Apparent “intentional ticket fraud”

[RCasper]

I’m unsure quite what to do, back in january a ticket officer took a look at my ticket and asked for my railcard, to which i stated i don’t have one and never have, he of course does his job and writes up a report. Somehow my trainline app was having me pay railcard prices and I didn’t realise, would never do this on purpose. come to today when i receive a letter from cross country stating that i owe £803.80, £300 of which is settlement. I feel overwhelmed as i never knew i was paying railcard prices and no other ticket officer before this one had said anything about it despite it being their job to check railcards. I can’t pay that much out as my partner and i are on just his income due to me being out of work from having a baby in december. Any advice of what to do? I contacted the advisor who claimed it doesn’t matter whether it was intentional or not but did give me an email to discuss matters further. but do i just go to court about it and settle it at court? please help as this has made me extremely stressed and anxious

 

[AlterEgo]

Have you ever held a railcard? What railcard discount have you been claiming?

 

[simonw]

I’m unsure quite what to do, back in january a ticket officer took a look at my ticket and asked for my railcard, to which i stated i don’t have one and never have, he of course does his job and writes up a report. Somehow my trainline app was having me pay railcard prices and I didn’t realise, would never do this on purpose. come to today when i receive a letter from cross country stating that i owe £803.80, £300 of which is settlement. I feel overwhelmed as i never knew i was paying railcard prices and no other ticket officer before this one had said anything about it despite it being their job to check railcards. I can’t pay that much out as my partner and i are on just his income due to me being out of work from having a baby in december. Any advice of what to do? I contacted the advisor who claimed it doesn’t matter whether it was intentional or not but did give me an email to discuss matters further. but do i just go to court about it and settle it at court? please help as this has made me extremely stressed and anxious

Could you post a copy of the letter you received, with all identifying information removed.

 

[thecrofter]

Never used the Trainline app but I've read a few instances on here where it is claimed that it appears to default to the user having one. If so, then Trainline need to be informed and change it surely?

 

[RCasper]

Have you ever held a railcard? What railcard discount have you been claiming?

i’ve never had one, i’m not sure if somehow someone had access to my account that i don’t remember who got one but i myself havent

 

[soccermad]

It seems to be that once you use Trainline with a Railcard discount, it continues to assume you have a Railcard and apply the discount regardless of if you have a valid card

The Mainline app really should be written in a way that a Railcard discount can only be claimed with a valid proof of a Railcard being held ?

 

[Towers]

Not the first to fall foul of this, unlikely to be the last. Sadly, it’s unlikely that you’ll be able to do much other than pay up and chalk it up as a - very expensive - ‘one of those things’ moments. The tickets will indicate that they have a Railcard discount and, if you look for it, the app will indicate it somewhere also. Not much consolation when you’ve been unknowingly caught out I know, but that’ll be the answer from the Prosecutions Department.

You say they’re asking for just north of £800, only £300 of which is settlement - are they wanting £500 out of you as an admin fee?

Going to Court is generally the least preferred option, you might find it beneficial in your circumstances to engage positively with the Train Operator and see if they might minimise their administrative exepnses if you’re contrite about it being your mistake; unfortunately they’ll be wanting a substantial from you though regardless, sadly.

 

[RCasper]

Could you post a copy of the letter you received, with all identifying information removed.

Not the first to fall foul of this, unlikely to be the last. Sadly, it’s unlikely that you’ll be able to do much other than pay up and chalk it up as a - very expensive - ‘one of those things’ moments. The tickets will indicate that they have a Railcard discount and, if you look for it, the app will indicate it somewhere also. Not much consolation when you’ve been unknowingly caught out I know, but that’ll be the answer from the Prosecutions Department.

