EMR intercity - As bad as xc?

[WesternLancer]

The 810's were ordered pre-covid.

Inadequate since the order then imho.

Thanks for reminder though.

 

[QSK19]

It seems to me that when they ordered the new inter city fleet they had decided that travel levels would be at covid levels for the foreseeable future and beyond.

It’s regularly completely over crowded so there’s no plan or scope for growth. Passengers will need pricing off.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 19 Aug 2025 ==

Don't give the DfT any ideas

Yep, we know who to blame now at the next fare increase

 

[eastwestdivide]

Just a reminder on the capacity increase coming down the (very long) pipeline:

For standard class, whole-fleet capacity back of an envelope calculations…
222: from Eversholt’s site, 190x23 units and 232x4 units = 5298 std class seats
810: from wikipedia, 254x33 units = 8382 std class seats

 

[WesternLancer]

Just a reminder on the capacity increase coming down the (very long) pipeline:

For standard class, whole-fleet capacity back of an envelope calculations…
222: from Eversholt’s site, 190x23 units and 232x4 units = 5298 std class seats
810: from wikipedia, 254x33 units = 8382 std class seats

Yes, the point gets regularly made here and this is not unhelpful - but it's not the whole fleet capacity that is the issue - it's the capacity on the train you are on that matters of course - and IMHO at many times the capacity will be inadequate from the start

And I suspect some of the capacity has been achieved by more cramped seating etc then the trains historically replaced (not least the HSTs)

But I'll happily stand corrected if when the new fleet is eventually in service I am travelling on more spacious uncrowded trains on the MML...

 

[eastwestdivide]

Well exactly, but the capacity will be there, and at the moment anything else is guesswork!
I’ll just be happy if I can fit more than a pencil case into the overhead racks

 

[dosxuk]

Just a reminder on the capacity increase coming down the (very long) pipeline:

For standard class, whole-fleet capacity back of an envelope calculations…
222: from Eversholt’s site, 190x23 units and 232x4 units = 5298 std class seats
810: from wikipedia, 254x33 units = 8382 std class seats

Yes - there will be more seats than there currently is. But once you compare the pre-HST disposal capacity with the 810 capacity - it doesn't come out anywhere near as favourable.

The 360's effectively replaced the 4 four car 222, which were primarily brought in for, and used on, the Corby services - they had 132 standard/33 first seats: 165 per train, 660 seats total in fleet.

If we knock those off your total for the 222's to discount them being replaced by the 360's, we get 6274 seats on the remaining (original) 222 fleet. Then there were the 9 sets of HSTs with 468 seats each, for a total of 3744 seats in the HST fleet - and a grand total of 10,018 seats across the 222/HST fleets.

Suddenly that 9933 seats doesn't seem like such a big increase does it?

Sure, some of the capacity provided by the 360's will replace that provided by the HST's - but as pointed out in that thread, the 360's don't make many trips to the East Midlands like the HST's did. Also worth remembering those numbers for when people point out "oh, but the 360's released the 222's which let the HST's be released in turn" - so 4x 165 seat trains allowed 9x 468 seat trains to be released?

 

[LowLevel]

The main losers of the change were the East Midlands commuters in the Leicester/Derby/Nottingham area where this demand has for many years been centred on the Intercity services - gone are the 8 car HSTs and most of the 10 car 222s leaving crowded 5 car sets instead.

 

[STINT47]

I fear the extra capacity will soon be used up. I currently make less trips to London compared to 10 years ago due to the overcrowding.

Once the new trains arrive I might increase my journeys again. If other have the same thought then there goes the extra seats and your back to overcrowding.

 

[WesternLancer]

I fear the extra capacity will soon be used up. I currently make less trips to London compared to 10 years ago due to the overcrowding.

Once the new trains arrive I might increase my journeys again. If other have the same thought then there goes the extra seats and your back to overcrowding.

Agreed

anecdotally I know people who complain the existing trains are so scruffy they don't like using them - that must depress demand from people who have choice or have choice not to travel (leisure market? and that is the market likely to expand I would think - not for example long distance commuters)
New trains almost always seem to boost demand as many people appreciate what they see as the generally improved product. But UK rarely seems to plan for a run on order to strengthen fleet as that market demand increases on new fleet roll outs.
XC's voyager fleet introduction must have been an example of that at the time

 

[bramling]

I fear the extra capacity will soon be used up. I currently make less trips to London compared to 10 years ago due to the overcrowding.

