Incorrect Train Tracking - Annoyed of Deganwy!

[Bletchleyite]

In the meantime, a more honest "No Data" could be shown instead of 'delayed'.

"No information" would probably be best. Or just "On time" unless it is found to be otherwise i.e. the departure time passes without it being tracked and without a cancellation being entered.

To be fair there's a similar "secret code" on bus real time information - showing a timetabled time rather than a number of minutes means "bus not tracking" - why on earth they can't actually put that on there I will never understand.

"Delayed" should only really be used when the train's position is known AND it is not moving, not because of a lack of information - this is grossly misleading and is confusing the life out of the large number of tourists that use the line. Last time I was waiting at Betws for one I went round the platform explaining it to people and most of them found that helpful!

 

[zwk500]

Exactly this. I keep reading that accurate lat/long reporting isn't something the industry is that interested in though. They're happy with signalling berths. Personally I think they're missing a trick, as the travelling public has got used to apps like PlaneFinder, BusTimes etc, and there does seem to be a demand for live train maps. Or maybe that's just wishful thinking on my part

It's notable that most European railways have a actual-position map not a signal berth map. But you don't need lat/long accuracy to nearer than a few dozen meters to report station arrival and departure times. If the GPS is showing speed=0 after the booked departure time, the system should be able to automatically updated to 'delayed', and then once it moves replace it with '3 mins late' or whatever.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It's notable that most European railways have a actual-position map not a signal berth map. But you don't need lat/long accuracy to nearer than a few dozen meters to report station arrival and departure times. If the GPS is showing speed=0 after the booked departure time, the system should be able to automatically updated to 'delayed', and then once it moves replace it with '3 mins late' or whatever.

That's what it's actually doing, but the problem is that it also reports "delayed" if the system hasn't seen any report at all. It is then suddenly "on time" when Llandudno Jn panel sees it, confusing the life out of everyone.

In the short term it might be worth breaking the link in whatever part of the CIS it is that stores that between the incoming Conwy Valley services and what they go back out as, so it isn't having a cascade effect across multiple services, so at least the effect is constrained to the single service it's happening on. Plus add a "please note" to those services saying "Due to a system fault this train may incorrectly show as delayed, please disregard this unless an expected time is shown". At present those links (which are normally helpful) are resulting in services hours later on other routes* coming up as Delayed, which people these days may make plans around. It must be possible to do that because some TOCs don't automatically link incoming and outgoing terminating/starting services in the CIS, preferring to enter any delay manually based on the turnaround time etc.

* Particularly on a Sunday where the unit seems to swap between the early afternoon round trip and the late afternoon one, so the Delayed can in effect cross-pollinate to other services.

 

[RichardAsh1981]

Along with this goes the inability to take into account incoming working delays (or indeed complete cancellations). I travel home from work from Capenhurst, which is 9 minutes travelling time from Chester. All trains are timetabled from Chester, although there is only one suitable (electrified) platform and no depot or siding, so no spare trains. The timetable usually has a 4 minute turnaround time.

Nevertheless, the platform display at Capenhurst always shows trains more than 9 minutes in the future as being on time, regardless of whether the stock has arrived, is ready, or is actually still on its way to Chester! Then the predicted arrival time starts to roll back 1 minute at a time, always 9 minutes in the future, until one of a few things happens:
The train actually departs Chester, and the time starts to count down.
It gets cancelled.
The system times out and switches to showing "Delayed".
The train you came to catch is removed from the board and the next one (30 minutes later) becomes the next train.
None of which inspires confident regular rail use!

 

[PLY2AYS]

Arrived normally means the train has stepped into the platform berth, doesn't it?

In some cases and termini; it just means it has been signalled into the platform, rather that actually at the platform.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Along with this goes the inability to take into account incoming working delays (or indeed complete cancellations). I travel home from work from Capenhurst, which is 9 minutes travelling time from Chester. All trains are timetabled from Chester, although there is only one suitable (electrified) platform and no depot or siding, so no spare trains. The timetable usually has a 4 minute turnaround time.