You say they’re asking for just north of £800, only £300 of which is settlement - are they wanting £500 out of you as an admin fee?

nowhere on the receipts or whatever state railcard was used and i’ve searched all of them. The £500 is apparently the fairs avoided which is a lot of money imo

 

[Towers]

Ah

nowhere on the receipts or whatever state railcard was used and i’ve searched all of them. The £500 is apparently the fairs avoided which is a lot of money imo

Ah, okay - that makes more sense; the £500 is the fare owed and the £300 are the admin fees.

Receipts won’t state, but if you have any of the tickets still available you’ll see that it’s written there. Ultimately it’s irrelavent though at this stage as the offence has been committed now, the amount owed is what it is. Your best course of action here may be to reply with an apology, accepting the mistake was inadvertently made and enquiring as to whether there might be any movement on the fee element given your circumstances. Again, though, it must be stressed that this is not likely. Others here will more than likely be happy to proof read your letters and give more exacting guidance.

 

[Honestviews]

The Mainline app really should be written in a way that a Railcard discount can only be claimed with a valid proof of a Railcard being held ?

This comes up regularly on the forum. There are a number of reasons why, at the time of purchase, you might not have the railcard.

You can be buying your ticket ahead of time so it is sorted but buying or renewing your Railcard at the last minute so you get the most from it.

You might be buying a ticket for someone else who has a railcard (I've done this quite a few times for a friend who prefers paper tickets and I work near the railway station).

So requiring proof isn't helpful in those suitations.

 

[Towers]

I’d also add - not to cause fear, but merely because it’s important to fully appreciate the situation - repeated use of Railcard discounted tickets may in the worst cases constitute a fraud prosecution, and any court appearance will be on the basis of a prosecution of one kind or another. It is best avoided if at all possible; settling with the train company, although expensive, would be preferable to paying the court following a conviction.

 

[Hadders]

It is highly unlikely that a fraud prosecution will result from a case like this.

 

[WesternLancer]

I’m unsure quite what to do, back in january a ticket officer took a look at my ticket and asked for my railcard, to which i stated i don’t have one and never have, he of course does his job and writes up a report. Somehow my trainline app was having me pay railcard prices and I didn’t realise, would never do this on purpose. come to today when i receive a letter from cross country stating that i owe £803.80, £300 of which is settlement. I feel overwhelmed as i never knew i was paying railcard prices and no other ticket officer before this one had said anything about it despite it being their job to check railcards. I can’t pay that much out as my partner and i are on just his income due to me being out of work from having a baby in december. Any advice of what to do? I contacted the advisor who claimed it doesn’t matter whether it was intentional or not but did give me an email to discuss matters further. but do i just go to court about it and settle it at court? please help as this has made me extremely stressed and anxious

I don't want to sound unsympathetic but somewhere on your tickets it will have stated that a railcard discount was applied
But that is water under the bridge.

Advice here would be to avoid letting this go to court because that will likely cost you even more and and will result in a criminal record against your name too - which most people want to avoid.

The problem here is that the Rail companies do not usually allow people to pay these sums in instalments (they are not debt collectors as it were) so they do not usually offer payment plans, but you could ask I suppose.

An alternative might be to see if you can ask trusted friends or family for the money and pay them back in instillments. Not always easy to do I know.

They regard tickets discounted with the railcard reduction (usually a third off the fare) when you do not actually have the Railcard as an invalid ticket and then they usually charge the full price for a replacement ticket at the full Anytime fare (this is a punitively expensive fare that can be used in the peak periods, even if you did not travel at that time) - this is because they want people to buy the correct ticket every time.

As a practical step - have you checked through your ticket buying records / app to see the list of tickets, how many were discounted with the Railcard - you should be able to access this information I believe on your account.

You can also politely ask the railway company for a breakdown of the tickets they believe you have used with the wrong discount so that you can check this against your own records (they do sometimes make mistakes)

The one thing you should know about if it went to court is however that you can py the court fine and costs etc in installments by agreemnt with the court, and the court fine levid (the punsihment fo rthis offence even iif it was unintnetional), and the fine is related to your income if you complete the necessary court paperwork

But court should be your last resort - if it gets to that people here will advise you on what to expected how to prepare for it.

