Caledonian Sleeper

[styles]

I have a question about the CS at dropoff-only calling points.

If we look at the Glasgow to London service one day last week, it was scheduled to arrive at Watford Junction at 0638 and depart at 0640, but it arrived at 0619 and departed at 0623: https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:C00477/2025-08-12/detailed

The lowlander services often get to Watford Junction and Euston a solid 15-45 minutes early.

Are passengers alighting at Watford Junction expected to depart as soon as it arrives? If so what happens if you don't (because you're asleep) and the train departs early?

This is actually slightly more relevant for my planned stop at Crewe, where Crewe is the penultimate calling point at 0530 before a final stop at Euston at 0800, and people are more likely to be catching those last few zzzs at 0530.

Would it make much practical difference whether the early departure was say 2 minutes, 5 minutes, or 45 minutes?

Perhaps the guard counts the number of people alighting (a tiny number at the likes of Crewe and Watford Junction presumably) and goes to poke anybody with tickets to Crewe still sat in their seat or berth?

I'm normally already awake at my arrival time and normally am either alighting at Crewe or a Scotland station where the whole early departure isn't so much of an issue.

 

[BRX]

I have wondered the same. It may be that they can identify when there no passengers due to get off at a given stop and therefore ignore the booked times on those nights?

 

[styles]

Part of me wonders if it was more than a few minutes early I'd be entitled to delay repay/compensation? Because if I miss my Crewe stop for example, I'm going to end up in London then a few hours getting back to Crewe. Probably an overall 4.5h delay and the new ticket from EUS-CRE would be just shy of a ton with split tickets.

 

[The_Van]

I'd say dozing rather than sleeping, it's very bright, the air con is ok but noisy. Only book the A seats (individual) the B seats are pairs then you're at the mercy of a stranger next to you although the cabin has been quiet whenever I've travelled.

Noise cancelling earphones a must, the seats aren't particularly comfortable but for £30 versus £150/£200 I'll survive a night

 

[styles]

I'd say dozing rather than sleeping, it's very bright, the air con is ok but noisy. Only book the A seats (individual) the B seats are pairs then you're at the mercy of a stranger next to you although the cabin has been quiet whenever I've travelled.

Noise cancelling earphones a must, the seats aren't particularly comfortable but for £30 versus £150/£200 I'll survive a night

I tend to book beds. I sleep exceptionally well in them and can often be in REM at 5am!

 

[185143]

Well it depends on your definition of comfortable!

I cannot sleep well sat upright at all. Even if you gave me some memory foam seat, I wouldn't sleep well sat upright.

I have however taken a lot of overnight transport where I've had to sleep upright.

I find the CS seats perfectly comfortable. I too find heat much worse than cold, especially when sleeping. You can always take a blanket or sleeping bag, but you can't cool down when it's too hot really. The recline isn't much, but frankly it isn't on any train or plane unless it's going to fold down into a bed. The seats themselves are comfy enough with headrests etc.

One thing I would point out is that nothing really stops you sleeping on the floor. Because I can't sleep well upright, I got into the habit of waiting until the final pickup point had passed, then going to sleep in the corner in the wheelchair area. I used to take it for hiking trips so I often had a sleeping bag which helped, but I sleep fine pretty much anywhere as long as I'm lying down not sat upright. Nobody will care, even staff, and almost everybody will be asleep anyway so who cares.

I have seen someone do exactly that! You don't have a red blanket by any chance?

I find the seats ok. A significant downgrade on the previous seats mind you. Varies wildly how well I actually sleep though, sometimes I sleep really well, others I end up sleeping abysmally. And that's with varying amounts of beer consumption. I would never do the sleeper and then go to work the next day as my job is safety critical, the quality of sleep cannot be relied upon. They do as much as they can to make it a reasonable environment for sleeping, the eye mask and earplugs are appreciated and they do usually dim the lights later in the evening in my experience. Plus it's basically a first class day coach. Compared to the hellish couple of nights I've had on the Night Riviera seats, it's a huge difference. I spent my week in Cornwall praying that the train would fail and an IET ran it instead. And yes. I'm being serious, but that's for another thread.

I like the sleeper. It's very much a "play thing" to me and I find the seats are often exceptional value for money. London-Fort William with a railcard for less than £40? I've never looked admittedly, but I'd be amazed if you could do it by coach for less.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 20 Aug 2025 ==

I have a question about the CS at dropoff-only calling points.