Nevertheless, the platform display at Capenhurst always shows trains more than 9 minutes in the future as being on time, regardless of whether the stock has arrived, is ready, or is actually still on its way to Chester! Then the predicted arrival time starts to roll back 1 minute at a time, always 9 minutes in the future, until one of a few things happens:
The train actually departs Chester, and the time starts to count down.
It gets cancelled.
The system times out and switches to showing "Delayed".
The train you came to catch is removed from the board and the next one (30 minutes later) becomes the next train.
None of which inspires confident regular rail use!

That's the opposite problem, in fact. Merseyrail does not, if that is happening, appear to link the inbound and outbound services at Chester in the CIS.

So we need to unlink the Conwy Valley ones and link these!

 

[RichardAsh1981]

Posted before I read Bletchleyites last post, which is a complaint about the fact that the sort of link they are talking about doesn't exist for Merseyrail!

 

[Belperpete]

the travelling public has got used to apps like PlaneFinder, BusTimes etc, and there does seem to be a demand for live train maps.

Live train maps are of course available on a number of websites.

And anyone who uses the bus tracker app will know how flakey that can be in rural areas. I am not convinced that it is much better than the live rail departure boards.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Posted before I read Bletchleyites last post, which is a complaint about the fact that the sort of link they are talking about doesn't exist for Merseyrail!

It's very variable when it is and isn't. It usually isn't at Euston for example, generally delays there are done manually for the outbound, which often means they aren't done. They really should be linked for Merseyrail, though, and unlinked for the Valley until such time as they fix this issue properly! It would be a simple action that would stop the entire day's worth of Conwy Valley service showing as delayed for most of the day.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 19 Aug 2025 ==

And anyone who uses the bus tracker app will know how flakey that can be in rural areas. I am not convinced that it is much better than the live rail departure boards.

As I mentioned above buses have their own version of the same confusing nonsense, just showing the timetabled time if a bus isn't tracking rather than stating "not tracking, timetabled at xx:xx" which would be clearer.

 

[Belperpete]

In some cases and termini; it just means it has been signalled into the platform, rather that actually at the platform.

"Stepping into the platform berth" occurs when the nose of the train passes the signal reading into the platform. At that point, the train description steps from that signal's berth, to the platform berth. It may happen well before the train reaches the platform, if that signal is some way before the platform, and speed limits on trains approaching the platform.

Train descriptions tend to step ahead of the trains that they represent.

 

[RichardAsh1981]

And anyone who uses the bus tracker app will know how flakey that can be in rural areas. I am not convinced that it is much better than the live rail departure boards.

I had course to use a comparitively rural bus from Uppingham to Leicester recently (Rail Replacement Busses on Cross Country would have meant a longer bus journey to the same place). The tracking on bustimes.org was very good - much more helpful than Google Maps, where I started. Again, not enough turn around time to recover late running on the previous journey due to traffic congestion, but the map showed there was a vehicle on the way in the other direction, which duly passed on the other side of the road, turned round and picked me up. Google meanwhile just flipped from the advertised departure time to "departed" when it hadn't, which was worrying. Once on board, the live countdown of bus stops is very useful in unfamiliar territory however.

 

[PLY2AYS]

"Stepping into the platform berth" occurs when the nose of the train passes the signal reading into the platform. At that point, the train description steps from that signal's berth, to the platform berth. It may happen well before the train reaches the platform, if that signal is some way before the platform, and speed limits on trains approaching the platform.

Train descriptions tend to step ahead of the trains that they represent.

Yeah, my apologies, I missed out the most important part of that point; about the signal distance away from the platform.

But thanks for simplifying it down. It’s always nice to confirm what I thought!

 

[Deepgreen]

Lesson - don't always believe apps. Get to the station before the advertised departure time.

Sometimes trains regain lost time; apps only give predictions.