In the mean time ask any questions about this you need to - people here will be happy to help with advice.

 

[Towers]

It is highly unlikely that a fraud prosecution will result from a case like this.

It is, but it’s important that those concerned do appreciate the potential outcomes and the severity of ending up in court, I always think. Far too many folk still think that ‘train ticket stuff’ is a trivial matter and have little grasp of the gravity of mishandling their predicament - indeed, the OP here talks about ‘just settling it in court’, which would for most people be poor advice.

Alas, as you say, fraud is very unlikely - albeit not impossible - here.

 

[Bungle158]

It is, but it’s important that those concerned do appreciate the potential outcomes and the severity of ending up in court, I always think. Far too many folk still think that ‘train ticket stuff’ is a trivial matter and have little grasp of the gravity of mishandling their predicament - indeed, the OP here talks about ‘just settling it in court’, which would for most people be poor advice.

Alas, as you say, fraud is very unlikely - albeit not impossible - here.

There is a significant minority who already have brushes with the law under their belts, and to whom court proceedings are far less intimidating than say for a student with no criminal history.

 

[The exile]

This comes up regularly on the forum. There are a number of reasons why, at the time of purchase, you might not have the railcard.

You can be buying your ticket ahead of time so it is sorted but buying or renewing your Railcard at the last minute so you get the most from it.

You might be buying a ticket for someone else who has a railcard (I've done this quite a few times for a friend who prefers paper tickets and I work near the railway station).

So requiring proof isn't helpful in those suitations.

No reason why it shouldn’t give you a pop up requiring you to confirm you’ve understood that a valid “xyz” railcard must be shown with the ticket when travelling.

 

[Towers]

There is a significant minority who already have brushes with the law under their belts, and to whom court proceedings are far less intimidating than say for a student with no criminal history.

Well quite, but I don’t think that’s the case for the OP in this instance!

 

[Egg Centric]

There is a significant minority who already have brushes with the law under their belts, and to whom court proceedings are far less intimidating than say for a student with no criminal history.

Which is one of the subtle corrosive effects on society this mass criminalisation for petty nonsense has - once you've been through one court proceeding the deterrence value of others is bigly diminished.

 

[Bungle158]

More a reply to your quite generalised post. No insinuation against the OP intended and apologies if it was viewed as such

Well quite, but I don’t think that’s the case for the OP in this instance

 

[guilbert]

Is the fact it was in January (and therefore > 6 months ago) not a fairly important detail..?

 

[fandroid]

Is the fact it was in January (and therefore > 6 months ago) not a fairly important detail..?

This might mean that a pushback on that fairly high admin fee of £300 could bear results. If the OP shows willing to engage in the process, but wants to negotiate that figure down to say £100, the TOC might play ball.

Which Train company is it, btw?

 

[AlterEgo]

This might mean that a pushback on that fairly high admin fee of £300 could bear results. If the OP shows willing to engage in the process, but wants to negotiate that figure down to say £100, the TOC might play ball.

Which Train company is it, btw?

If it goes to small claims, informed posters have pointed out elsewhere the company can barely claim any costs at all. They can also only claim their actual losses, which is the difference in fares. The train companies have wet dreams about charging Anytime Singles for each journey, but it's likely the case the court will find the loss suffered is, at most, the difference in fares given the discount. They can also go whistle for the £300 admin fee, an invented and frankly hilarious sum way beyond their actual costs (work done: sending email to retailer, and making a spreadsheet). It must be CrossCountry because they are the only people seemingly employing someone who comes to work in a gold suit to send their emails; we've seen them barefacedly asking for £300 before.

Make no offer, make no reply, and let it go to small claims if they can really be arsed. Have the money ready to pay in full if you lose. This is a low risk option which doesn't involve prostrating yourself at the feet of a feckless company which took eight months to sort its admin out.