If we look at the Glasgow to London service one day last week, it was scheduled to arrive at Watford Junction at 0638 and depart at 0640, but it arrived at 0619 and departed at 0623: https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:C00477/2025-08-12/detailed

The lowlander services often get to Watford Junction and Euston a solid 15-45 minutes early.

Are passengers alighting at Watford Junction expected to depart as soon as it arrives? If so what happens if you don't (because you're asleep) and the train departs early?

This is actually slightly more relevant for my planned stop at Crewe, where Crewe is the penultimate calling point at 0530 before a final stop at Euston at 0800, and people are more likely to be catching those last few zzzs at 0530.

Would it make much practical difference whether the early departure was say 2 minutes, 5 minutes, or 45 minutes?

Perhaps the guard counts the number of people alighting (a tiny number at the likes of Crewe and Watford Junction presumably) and goes to poke anybody with tickets to Crewe still sat in their seat or berth?

I'm normally already awake at my arrival time and normally am either alighting at Crewe or a Scotland station where the whole early departure isn't so much of an issue.

I've seen someone get a nudge on the approach to Watford in the seats.

 

[styles]

I have seen someone do exactly that! You don't have a red blanket by any chance?

I do not. I have a light grey sleeping bag which I often just unzip and use as a blanket as I find the train quite warm (I run really warm)

And that's with varying amounts of beer consumption.

I must admit I've done this with flights before - half a dozen G&Ts and I can at least manage a couple of hours sat upright. Not exactly a recommended strategy!

I would never do the sleeper and then go to work the next day as my job is safety critical, the quality of sleep cannot be relied upon. They do as much as they can to make it a reasonable environment for sleeping, the eye mask and earplugs are appreciated and they do usually dim the lights later in the evening in my experience. Plus it's basically a first class day coach. Compared to the hellish couple of nights I've had on the Night Riviera seats, it's a huge difference. I spent my week in Cornwall praying that the train would fail and an IET ran it instead. And yes. I'm being serious, but that's for another thread.

Yeah this is why I book a bed when travelling for work. I wake up right as rain after that but not in the seats.

I like the sleeper. It's very much a "play thing" to me and I find the seats are often exceptional value for money. London-Fort William with a railcard for less than £40? I've never looked admittedly, but I'd be amazed if you could do it by coach for less.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 20 Aug 2025 ==

This is largely why I took it even when I had not much money but wanted to go to the Highlands for hiking weekends. Get there early Saturday morning, 2 long full days outdoors, then the return journey leaves late to head back south, get to Euston early enough to Tube it to the City for work, shower and change before heading to my desk. Bargain for under £100 return.

I've seen someone get a nudge on the approach to Watford in the seats.

Ah this is good to know. I plan on waking up quite a bit before 0530 but I don't really want to be getting up at 0430 just to account for it speeding off without letting me off.

 

[norbitonflyer]

I have a question about the CS at dropoff-only calling points.

When we went to Kingussie the staff knew we were getting off there and gave us a knock in good time before our arrival - later than expected as we were about 25 mins down. So presumably if you are running early they will adjust yiur wakeup accordingly too.

 

[zero]

If I was planning to get off at WFJ or Crewe I would probably wake at 0230 and not be able to get back to sleep as I'd worry about missing the stop - even knowing that I would be given a knock. Thus I wouldn't book such a trip in the first place.

 

[Statto]

I'd sooner go all the way to Euston & travel back to Watford Junction instead of getting off at Watford Junction (ok i'd need a seperate ticket, or contactless for Euston - Watford Junction leg), but at least that gives piece of mind not having to be awake early, & missing the stop, & if you are awake by the time you get to Watford Junction see if you can alight there & then, rather than going to Euston & back.

 

[47296lastduff]

When I did INV to CRE, I was asked to confirm I was getting off at CRE, and was given a call before we we arrived.

 

[The Prisoner]

According to RTT the Fort William portion has just arrived there at 14:44, some 289 minutes late.

I was on the West Highland midland Pullman service yesterday https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:U60094/2025-08-20/detailed and was surprised to find ourselves in front of it due to the delay (not least as the MP had passed through Wigan on the positioning run from Crewe to Lancaster and was not badly impacted).

We passed through Dalmuir at 0852 (9 early) with the Fort William sleeper portion calling at 0908 some 187 minutes late.

We then had long stops at Arrochar (10 minutes), Crianlarich (24) and Rannoch (33) - all of which were broadly timetabled to pass other services.