If the app was showing something that had (allegedly) happened (i.e. the inward working being late), then that wasn't a prediction - it was supposed to be fact. However, it's wise to check at least two apps before making these life-changing decisions! I usually use Traksy to check exactly where a working is, as well as RTT. Nothing, however, is perfect.

 

[Howardh]

Last Saturday from Bolton the train to Clitheroe was cancelled, and then re-instated and ran appx half-an-hour late. Not sure how many knew of the original cancellation and left or didn't attend the station, but those at the station were informed by the PA. If a pax read realtimetrains they probably saw "cancelled" and didn't attend the station until the next scheduled departure!

 

[The exile]

In some cases and termini; it just means it has been signalled into the platform, rather that actually at the platform.

Maybe - its use at Parkway seems to be very intermittent and when it is used for west/southbound trains it will show long before the train is even in sight. Its use seems potentially dangerous - encouraging people to hurry unnecessarily down the stairs to the platforms. The only justifications I can really see for its use (neither of which really applies at Parkway) are 1) on a purely “arrivals” board and 2) where a train has a long layover but can already be boarded.

 

[norbitonflyer]

It's notable that most European railways have a actual-position map not a signal berth map.

I have found OTT Maps very helpful in such circumstances. A train shown as x minutes late on both the departure screen and RTT is often shown on OTT as having been diverted by another route, meaning it won't be coming at all. (RTT will show it having left the junction station on time, but count the number of minutes late as the time it is overdue at the first omitted station on the original route. It can stay on the departures board for hours, although on RTT the omitted stations will show as "no report" if it regains its original route further down the line it will.

Not sure which is worse - showing a train as delayed when it will actually be on time, or showing it as delayed when its not going to turn up at all.

 

[saismee]

Maybe "unknown" would be a better description than "delayed" when it's still possible (as far as the system knows) for the service to turn up on time?

The first Harwich International to Cambridge service is permanently displayed as "Delayed" at Bury St Edmunds until it reaches Ipswich. Yes, it has been reported. No, it hasn't been fixed. There just doesn't seem to be enough care put in for some of these things and it's left to front line staff to explain it (and it's a lone member of staff at BSE).

 

[louis97]

Given that Llandudno Junction is worked by a panel, it's high time that its train describer fed berth data in automatically. Frodsham Junction now does.

The presence of a panel does not mean there is a train describer. Llandudno Junction doesn't have one. Frodsham Junction only got one because of the closure of Norton box and new fringe to Warrington PSB.

In the OPs case this is of TfWs own doing, they have recently set all locations to expect automatic reports. In most places this is no issue as GPS reports without issue, however in cases where a train isn't reporting by GPS or at certain locations where GPS does not report, you end up with these false "delayed" messages going out. Its all totally avoidable, if TfW had not applied this everywhere without checking the impact.

ADDED: I was actually at a station on the Marches in June which had a message on the info screens saying false delays are being reported and to check before you travel. Not sure how you are supposed to check, as all the other (official) means of checking use the same source data so will also show the same false delay. Clearly highlights a lack of knowledge internally at TfW on how all the systems are linked, although they are clearly aware of the issues of the false delays being reported.

 

[AlterEgo]

I have found OTT Maps very helpful in such circumstances. A train shown as x minutes late on both the departure screen and RTT is often shown on OTT as having been diverted by another route, meaning it won't be coming at all. (RTT will show it having left the junction station on time, but count the number of minutes late as the time it is overdue at the first omitted station on the original route. It can stay on the departures board for hours, although on RTT the omitted stations will show as "no report" if it regains its original route further down the line it will.

Not sure which is worse - showing a train as delayed when it will actually be on time, or showing it as delayed when its not going to turn up at all.

That can be very useful, but it wouldn't help in the OP's situation as the whole of North Wales is unmapped.

 

[John R]

A good example of where relying on predicted train arrival times when a train is delayed is risky exists at the stations north of Worle. Where a delayed northbound train skips the Weston loop, the predicted times won't allow for the time caught up until it gets to Worle Jn. And then all of a sudden the arrival time advances by between 10 and 15 minutes. Bad news if you haven't left enough time to get to the station, or simply don't keep checking.

