. Allied to that could be BE Frieght Locos with a 200 mile range. The challenge at that point will be providing enough power to the stretches of line that are to be used for charging. But if that is overcome - and it would have to be overcome for a fully electrified infrastructure also - then that will cover the vast majority of the railway, with exceptions for high speed / high bolume routes (which tyoically already have the wires up).


It does surprise me how there is a decent proportion of opinions that can’t seem to understand (accept?) the rather considerable benefits battery units.

Leaving aside the very considerable cost saving, there is a big improvement in system reliability - not just from the absence of electrification infrastructure failures but also from all types of incident that require the power to be off, from tresspass to severe weather to engineering works and plenty in between.

It would also, usually, be quicker to deliver electric servcies with BEMUs than when electrifying the infrastructure.

So, BEMUs could offer significantly cheaper and more reliable electric services, delivered sooner, with much lower ongoing operation and maintenance cost than an electrified infrastructure.

What‘s not to like?
I am being more realistic with thinking of an in service range of 100 miles, I am not saying nope to being optimistic, however you have to remember according to Geoff Marshall video the 230 stunt was running 4-5x more efficiently than it does on the Greenford Branch.

The pollution issues from mining the lithium for the batteries.
 

Bald Rick

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however you have to remember according to Geoff Marshall video the 230 stunt was running 4-5x more efficiently than it does on the Greenford Branch.

I don’t knwo what branch of Engineering Geoff has his qualifications in, but no doubt he has a point. However the answer will just be ’bigger and better batteries’; I have no doubt that those in the 230 could be considerably improved.

The pollution issues from mining the lithium for the batteries.

Vs the pollution issues from mining steel, aluminium and copper for electrificstion infrastructure. How much lithium is in 2 tonnes of LTO battery, and how much Copper and aluminium is in 100km of OLE?
 

BerkshireRails

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I don’t knwo what branch of Engineering Geoff has his qualifications in, but no doubt he has a point. However the answer will just be ’bigger and better batteries’; I have no doubt that those in the 230 could be considerably improved.
Like fitting extra batteries to currently non battery fitted trailer coach?
Vs the pollution issues from mining steel, aluminium and copper for electrificstion infrastructure. How much lithium is in 2 tonnes of LTO battery, and how much Copper and aluminium is in 100km of OLE?
That is a good question which I don't have an answer for, however it might be possible to use completely recycled steel and copper for the OLE.
 

Sorcerer

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Given the success of this trial (which to me seems like quite a successful stunt), and how battery technology has developed over the past decade, it seems quite reasonable to forsee regular BEMUs with 2-300 mile ranges being available within a decade. Allied to that could be BE Frieght Locos with a 200 mile range. The challenge at that point will be providing enough power to the stretches of line that are to be used for charging. But if that is overcome - and it would have to be overcome for a fully electrified infrastructure also - then that will cover the vast majority of the railway, with exceptions for high speed / high bolume routes (which tyoically already have the wires up).


It does surprise me how there is a decent proportion of opinions that can’t seem to understand (accept?) the rather considerable benefits battery units.

Leaving aside the very considerable cost saving, there is a big improvement in system reliability - not just from the absence of electrification infrastructure failures but also from all types of incident that require the power to be off, from tresspass to severe weather to engineering works and plenty in between.

It would also, usually, be quicker to deliver electric servcies with BEMUs than when electrifying the infrastructure.

So, BEMUs could offer significantly cheaper and more reliable electric services, delivered sooner, with much lower ongoing operation and maintenance cost than an electrified infrastructure.

What‘s not to like?
Battery units obviously have some short-term advantages over electrification in terms of upfront cost savings, but they aren't exactly light additions to rolling stock and will increase the number of moving parts for maintenance. But they also need to be charged which is definitely not a quick process, and if done at terminating stations that will increase turnaround times. They also aren't as environmentally friendly. Batteries obviously have their place in filling gaps in electrification and being a short-term way of getting diesel off the network, but long-term just put the darn wires up where we can and save the batteries for the parts where we can't. As usual the Swiss had the right approach.
 

JohnMcL7

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How well does the class 756 run on battery power or are they not used yet? I noticed it's stated they are tri-mode units but they don't seem to get mentioned in battery threads so I assume I'm missing something.
 

brad465

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Given the success of this trial (which to me seems like quite a successful stunt), and how battery technology has developed over the past decade, it seems quite reasonable to forsee regular BEMUs with 2-300 mile ranges being available within a decade. Allied to that could be BE Frieght Locos with a 200 mile range. The challenge at that point will be providing enough power to the stretches of line that are to be used for charging. But if that is overcome - and it would have to be overcome for a fully electrified infrastructure also - then that will cover the vast majority of the railway, with exceptions for high speed / high bolume routes (which tyoically already have the wires up).


It does surprise me how there is a decent proportion of opinions that can’t seem to understand (accept?) the rather considerable benefits battery units.

Leaving aside the very considerable cost saving, there is a big improvement in system reliability - not just from the absence of electrification infrastructure failures but also from all types of incident that require the power to be off, from tresspass to severe weather to engineering works and plenty in between.

It would also, usually, be quicker to deliver electric servcies with BEMUs than when electrifying the infrastructure.

So, BEMUs could offer significantly cheaper and more reliable electric services, delivered sooner, with much lower ongoing operation and maintenance cost than an electrified infrastructure.

