Project Oval: TfL win DfT contract to expand contactless system to 233 rail stations by May 2024, Railcards coming to contactless payment cards

[JonathanH]

They've been installed recently at Clandon and Horsley, not sure if any other SWR stations have gained them too.

Neither of those are in the 49 - https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...ess-payment-cards.231684/page-42#post-7126917

 

[weeklycommuter]

The only further extension so far announced is the following dated 20 January 2025 for 49 more stations sometime in 2025 following the 47 stations added on 2 February 2025. No news so far on when these 49 more stations will have contactless. None of the 49 stations are run by SWR.

I have still not seen any news on when these 49 more stations including Stansted Airport will have contactless. I do not know if it will happen in 2025.

 

[TEW]

Neither of those are in the 49 - https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...ess-payment-cards.231684/page-42#post-7126917

Indeed. So it's interesting that they have been installed already. They're the same readers as installed at the Uber Boats stations in London I believe rather than the more commonly found rail style. It was briefed internally as being in preparation for further rollout of Contactless though.

 

[MikeWh]

Whilst this thread is still live, I note no further progress with the roll out of further Oval fares from September.

Is there anywhere where the TfL style Contactless readers are currently being installed?

If 49 further stations are to get PAYG Contactless by the end of the year, there will need to be an installation programme and some fare changes in the last four months of 2025.

As far as I know there will not be anything new added in September - we'd know about it by now if there was. The next fares change for PAYG is in December, which will allow for a Christmas go-live if it happens. They only promised later in 2025 in the January press release.

 

[aron2smith]

As far as I know there will not be anything new added in September - we'd know about it by now if there was. The next fares change for PAYG is in December, which will allow for a Christmas go-live if it happens. They only promised later in 2025 in the January press release.

I get it's a big change to roll out but the really slow progress is taking the mickey! Contactless was needed at Stansted yesterday. This is taking way too long!

In the meantime, Greater Anglia is ripping confused passengers off with fines and the period return is massively more expensive than a day return for those of us nearer to the airport, when it should be obvious any airport passengers will not be coming back the same day.

 

[A S Leib]

when it should be obvious any airport passengers will not be coming back the same day.

A very small number of passengers (especially business travellers?) might, and I'd be surprised if the number of workers commuting to the airport by rail was zero.

 

[aron2smith]

A very small number of passengers (especially business travellers?) might, and I'd be surprised if the number of workers commuting to the airport by rail was zero.

That depends on if they are coming back in the right time period, I imagine a decent number of staff and frequent flyers must get stung by having to return early the next day, so effectively have to pay twice for one return journey (not sure if Stansted subsidises rail or coach travel for staff, at least in part though). But part of why I'm growing impatient for Oval is because even though I won't use contactless (at least until they accept my railcard), is they positively impact paper tickets. Singles will finally always be half of a return, regardless of time of day travelled or day travelled. That makes travel far more flexible, which is part of why London is so productive I think.

Also with South Wales very suddenly and quickly rolling out their own contactless system with similar but imperfect adjustment to fares, it's a wonder if the South East will end up left behind. London stuck with an inflexible archaic fare system that can't cover it's natural commuter belt, whilst other regions end up literally leapfrogging us.

 

[londonbridge]

when it should be obvious any airport passengers will not be coming back the same day.

Also don’t forget those meeting passengers from incoming flights.

 

[BlueLeanie]

Once E-W opens, as long a I don't leave a station, can I tap in at Paddington and tap out at Bletchley?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 27 Aug 2025 ==

In the meantime, Greater Anglia is ripping confused passengers off with fines and the period return is massively more expensive than a day return for those of us nearer to the airport, when it should be obvious any airport passengers will not be coming back the same day.

That's the perceived fear that a passenger would re-use the return portion of a paper period return repeatedly over 30 days or so.

Easily fixed by offering a digital period return on a Smartcard.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Once E-W opens, as long a I don't leave a station, can I tap in at Paddington and tap out at Bletchley?

No, because that would take you outside of the Project Oval area, which on the GWML doesn't extend to Oxford.

 

[JonathanH]

Once E-W opens, as long a I don't leave a station, can I tap in at Paddington and tap out at Bletchley?

Not via the East-West line as you need to stay within the Contactless area which won't include that line. You can already tap in at Paddington and tap out at Bletchley, so long as you go via Watford.

 

[aron2smith]

No, because that would take you outside of the Project Oval area, which on the GWML doesn't extend to Oxford.

A bit like how contactless exists both in London and Reading but it's not permitted to take the Waterloo train if you use contactless to go to Reading at the moment. Contactless only goes as far as Virginia Water on that line? So only valid from Paddington. Hopefully that line gets contactless in full soon. And if Aylesbury ever connects to EWR (it should!), contactless from there to Bletchley and even Cambridge makes sense.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 27 Aug 2025 ==

That's the perceived fear that a passenger would re-use the return portion of a paper period return repeatedly over 30 days or so.