 

[louis97]

That can be very useful, but it wouldn't help in the OP's situation as the whole of North Wales is unmapped.

Only West of Abergele and Pensarn, although that area isn't of use to the OP.

 

[Whisky Papa]

A few years ago, my wife and travelled from Machynlleth to Aberystwyth for a late afternoon / early evening meal and to visit a couple of pubs, after which we aimed to travel back at around 2040.

We arrived back at the station with six or seven minutes to spare to find the CIS showing it delayed by about 15 mins, and considered popping back into the adjacent Wetherspoons but - fortunately - resisted.

Having then checked RTT, I discovered the incoming service was running about 15 mins late which would actually mean it arrived around its scheduled departure time, which indeed it did.

I wondered if there was some technical reason it would still sit there for its scheduled 15 minute layover? Er, no, a quick change of ends and it was off, only around 5 minutes late and 10 minutes before the screens were still showing! I've no idea how many passengers missed it as a result of this.

 

[Krokodil]

It's notable that most European railways have a actual-position map not a signal berth map. But you don't need lat/long accuracy to nearer than a few dozen meters to report station arrival and departure times. If the GPS is showing speed=0 after the booked departure time, the system should be able to automatically updated to 'delayed', and then once it moves replace it with '3 mins late' or whatever.

Realtime Trains | 2D21 2027 Blaenau Ffestiniog to Llandudno | 18/08/2025

Real-time train running information for 2D21 2027 departure from Blaenau Ffestiniog to Llandudno on 18/08/2025. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

If you look at RTT for that train, you'll see that while the GPS was working fine at Blaenau, and from Betws onwards it wasn't working for the three request stops beforehand. So anyone who looked between 20:40 and when the train opened doors at Betws nearly 15 minutes later would have seen "delayed" on the boards anyway.

Edit: Have the Junction times been retrospectively added? I' m sure that they said "no report" last night.

It is then suddenly "on time" when Llandudno Jn panel sees it

Or not, if the signaller fails to input it. Both Llanrwst and Llandudno Junction signallers appear to have failed to enter times into TRUST.

I usually use Traksy to check exactly where a working is

No use in this area.

In the OPs case this is of TfWs own doing, they have recently set all locations to expect automatic reports. In most places this is no issue as GPS reports without issue, however in cases where a train isn't reporting by GPS or at certain locations where GPS does not report, you end up with these false "delayed" messages going out. Its all totally avoidable, if TfW had not applied this everywhere without checking the impact.

This instance has got nothing to do with GPS, the GPS recorded the train as being on time at Glan Conwy and Deganwy. The OP must have been looking around 21:30 when the Junction signaller should have entered the timings there.

 

[bramling]

Just returned from an enjoyable evening in Llandudno, meal few beers etc…

Planned to catch the last train of the evening 2151 Llandudno to Crewe alighting at Deganwy. Enjoying a pint and checked to make sure the train was running on time and according to the Railboard app the train was showing as delayed. I checked the corresponding inward working 2027 from Blaeanau Ffestiniog, due to depart Llandudno Junction at 2132 also showing as delayed.

I kept checking the app, and as at 2145 it still indicated that the Llandudno bound service had still not left the Junction. We leusurely finished our drinks and strolled to Llandudno Station arriving at 2155 to discover the 2151 to Crewe had left on time!

Ended up paying a small fortune (3 x the equivalent train fare) on Arriva’s Number 13 bus!

Is it normal for live running apps to give out erroneous information, as I have never come across it before?

I think the lesson is not to trust apps where timings are reported by humans, as would likely be the case here.

OTT Maps are more reliable as you can actually see where the train is, just need to make sure your screen hasn’t frozen!