With the sleeper behind us it lost a further 102 minutes arriving at 1444 (289 late overall), whilst our service arrived into FW slightly early.

Personally I would have thought bringing the sleeper past us would have been a priority as it could have taken our slot and saved those 100 minutes, but then I realised that there was no way of getting past - the midland pullman was 9 coaches plus 2 power cars and the rear fouled the points everywhere we stopped.

What is the protocol? Should fare paying services be prioritised over charters (which may have been possible before Helensburgh or with a process of moving beyond the token board to let the sleeper in and then moving back to let it out of the other end, complicated tho that may sound!)

 

[glenbogle]

I'd sooner go all the way to Euston & travel back to Watford Junction instead of getting off at Watford Junction (ok i'd need a seperate ticket, or contactless for Euston - Watford Junction leg), but at least that gives piece of mind not having to be awake early, & missing the stop, & if you are awake by the time you get to Watford Junction see if you can alight there & then, rather than going to Euston & back.

Sleeper does not stop at Watford Junction.

 

[styles]

Sleeper does not stop at Watford Junction.

It does, on the lowlander services from Edinburgh and Glasgow.

Timetable Detail

View all timetables for Caledonian Sleeper services for routes between London and Aberdeen, Edinburgh, Glasgow, Inverness and Fort William.

www.sleeper.scot

It is pickup only going north and dropoff only going south.

I was considering it for a client recently where the client was based in Milton Keynes. In the end I decided I didn't fancy the client's work.

 

[glenbogle]

It does, on the lowlander services from Edinburgh and Glasgow.

Timetable Detail

View all timetables for Caledonian Sleeper services for routes between London and Aberdeen, Edinburgh, Glasgow, Inverness and Fort William.

www.sleeper.scot

It is pickup only going north and dropoff only going south.

I was considering it for a client recently where the client was based in Milton Keynes. In the end I decided I didn't fancy the client's work.

It does, on the lowlander services from Edinburgh and Glasgow.

Timetable Detail

View all timetables for Caledonian Sleeper services for routes between London and Aberdeen, Edinburgh, Glasgow, Inverness and Fort William.

www.sleeper.scot

It is pickup only going north and dropoff only going south.

I was considering it for a client recently where the client was based in Milton Keynes. In the end I decided I didn't fancy the client's work.

Apologies, I’m only ever on the Highland sleeper!

 

[styles]

Apologies, I’m only ever on the Highland sleeper!

I was the same until fairly recently and I'd turned down a few gigs MK/Bletchley way then one day noticed the lowlander timetable had the additional stop!

 

[BRX]

I was on the West Highland midland Pullman service yesterday https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:U60094/2025-08-20/detailed and was surprised to find ourselves in front of it due to the delay (not least as the MP had passed through Wigan on the positioning run from Crewe to Lancaster and was not badly impacted).

We passed through Dalmuir at 0852 (9 early) with the Fort William sleeper portion calling at 0908 some 187 minutes late.

We then had long stops at Arrochar (10 minutes), Crianlarich (24) and Rannoch (33) - all of which were broadly timetabled to pass other services.

With the sleeper behind us it lost a further 102 minutes arriving at 1444 (289 late overall), whilst our service arrived into FW slightly early.

Personally I would have thought bringing the sleeper past us would have been a priority as it could have taken our slot and saved those 100 minutes, but then I realised that there was no way of getting past - the midland pullman was 9 coaches plus 2 power cars and the rear fouled the points everywhere we stopped.

What is the protocol? Should fare paying services be prioritised over charters (which may have been possible before Helensburgh or with a process of moving beyond the token board to let the sleeper in and then moving back to let it out of the other end, complicated tho that may sound!)

Does sound a bit like some priorities are wrong there! What would have been the consequences if the MP had been similarly delayed?

 

[The Prisoner]

Does sound a bit like some priorities are wrong there! What would have been the consequences if the MP had been similarly delayed?

There was around a 90 minute turn around for the MP to head back south again, so of course it would have meant virtually no time to explore the "delights" of Fort William, but there was slack in the timetable coming back (not least waiting for 5 minutes coming on to the suburban network after Helensburgh Upper whilst a local stopped heading to Edinburgh came and went on the adjacent line at Craigendoran, which we crawled after for 30 minutes as it stopped everywhere).