Easily fixed by offering a digital period return on a Smartcard.

That's why they should check trains more consistently and always mark, stamp or punch a hole in the ticket like they used to. Also making all singles cost half of a return means I'm not penalised for when I choose to return, the railway still gets the revenue either way.

 

[Skimpot flyer]

A bit like how contactless exists both in London and Reading but it's not permitted to take the Waterloo train if you use contactless to go to Reading at the moment. Contactless only goes as far as Virginia Water on that line? So only valid from Paddington. Hopefully that line gets contactless in full soon. And if Aylesbury ever connects to EWR (it should!), contactless from there to Bletchley and even Cambridge makes sense.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 27 Aug 2025 ==


That's why they should check trains more consistently and always mark, stamp or punch a hole in the ticket like they used to. Also making all singles cost half of a return means I'm not penalised for when I choose to return, the railway still gets the revenue either way.

I used the return portion of a Period Return to Oxford from Brighton station the other day. It had validity until 15 September but was rejected at the barriers, I’m assuming because of a railcard discount and the need to show said railcard.
I was pleasantly surprised that the young lady on the gateline actually examined it properly and wrote the date “28/08/25” in red pen on the front.

 

[david1212]

...
That's why they should check trains more consistently and always mark, stamp or punch a hole in the ticket like they used to. Also making all singles cost half of a return means I'm not penalised for when I choose to return, the railway still gets the revenue either way.

The single has to be half the price of a day return else those returning the same day are penalised while the railway treasury looses out against a period return. OT but where otherwise no difference in restrictions between a day return & the equivalent period return why charge more to return on a different day?

I used the return portion of a Period Return to Oxford from Brighton station the other day. It had validity until 15 September but was rejected at the barriers, I’m assuming because of a railcard discount and the need to show said railcard.
I was pleasantly surprised that the young lady on the gateline actually examined it properly and wrote the date “28/08/25” in red pen on the front.

Rejected where and what route / operator 'badge' trains were you using? Gatwick Express, Southern and Thameslink are all operated by GTR (Govia Thameslink Railway). However Brighton station and Gatwick Express onboard announcements still wrongly state that 'Southern only' tickets are not valid on Gatwick Express services.

I do not have a railcard. A couple of weeks ago my period return tickets valid on any operator were rejected at the barriers at both Victoria and Brighton, the latter code 113. Let in by gateline staff with just a glance, no marking. If running late because of trains or a queue at the barrier then a nuisance, worst case miss intended train.

 

[Skimpot flyer]

Rejected at the gateline in Brighton. No operator restrictions as it’s an ‘Any Permitted’ routeing

 

[Haywain]

I was pleasantly surprised that the young lady on the gateline actually examined it properly and wrote the date “28/08/25” in red pen on the front.

Writing that on the ticket could have caused problems if you had planned on breaking your journey for a few days.

 

[Watershed]

The single has to be half the price of a day return else those returning the same day are penalised while the railway treasury looses out against a period return.

It should be half of the cost of a day return but we've seen examples where it's not.

The Stansted Airport to London Terminals fares are a good example of this; the POC (off-peak PAYG fare) is set as £15.50 whilst the Off-Peak Day Return is £28, so a true 'half the return' fare would be £14. The Anytime Return is £38 and yet the PAYG peak single is £25.80; this is more than the current Anytime Single which is £25.

Clearly that's a case where single leg pricing really doesn't fit well into the current pricing structure and GA have taken the opportunity to raise quite a lot of extra revenue in the process.

Only those who travel off-peak in both directions will benefit from lower prices; anyone traveling peak in at least one direction would be substantially better off under the current fares structure. Of course a ticket to Elsenham is cheaper in a lot of cases, both now and under PAYG; similarly with GA-only tickets to Cambridge (especially on weekends and BHs).

As always, be careful what you wish for...

OT but where otherwise no difference in restrictions between a day return & the equivalent period return why charge more to return on a different day?

It's just a case of market based pricing. On the railways, people making day trips (particularly at off-peak times) are likely to be more price sensitive and to be making discretionary journeys. Therefore their fares are cheaper.

 

[aron2smith]

The single has to be half the price of a day return else those returning the same day are penalised while the railway treasury looses out against a period return. OT but where otherwise no difference in restrictions between a day return & the equivalent period return why charge more to return on a different day?

A lot of single tickets I've seen cost just 10p less than a return, which makes little sense. Also, Greater Anglia seem to find it acceptable to charge for a period return than a day return. Which I agree with you, makes no sense.

