londonteacher
Member
Thread split from https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/arriva-beds-bucks-herts.259763/page-18#post-7432056
A thread for the discussion of Z&S and their possible expansion.
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Z&S Transport (Milton Keynes) Discussion Thread
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A thread for the discussion of Z&S and their possible expansion.
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Bedford OB
Member
They have had already had routes at Milton Keynes for some years, it is nothing new for them to be there.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Far fewer now, but that's more because the tendered routes are largely gone in "favour" of the execrable MK Connect.
I don't personally welcome them back - the "Aylesbury triad" (OK, "Red Group" and Z&S) are not exactly bastions of service quality. Mind you neither is Arriva, such a shame Stagecoach had to sell up on competition grounds otherwise things could be very different indeed.
londonteacher
Member
Maybe Go-Ahead would consider it? They are not too far away already.
I can remember travelling on Z&S when they used to run the service to Northampton, and I was not pleased.
I can remember travelling on Z&S when they used to run the service to Northampton, and I was not pleased.
Voyager 2953
Member
Z & S are improving their services and looking to expand their network. A new look website is the first of these improvements.
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Go ahead have looked at one of the Red Group companies in the past but nothing has come from it so far.
On the topic of Red Group, what are there different companies?
Voyager 2953
Member
Redline, Red Rose and Red Eagle.
Bedford OB
Member
Red Rose, Red Eagle, Redline. I hope greedy grasping Go Ahead don't get any of them. Perhaps one should sometimes be careful what one wishes for. Round here Go Ahead flaunt TfL standards shamelessly but the hapless TfL do nothing about it. Further out, their East Anglian operation is abysmal. They have always been quick to grab more work off anybody they can, then, for example, some folks I know living on what are effectively lifeline services to smaller places, find their buses cancelled because they need to cover the school services.
Thank you! and Z&S is part of that too?
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I did once wonder as i've heard GEA is a heavy loss maker, why they don't do a First and sell it on like First did with Scotland East, maybe First might be interested and might do better?
Yes, albeit somewhat loosely (same goes for Star Travel and Vale Travel). I don't think they accept the Red Group zone tickets valid on "Red[OpCo]" routes.
Just had a read up on the "Red Family" and it seams there all owned/run by give or take different people in the same family?
I mean if they don't wish to sell to a "big group" surly it makes better sense to combine all of them into one group "Red Bus Company" maybe, it surly would allow better fleet use if one needed a bus and one didn't it could move without looking weird and with them all working in a similar area, the finances would be better for them all?
Voyager 2953
Member
Z&S have nothing to do with the Red Group. There was a time of brief affiliation if you want to put it that way but they are very much separate.
Indeed I recall that one of the Reds did go into competition with Z&S for a while
Hard to say, really - presume it works for them as it stands.
There may be some advantages in company law / tax to being three small companies rather than one big one (I'm not expert enough to know) and presume they can informally take advantages of working together for bulk buying and that sort of thing, and they already share premises so presume some workshop equipment and the like is shared. I don't know their operations well enough to know if they have a few 'generic' buses that can be loaned from one to another if needed.
I don't know how easy it would be to run as a co-operative model, as in one outward identity but multiple legal operators - I'm aware there were a few like this in the more distant past, A1 in Ayrshire for example. Although I think that before the 1985 Transport Act, the (equivalent of) a service registration could be held by multiple operators, with them taking turns to run different journeys on different days, and I'm not sure that would be possible now.
And with no detailed knowledge of their operations, so no reflection on them at all, and I've never noticed them featuring in the 'legal and licensing' bit of the trade press, but there can be less risk of enforcement action if you have multiple small operations on different o-licences. I can think of one operator who may or may not still be in business who seemed to be quite a regular at the traffic commissioner's a few years ago, and they had a few o-licences revoked, but there were enough other o-licences for (legally) separate businesses within the family to mean it didn't really seem to affect them.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
I understand from someone who has worked with those companies that there are often family feuds between Z&S and Red Group, so it's a bit more than competition!
markymark2000
On Moderation
There is an ongoing bus war in Aylesbury between the two firms on the K1 service.
Voyager 2953
Member
One is run commercially and the other is under contract to the Kingsbrook development.
https://media.buckinghamshire.gov.uk/documents/SR1_ZS_Transport_September_2025.pdf they've also now registered a competing service to Fairford Leys
Can't imagine that either of these areas are especially strong bus territory !
Can't imagine that either of these areas are especially strong bus territory !
Flange Squeal
Established Member
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I can't imagine Red Rose are too worried given Z&S' four hour gap in the middle of the day!
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
That's a very odd service for Z&S, their classic was more to do 10am-3pm "out for lunch" shopper services to use buses and drivers doing nothing between two contract school runs which classically were their bread and butter. That service is the total opposite. Have they lost a school tender and are wondering what to do with the bus?
They have also been running a similar odd timetable on the 4 (I saw one literally neck and neck with a Redline 4 yesterday!) but have now filed to withdraw the SR1 and the 4. So that didn't last long
Quite a few improvements on evening and Sunday services in the Aylesbury area which various operators have picked up. Be interesting to see how long they stick around once the money runs out...
Quite a few improvements on evening and Sunday services in the Aylesbury area which various operators have picked up. Be interesting to see how long they stick around once the money runs out...
Voyager 2953
Member
I think they’ve withdrawn the services as Red Group have received some BSIP money to run the enhanced Aylesbury services.
telstarbox
Established Member
Do you know what is the latest on these two routes? They both seem to serve the same corridor.
markymark2000
On Moderation
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Voyager 2953
Member
The short form is Red Group have secured some funding from Bucks Council to run enhanced services in the area (K2 being one of them) and have in turn ousted Z&S. The Red Rose service has been timetabled in such way; they take the bulk of the passengers in the rush hours, making the Z&S service unsustainable.
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