Once the new trains arrive I might increase my journeys again. If other have the same thought then there goes the extra seats and your back to overcrowding.

Agreed

The trouble with making comparisons with HST days is it isn’t quite the same service operating now.

For sure the HST fleet has essentially been replaced by the 360s, but these are primarily catering for journeys at the London end, and specifically for Wellingborough and Kettering. There’s presumably quite a bit of fresh air being carried at the northern end of the Corby route, so they won’t be being filled as effectively as Sheffield or Nottingham services would have been. Likewise there will presumably have to been some abstraction from Thameslink at Bedford, Luton and Luton Airport, so some of the 360 seats will be being filled with “new” passengers, rather than freeing up seats on longer-distance services. One could also make the point that some of the 360 capacity will be catering from new demand arising from the substantial amounts of housebuilding in Bedfordshire and Northamptonshire that’s happened over recent years, so again is catering for “new” demand.

I’d say the problem has been for some while that 5-car trains aren’t really long enough for Sheffield and Nottingham services, and the choice of 5 or 10 cars seems a bit binary given that the cost and opportunity cost of strengthening a service from 5 to 10 cars is clearly quite high.

If the route was fully electrified, one wonders if a service of 350/1-type units running in 8 and 12 car formations would provide a better match. Though then we’d probable be reading complaints about 1/3 2/3 door positions.

As for the original question, yes I’d say EMR Intercity has certainly taken on elements of XC. The short trains and persistent overcrowding being the significant issue. It’s been going on for some time, but has certainly got worse. I’d say the turning point was when HSTs got taken off the Sheffield services and we started to see regular 5-car working on the route.

 

[Bletchleyite]

If the route was fully electrified, one wonders if a service of 350/1-type units running in 8 and 12 car formations would provide a better match. Though then we’d probable be reading complaints about 1/3 2/3 door positions.

Replied here:

Rolling stock - what if the MML had been electrified?

If the route was fully electrified, one wonders if a service of 350/1-type units running in 8 and 12 car formations would provide a better match. Though then we’d probable be reading complaints about 1/3 2/3 door positions. With a row or two removed from each coach (as they are very high...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[edwin_m]

Sure, some of the capacity provided by the 360's will replace that provided by the HST's - but as pointed out in that thread, the 360's don't make many trips to the East Midlands like the HST's did. Also worth remembering those numbers for when people point out "oh, but the 360's released the 222's which let the HST's be released in turn" - so 4x 165 seat trains allowed 9x 468 seat trains to be released?

They also relieved the 222s by taking the passengers who would otherwise have used them to and from Wellingborough, Bedford and the Luton stations.

 

[Yew]

They also relieved the 222s by taking the passengers who would otherwise have used them to and from Wellingborough, Bedford and the Luton stations.

That timetable change has inconvenienced travellers from the East Midlands proper though, as now changes are necessary to get to Luton Airport, so I'd hesitate to call that an improvement?

 

[43066]

That timetable change has inconvenienced travellers from the East Midlands proper though, as now changes are necessary to get to Luton Airport, so I'd hesitate to call that an improvement?

But there are now far better links from London to Luton airport in the forum of the new express. Which will impact more people.

 

[InTheEastMids]

That timetable change has inconvenienced travellers from the East Midlands proper though, as now changes are necessary to get to Luton Airport, so I'd hesitate to call that an improvement?

If you can't handle a change of trains at Kettering, you are probably ill-suited to flying anywhere, let alone from Luton. It's very straightforward.
(Yes, I know it's also a change at Leicester if you're coming that way).

 

[CaptainHaddock]

If you can't handle a change of trains at Kettering, you are probably ill-suited to flying anywhere, let alone from Luton. It's very straightforward.
(Yes, I know it's also a change at Leicester if you're coming that way).

Yes, great idea. If a family's travelling from say Sheffield to Luton Airport with lots of luggage for their summer holiday let's make them change onto ever-busier trains at Leicester and Kettering!

Why do some on here seem to think travelling by rail should be some kind of obstacle course and that only those who complete it should be allowed to travel?

 

[Travelmonkey]

EMR is overcapacity across the board, the meridians and turbostars are definitely not the best and then they claim they "strengthen services" I'd hardly call being left on the platform recently as leaving them in a good light. The staff try their best mind but the working conditions are dire and with the 222s going without propper replacement its gonna be a Rob Peter to pay Paul situation where the regionals get further gutted to plug MML gaps.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 19 Aug 2025 ==

Yes, great idea. If a family's travelling from say Sheffield to Luton Airport with lots of luggage for their summer holiday let's make them change onto ever-busier trains at Leicester and Kettering!