I get sold a period return for the same cost as a day one when travelling on GWR to Bristol or Plymouth, but no such luck on Greater Anglia if I want to see and stay overnight with family in Suffolk. Too me, that's inconsistent.

Cheshunt to Cambridge as an example with railcard. £16.45 day return, £24.15 period return both off peak! A single is £13.90, only 55p cheaper than a super off peak day return! That doesn't add up!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 31 Aug 2025 ==

The Stansted Airport to London Terminals fares are a good example of this; the POC (off-peak PAYG fare) is set as £15.50 whilst the Off-Peak Day Return is £28, so a true 'half the return' fare would be £14. The Anytime Return is £38 and yet the PAYG peak single is £25.80; this is more than the current Anytime Single which is £25.

How did you see what the PAYG fare for Stansted was? Does this mean we can expect a government announcement implementing these fares soon? I'm really interested in what it would cost for Harlow too.

Stansted had ticket barriers installed the other month, which I assumed was tied in with Oval in some way.

 

[Watershed]

A lot of single tickets I've seen cost just 10p less than a return, which makes little sense. Also, Greater Anglia seem to find it acceptable to charge for a period return than a day return. Which I agree with you, makes no sense.

I get sold a period return for the same cost as a day one when travelling on GWR to Bristol or Plymouth, but no such luck on Greater Anglia if I want to see and stay overnight with family in Suffolk. Too me, that's inconsistent.

Cheshunt to Cambridge as an example with railcard. £16.45 day return, £24.15 period return both off peak! A single is £13.90, only 55p cheaper than a super off peak day return! That doesn't add up!

If you have day returns as well as period returns for a particular journey, single fares cannot be priced at half the cost of a day return without undermining the period return fares.

For journeys where no period return exists, I agree that single fares should be based on half the cost of a return. That is also what has happened for most stations where PAYG has been rolled out recently - but they have tended to be ones where most people are making day trips anyway, whether commuting or for leisure purposes.

Stansted is different as the vast majority of people will not be returning the same day, hence the desire to maintain the higher fares that are currently charged. Unfortunately it looks like GA have taken this opportunity to silently bring in a huge price increase for the Stansted "Express".

How did you see what the PAYG fare for Stansted was?

It's visible on National Rail Enquiries and other journey planners if you search for 7 September or beyond.

Does this mean we can expect a government announcement implementing these fares soon?

The government announcement will not tell you exactly what the fares are. It will only tell you when PAYG has gone live.

Stansted had ticket barriers installed the other month, which I assumed was tied in with Oval in some way.

I think it was a prerequisite of rolling out PAYG that far, but clearly there are other things that also need to be done to enable the roll-out - not least of which, coordinating with TfL to ensure the fares are set up correctly.

 

[Haywain]

I get sold a period return for the same cost as a day one when travelling on GWR to Bristol or Plymouth, but no such luck on Greater Anglia if I want to see and stay overnight with family in Suffolk. Too me, that's inconsistent.

On the GWR journeys you talk about you don't get a day return, you only have a period return. Greater Anglia have a greater range of fares - would you be happier if they removed the day return fare so that you were charged the same for either type of journey?

 

[Kite159]

...

Writing that on the ticket could have caused problems if you had planned on breaking your journey for a few days.

It would be hard to break a journey with an Oxford - Brighton ticket when @Skimpot flyer was at Brighton (post 1545), as the ticket would have no further validity when the gateline assistant wrote the date on it.

 

[Haywain]

It would be hard to break a journey with an Oxford - Brighton ticket when @Skimpot flyer was at Brighton

I read that as being on the way back to Oxford.

 

[johncrossley]

On the GWR journeys you talk about you don't get a day return, you only have a period return. Greater Anglia have a greater range of fares - would you be happier if they removed the day return fare so that you were charged the same for either type of journey?

The competition is the car, and you don't pay a premium when driving for coming back on a different day. Expensive singles were brought in during BR days but with modern technology there's no need for return fares so if you were starting from scratch today you wouldn't have return fares.

 

[Haywain]

The competition is the car, and you don't pay a premium when driving for coming back on a different day. Expensive singles were brought in during BR days but with modern technology there's no need for return fares so if you were starting from scratch today you wouldn't have return fares.

That's not an answer to the question which was about the fares offered.

 

[johncrossley]

That's not an answer to the question which was about the fares offered.

There is only one answer compatible with my reply. Of course, I would not have different fares whether you came back the same day or another day. I don't want any kind of return, neither day or period, but if I had to choose it would be a period return costing the same as two singles.

 

[david1212]

It should be half of the cost of a day return but we've seen examples where it's not.