What‘s not to like?
I certainly hope they roll out widely, but the problem I see with rapidly developing technology is prospective customers just sit and wait for something better to come along (like that fancy term used to describe curtailing GWML electrification that I can't remember), even though they will still be getting very good products now. Plus, the way I see it, they need to be buying rather than waiting, to enable the research, development and understanding that actually enables that rapid advance in technology they think is coming.
 

eldomtom2

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I certainly hope they roll out widely, but the problem I see with rapidly developing technology is prospective customers just sit and wait for something better to come along (like that fancy term used to describe curtailing GWML electrification that I can't remember), even though they will still be getting very good products now. Plus, the way I see it, they need to be buying rather than waiting, to enable the research, development and understanding that actually enables that rapid advance in technology they think is coming.
The term is bionic duckweed, first coined by Roger Ford in 2008 when giving evidence to the Transport Committee, critiquing the 2007 White Paper Delivering a Sustainable Railway's dismissal of large-scale electrification, on the grounds that it was too expensive, would be more cost-effective if installed after ECTS had been implemented, and that "the future performance of electric and self-powered trains is unpredictable today. Developments in hybrid technology, biofuels and hydrogen fuel cells will improve the carbon performance of self-powered trains". Notably batteries were not mentioned, which I think illustrates your point very well. Certainly the train operating companies are not acting as though they think batteries can sweep the diesel engine away, and are instead ordering tri-mode rolling stock.
 

GRALISTAIR

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I love OH AC electrification but this will have the HMT/DfT/politicians salivating- even more so than Hydrogen. Sad but true imho
 

Harpo

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I love OH AC electrification but this will have the HMT/DfT/politicians salivating- even more so than Hydrogen. Sad but true imho
Especially as it continues the PFI smoke and mirrors game of avoiding government capital expenditure, keeping its costs off of the government’s debt pile and converting it into expensive & additional operational spend somewhere else for future generations to worry about.
 

BayPaul

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At 30-40mph with no heating and non stop, I don't think that will be a popular move, timetabling and passenger wise.

Oxford electrification would enable a minimum of three trains per hour to be fully electric, 2tph Didcot Stopper and 1tph London to Oxford fast, the North Cotsworld service would pan up and down at Hanborough which would be the limit of electrification.
Adding batteries to 387s (or replacing them with BEMUs and sending them to Southern) would also allow this, and would also allow the Bedwyn shuttles to be replaced with through electric trains from London.

The 80xs can also take a battery to allow the fasts to go electric.
 

martin butler

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I think that short term, it's going to be a game changer, especially if the old DMU fleet is due for replacement,

if the manufacturers of rolling stock come up with a viable product, that incorporated the fast charge capability, and were able to run additionally as normal EMUs on either OHLW, or 3rd rail, and could charge on the move, then limited further electrification could be an option,

for example, much of the branches on GW, in the London area, have overhead live wires, at some point, so that means in essence a common fleet, able to operate main line, as well as branch services,

in the south, the 3 main routes, have 3rd rail, along parts of the route, so again, a 3rd rail/ battery unit, could operate as a normal emu, picking up from 3rd rail, then on battery for the unelectrified sections,
 

Bald Rick

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but they aren't exactly light additions to rolling stock

A few tonnes on a unit weighing 150t is simply not an issue. Some EMUs are ballasted to bring them up to a certain weight (DC377s for example) - just use batteries instead of ballst. Problem solved.

and will increase the number of moving parts for maintenance

By how many?

But they also need to be charged which is definitely not a quick process

See above about GWR. Regardless, it doesn’t need to be that quick when running on short islands of electrification.

and if done at terminating stations that will increase turnaround times.

Will it? And even if so, so what?

They also aren't as environmentally friendly

In what way? If you‘re referring to the mining of a few kg of lithium per unit (a lithium battery doesn’t have much lithium in it), then compare that to the mining necessary for the copper, steel, aluminium, aggregate and cement required for OLE. In any event a BEMU is somewhat more environmentally friendly then DMUs, I’m sure you’ll agree.

As usual the Swiss had the right approach.

They also had near unlimited quantities of hydro power and no coal or oil.
 
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jon0844

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What‘s not to like?

This.

It's the future (that's not hyperbolic IMO). It solves many issues, and makes it easier to 'upgrade' old lines to get rid of diesel, as well as potentially making it easier and cheaper to build new lines in the future. Imagine the many long decommissioned lines that could be brought back into service without the need for electrification.

Ironically, this isn't like ICE vs EV where many people are arguing for keeping fossil fuel powered vehicles. Here it seems to be overhead or third-rail vs battery, and comments I've seen about how the grid won't be able to cope. Well, the electricity to charge the batteries is the same electricity that would power the trains via wires. There are obviously losses when you convert from AC to DC and back etc, and losses along the line, so I wonder what the actual differences are.

You potentially don't have to worry about a section of railway where you can only run so many trains at once, and you can store battery storage systems at a station/depot more slowly - to dump into a battery fast when the time comes if needed (or slow charge them when stabled). So that can save a lot of infrastructure upgrade works too.

The reasons people will not like it are likely the same reasons people attack EVs. They believe the grid cannot cope (it can and will) and the batteries will only last a few years (they'll last way longer). I suppose there's also the fire risk concern, but that will depend on the battery chemistry - as well as batteries rarely just catching fire for no reason.
 

hwl

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On a low traffic or low speed route, the equivalent of a single 37 will probably be OK but in a busier faster traffic mix it won’t suffice. There is also just one of the FOCs that has them currently.

I wonder, though, how much the FOCs would be prepared to put towards funding OHLE instead of funding/leasing hundreds of millions of pounds of imported multi-traction locos?
A Class 99 has way more power available than a Class 37. It's 2400hp vs 1750hp of engine power, and I imagine the traction system on the Class 99 is rather more efficient than that on the Class 37.

You won't get much OLE at all for the cost of a Class 99.
Above ~20mph the performance at the wheel of a 99 on diesel is very similar to a Class 47
 
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