Why do some on here seem to think travelling by rail should be some kind of obstacle course and that only those who complete it should be allowed to travel?

Indeed even Gatwick manages to have the longer services call. Could you imagine if it all got placed on Gat Ex,

 

[LowLevel]

EMR is overcapacity across the board, the meridians and turbostars are definitely not the best and then they claim they "strengthen services" I'd hardly call being left on the platform recently as leaving them in a good light. The staff try their best mind but the working conditions are dire and with the 222s going without propper replacement its gonna be a Rob Peter to pay Paul situation where the regionals get further gutted to plug MML gaps.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 19 Aug 2025 ==


Indeed even Gatwick manages to have the longer services call. Could you imagine if it all got placed on Gat Ex,

The problem is the regional services are very much affected by spikes in leisure demand on multiple routes at once - it's never going to be possible to strengthen everything because you inevitably get multiple football matches, an MML block and Skegness in the summer all at once. It's not something you will ever totally mitigate.

 

[Travelmonkey]

Trying not to veer too off topic here but I feel like Northants locations have more in common with Home counties. The 'proper' East Midlands starts from Leicester northwards for me.

Northants is a identity crisis county, for trains & ambulance its East Midlands (well the MML at least) but water is anglia water, regardless you just have to see the oppinons of those in Wellingborough they feel short changed by the connect still paying intercity prices for commuter trains. I do wonder if EMR see Kettering as a operational inconvenience hence only calling the Nottinghams, it should rotate between a Sheffield & Nottingham. If you want Luton Airport you have to change twice living Long Eaton northwards.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 19 Aug 2025 ==

The problem is the regional services are very much affected by spikes in leisure demand on multiple routes at once - it's never going to be possible to strengthen everything because you inevitably get multiple football matches, an MML block and Skegness in the summer all at once. It's not something you will ever totally mitigate.

Probably one for another thread but as a wheelchair user having a train pull in I can't get on really does annoy me. Especially as I always try to pre book. Last time I took a 222 there was also abandoned luggage in the wheelchair bay that noone wanted to claim ownership too. I am not safe to drive and it's frustrating what should be a simple process turns so complicated.

 

[A S Leib]

Yes, great idea. If a family's travelling from say Sheffield to Luton Airport with lots of luggage for their summer holiday let's make them change onto ever-busier trains at Leicester and Kettering!

Why do some on here seem to think travelling by rail should be some kind of obstacle course and that only those who complete it should be allowed to travel?

It doesn't help that it's put the journey time up from ~1:00 to 1:15, although if you're aiming to be at the airport three hours early, that might not make a massive difference. It doesn't help that apart from Leicester etc. to Stansted and Grantham, Nottingham and Chesterfield to Liverpool South Parkway, nowhere in the East Midlands* has a direct airport service.

*Discounting Northampton – Birmingham International for being quite disconnected from Leicester / Derby / Nottingham by rail

 

[LowLevel]

Northants is a identity crisis county, for trains & ambulance its East Midlands (well the MML at least) but water is anglia water, regardless you just have to see the oppinons of those in Wellingborough they feel short changed by the connect still paying intercity prices for commuter trains. I do wonder if EMR see Kettering as a operational inconvenience hence only calling the Nottinghams, it should rotate between a Sheffield & Nottingham. If you want Luton Airport you have to change twice living Long Eaton northwards.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 19 Aug 2025 ==


Probably one for another thread but as a wheelchair user having a train pull in I can't get on really does annoy me. Especially as I always try to pre book. Last time I took a 222 there was also abandoned luggage in the wheelchair bay that noone wanted to claim ownership too. I am not safe to drive and it's frustrating what should be a simple process turns so complicated.

I get the frustration but there is never going to be enough trains to strengthen everything and the smaller stops will always suffer trains loading more heavily elsewhere. The likes of Market Rasen can never use their trains on a Saturday as even after being doubled in length they're still wedged full of drinkers heading for Lincoln leaving Grimsby.

 

[Travelmonkey]

It doesn't help that it's put the journey time up from ~1:00 to 1:15, although if you're aiming to be at the airport three hours early, that might not make a massive difference. It doesn't help that apart from Leicester etc. to Stansted and Grantham, Nottingham and Chesterfield to Liverpool South Parkway, nowhere in the East Midlands* has a direct airport service.