The Stansted Airport to London Terminals fares are a good example of this; the POC (off-peak PAYG fare) is set as £15.50 whilst the Off-Peak Day Return is £28, so a true 'half the return' fare would be £14. The Anytime Return is £38 and yet the PAYG peak single is £25.80; this is more than the current Anytime Single which is £25.

Clearly that's a case where single leg pricing really doesn't fit well into the current pricing structure and GA have taken the opportunity to raise quite a lot of extra revenue in the process.

Only those who travel off-peak in both directions will benefit from lower prices; anyone traveling peak in at least one direction would be substantially better off under the current fares structure.

While a total journey fare increase I can accept the single being slightly more than 50% of the return and occasionally the railway treasury might gain if I travelled peak for one leg but here for off-peak £15.50 is over 10% more and for peak a whopping £6.80 / 35% more. As to the PAYG single being more than the Anytime single that should not be but rather as the Anytime return is £38 the PAYG single ought to be ~£20.

Of course a ticket to Elsenham is cheaper in a lot of cases, both now and under PAYG; similarly with GA-only tickets to Cambridge (especially on weekends and BHs).

As always, be careful what you wish for..

First Joe & Joanne Public will not know this nor should / would expect a difference in their favour and second with PAYG no way to exit early as with a Aztec code or card ticket (presuming of course permitted).

A lot of single tickets I've seen cost just 10p less than a return, which makes little sense. ...

Local to me off-peak day return £10.70, off-peak day single £10.60. The time restrictions are the same. When PAYG comes off-peak single ought to be say £5.50 ( plus of course the annual fare increases ).
The anytime day return is £12.80 and the anytime return £18.80 so almost 50% more. The anytime day single is £10.80, there is not a anytime single.

 

[CyrusWuff]

Local to me off-peak day return £10.70, off-peak day single £10.60. The time restrictions are the same. When PAYG comes off-peak single ought to be say £5.50 ( plus of course the annual fare increases ).
The anytime day return is £12.80 and the anytime return £18.80 so almost 50% more. The anytime day single is £10.80, there is not a anytime single.

Without knowing what the fares in the reverse direction are (if different), it's likely the Off-Peak Day Return will increase to £10.80 to make it a multiple of 20p, and the Single will be £5.40 for compatibility with TfL's back-office.

The Anytime Day Return will be unchanged, the Anytime Return will be removed, and the Anytime Single will be £6.40.

 

[aron2smith]

If you have day returns as well as period returns for a particular journey, single fares cannot be priced at half the cost of a day return without undermining the period return fares.

For journeys where no period return exists, I agree that single fares should be based on half the cost of a return. That is also what has happened for most stations where PAYG has been rolled out recently - but they have tended to be ones where most people are making day trips anyway, whether commuting or for leisure purposes.

I really think period returns should cost the same as day returns, you are not travelling any further distance, it's just on a different day, that's it.

It's visible on National Rail Enquiries and other journey planners if you search for 7 September or beyond.

Yeah I saw it now, but the contactless fare only seemed to show when I put in Liverpool Street, Stratford or Tottenham Hale. No other contactless accepting stations seem to show on the system. I was surprised though as the fare doesn't show on BR Fares at all.

The government announcement will not tell you exactly what the fares are. It will only tell you when PAYG has gone live.

Yeah, that was what I meant. Sorry. So there's a chance that whenever DFT announces when PAYG goes live, it could happen within just a few weeks of the announcement?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 31 Aug 2025 ==

On the GWR journeys you talk about you don't get a day return, you only have a period return. Greater Anglia have a greater range of fares - would you be happier if they removed the day return fare so that you were charged the same for either type of journey?

Period returns should cost the same as a day return, there's no extra distance travelled, so there shouldn't be a premium just because I want to return on a different day. In the example I gave to Cambridge, it cost almost 50% more for a period return despite it being the same 40 miles there and 40 miles back. If London to Plymouth did that, it would cost me £30 to £45 more potentially just to return on a different day!

 

[Haywain]

Period returns should cost the same as a day return, there's no extra distance travelled, so there shouldn't be a premium just because I want to return on a different day. In the example I gave to Cambridge, it cost almost 50% more for a period return despite it being the same 40 miles there and 40 miles back.

On that basis you will be happy if GA remove the day return fare then.

 

[Watershed]

I really think period returns should cost the same as day returns, you are not travelling any further distance, it's just on a different day, that's it.

Morally I agree, however rail fares aren't mileage based. Market-based pricing has long been in operation in the UK, which dictates that day trippers are offered cheaper fares than other passengers.

I was surprised though as the fare doesn't show on BR Fares at all.

BR Fares doesn't always show future-dated fares immediately.

Yeah, that was what I meant. Sorry. So there's a chance that whenever DFT announces when PAYG goes live, it could happen within just a few weeks of the announcement?

Yes.