I came to the conclusion that the knitting together of pathing in the token areas and lack of full length passing/overtaking on the West Highland Line had a big part in further delaying the sleeper (which sat Bridge of Orchy for one hour waiting to be passed by a Scotrail service which was on time - I'm guessing it could have made it to Rannoch if we were not occupying the line ahead), but still feel the sleeper should have been prioritised? Is there a protocol?

 

[GordonT]

I'm guessing it could have made it to Rannoch if we were not occupying the line ahead), but still feel the sleeper should have been prioritised? Is there a protocol?

Not that it would have been a particularly relevant criteria but out of curiosity, in broad brush terms what sort of passenger numbers would have been on the sleeper in comparison to the charter?

 

[The Prisoner]

Not that it would have been a particularly relevant criteria but out of curiosity, in broad brush terms what sort of passenger numbers would have been on the sleeper in comparison to the charter?

The MP was sold out. Having done the sleeper at this time of the year I would imagine the berths would have had a decent occupancy, but the seats would be quiet.

 

[styles]

The MP was sold out. Having done the sleeper at this time of the year I would imagine the berths would have had a decent occupancy, but the seats would be quiet.

My experience this time of year with the new rolling stock is it would be completely sold out, or near enough, seats included.

 

[BRX]

My experience this time of year with the new rolling stock is it would be completely sold out, or near enough, seats included.

yup

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 21 Aug 2025 ==

Not that it would have been a particularly relevant criteria but out of curiosity, in broad brush terms what sort of passenger numbers would have been on the sleeper in comparison to the charter?

A more relevant/interesting question might be what each operator was paying in track access charges for their path. And what compensation would have to be paid out to passengers on each service, as a result of a delay.

Once the sleeper is 1hr late, any further increases in lateness would have no effect on the amount of compensation paid to passengers.

 

[GordonT]

A more relevant/interesting question might be what each operator was paying in track access charges for their path. And what compensation would have to be paid out to passengers on each service, as a result of a delay.

Yes - good points.

 

[InOban]

And any delay to the Scotrail service would be a real problem because it joins an Oban train at Crianlarich and FW drivers don't sign south of Crianlarich.

 

[Falcon1200]

A more relevant/interesting question might be what each operator was paying in track access charges for their path. And what compensation would have to be paid out to passengers on each service, as a result of a delay.

Neither factor would have the slightest bearing on how Network Rail decided to regulate trains. On the West Highland Line, and other similar routes, once trains are running out of course, and especially when there is additional traffic over and above the normal service, delay and disruption is inevitable, no matter what is done.

 

[ajrm]

I have wondered the same. It may be that they can identify when there no passengers due to get off at a given stop and therefore ignore the booked times on those nights?

In my experience the northbound Highlander is quite slackly timed north of Edinburgh and often arrives at Dundee early. All very well if you get your wake-up call, but on my two most recent journeys the wake-up call has failed to appear. In the second case I had a lucky escape because I'd been woken up at Waverley and saw that we were running 30 late, but we were sent through Fife rather than the (current) booked route via Stirling and we made up all the time. Fortunately I woke up of my own accord and realised where we were in the nick of time...

 

[ruaival]

Back in the day (First ScotRail sleepers) booked to alight at an intermediate station from the northbound Highlander always resulted in the steward making sure compartment passenger was awake 30 mins before actual ETA and then almost 'escorted' to the carriage door on arrival at e.g. Pitlochry so that departure was shortly after arrival.

 

[styles]

In my experience the northbound Highlander is quite slackly timed north of Edinburgh and often arrives at Dundee early. All very well if you get your wake-up call, but on my two most recent journeys the wake-up call has failed to appear. In the second case I had a lucky escape because I'd been woken up at Waverley and saw that we were running 30 late, but we were sent through Fife rather than the (current) booked route via Stirling and we made up all the time. Fortunately I woke up of my own accord and realised where we were in the nick of time...

Yikes!

This is the kind of thing I've wondered about.

I'm an early riser so when I was heading north from London I'd be awake anyway. But even for me, 0530 at Crewe is fine, but I don't much handy getting up at 5am just to avoid a potential pass, but guess I may have to.

 

[RGM654]

The northbound Highlander used to pick up at Watford Jn. I several times took a friend (now deceased) there to catch the sleeper to Fort William on her way to her home on Skye. The pattern of which trains (sleepers and day trains) pick up at Watford Jn and which don't has changed from time to time over the years, never with very evident logic.

 

[williamn]

I see the Southbound Lowlander was cancelled on Weds. Seems to be a reliability low point at the moment.