*Discounting Northampton – Birmingham International for being quite disconnected from Leicester / Derby / Nottingham by rail

Even the own airport station isn't connected to the airport, (East Midlands Parkway) despite on platform signage, you have to get a skylink bus from Derby/Nottingham or a my 15/Skylink from Long Eaton to get up to EMA,

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 19 Aug 2025 ==

I get the frustration but there is never going to be enough trains to strengthen everything and the smaller stops will always suffer trains loading more heavily elsewhere. The likes of Market Rasen can never use their trains on a Saturday as even after being doubled in length they're still wedged full of drinkers heading for Lincoln leaving Grimsby.

Derby-Stoke same issues. Then the guards say control have booked taxi for me as a MIP but nothing comes through. Delayed 2 hours due to lack of space. I know @Kieran_MF135 and I have both been caught out by the lack of capacity on the North Staffs. They did up it on Saturday Just gone thankfully with 158s & 170s running in multiple so a different wheelchair user could get to mine. But capacity is one of EMRs weaker points, the 180s binned with no replacement and they were the replacement for the HST sets and now the era of the 222 is coming to a end. The Aroura's still remain absent.

 

[Bald Rick]

That timetable change has inconvenienced travellers from the East Midlands proper though, as now changes are necessary to get to Luton Airport, so I'd hesitate to call that an improvement?

Without question it is a net improvement, and a big one. More seats for longer distance passengers from the East Mids and S Yorks to London, plus quicker journey times for them; offset by the loss of connectivity for the relatively few people in those areas who wanted to get to Luton Airport at a time when the trains were running.

Why do some on here seem to think travelling by rail should be some kind of obstacle course and that only those who complete it should be allowed to travel?

Equally, why do some seem to think that the railway should serve every possible market, even if that means fewer people travel overall?

 

[43066]

Yes, great idea. If a family's travelling from say Sheffield to Luton Airport with lots of luggage for their summer holiday let's make them change onto ever-busier trains at Leicester and Kettering!

And how many people do that? Why do you think EMR now carry more people than pre Covid? You’re, as usual, failing to look at the bigger picture.

Why do some on here seem to think travelling by rail should be some kind of obstacle course and that only those who complete it should be allowed to travel?

Nobody has said that, though. The only person who has suggested it is you.

 

[CaptainHaddock]

Northants is a identity crisis county, for trains & ambulance its East Midlands (well the MML at least) but water is anglia water, regardless you just have to see the oppinons of those in Wellingborough they feel short changed by the connect still paying intercity prices for commuter trains. I do wonder if EMR see Kettering as a operational inconvenience hence only calling the Nottinghams, it should rotate between a Sheffield & Nottingham. If you want Luton Airport you have to change twice living Long Eaton northwards.

It does seem that EMR are obsessed with the idea that everyone only wants to go to London and no one travels between intermediate stations.

Moderator note: discussion regarding potential EMR intercity service changes can be found at the following thread:

EMR intercity - potential timetable improvements?

Moderator note: split from https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/emr-intercity-as-bad-as-xc.290922/ Northants is a identity crisis county, for trains & ambulance its East Midlands (well the MML at least) but water is anglia water, regardless you just have to see the oppinons of those in...

www.railforums.co.uk

The suggestion to combine EMR IC with XC can be found at the link below:

Could EMR intercity and XC be combined?

Moderator note: Split from https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/emr-intercity-as-bad-as-xc.290922/ In the days of INTERCITY sectorisation, MML and XC were one Train Operating Unit. They were split into shadow TOCs for privatisation. Maybe adding intercity MML back to intercity XC services in...

www.railforums.co.uk

Discussion regarding people from the Sheffield area flying from Luton has been moved to:

Why do people from the Sheffield area fly from Luton?

Moderator note: Split from https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/emr-intercity-as-bad-as-xc.290922/ What's the obsession with people (families at that) supposedly wanting to travel over 100 miles from Sheffield to Luton Airport to catch a budget airline flight to somewhere that they could...

www.railforums.co.uk

For discussion regarding the possible extension of the LNER fares trial to the MML, please use:

Could Off Peak fares be abolished on the MML, to reduce overcrowding?

Moderator note: Split from https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/emr-intercity-as-bad-as-xc.290922 I can envision the 70 minute flex tickets being extended to EMR intercity to smooth out demand due to the new fleet being inadequate at busy tines.

www.railforums.co.uk