 

[Llandudno]

Realtime Trains | 2D21 2027 Blaenau Ffestiniog to Llandudno | 18/08/2025

Real-time train running information for 2D21 2027 departure from Blaenau Ffestiniog to Llandudno on 18/08/2025. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

If you look at RTT for that train, you'll see that while the GPS was working fine at Blaenau, and from Betws onwards it wasn't working for the three request stops beforehand. So anyone who looked between 20:40 and when the train opened doors at Betws nearly 15 minutes later would have seen "delayed" on the boards anyway.

Edit: Have the Junction times been retrospectively added? I' m sure that they said "no report" last night.


Or not, if the signaller fails to input it. Both Llanrwst and Llandudno Junction signallers appear to have failed to enter times into TRUST.


No use in this area.


This instance has got nothing to do with GPS, the GPS recorded the train as being on time at Glan Conwy and Deganwy. The OP must have been looking around 21:30 when the Junction signaller should have entered the timings there.

I guess it must be easy to overlook inputting train running data at Llanrwst signal box because it’s so busy…!

 

[louis97]

This instance has got nothing to do with GPS, the GPS recorded the train as being on time at Glan Conwy and Deganwy. The OP must have been looking around 21:30 when the Junction signaller should have entered the timings there.

I suspect it does somewhat, as I've seen it on occasion where a GPS report has made it to RTT but not onto Darwin, causing the "delayed" message. Sounds like at least some of the GPS reports didn't make it to Darwin, along with a delayed manual report at Llandudno Junction.

There is actually an example of this today, with some GPS reports not making it to Darwin.

If all locations were not set to expect an automatic report, this would remove the risk from the unreliability of the GPS reporting.

 

[The exile]

A few years ago, my wife and travelled from Machynlleth to Aberystwyth for a late afternoon / early evening meal and to visit a couple of pubs, after which we aimed to travel back at around 2040.

We arrived back at the station with six or seven minutes to spare to find the CIS showing it delayed by about 15 mins, and considered popping back into the adjacent Wetherspoons but - fortunately - resisted.

Having then checked RTT, I discovered the incoming service was running about 15 mins late which would actually mean it arrived around its scheduled departure time, which indeed it did.

I wondered if there was some technical reason it would still sit there for its scheduled 15 minute layover? Er, no, a quick change of ends and it was off, only around 5 minutes late and 10 minutes before the screens were still showing! I've no idea how many passengers missed it as a result of this.

Technology (or various people’s management of it) doesn’t seem to be able to cope with “following workings”. The number of times you see a train starting at your station showing (and being auto announced ) as “on time” (ie departing now as the departure time has been reached) with nothing at the platform and the in bound working clearly showing as running late and not arriving for another 10 minutes.

 

[Deepgreen]

Meanwhile, SWR (inherited from SWT) chooses to use the term 'Due' (rather than 'On time') for trains that may not actually be due to leave for a long time yet! I notice this at Guildford a lot - Farnham (and other originating) trains are described as being 'Due' when their departure times are, say, 30 minutes away! All adds to the needless confusion around train information.

 

[Krokodil]

I suspect it does somewhat, as I've seen it on occasion where a GPS report has made it to RTT but not onto Darwin, causing the "delayed" message. Sounds like at least some of the GPS reports didn't make it to Darwin, along with a delayed manual report at Llandudno Junction.

In this instance the GPS did its job from Betws onwards so the OP would only have seen a GPS-induced "delay" if they'd checked at least an hour ahead of their departure.

The train's GPS self-reported at Blaenau so would have shown "On Time" until it failed to check in at Roman Bridge, from when it would have shown "delayed". When it opened doors at Betws it self-reported again so the "Delayed" would immediately have been replaced with "Arrived" there and subsequent stations either showing "On Time" or probably an expected time of one or two minutes late. This was the only time on that particular journey that the GPS missed anything.

There was a missed manual report at North Llanrwst so a brief period of "Delayed" before the GPS corrects it again at Dolgarrog.

The train self-reported at Glan Conwy so it would still have shown "On Time" until a couple of minutes after it should have arrived at Junction and no manual report came through. The "On Time" display would have resumed when the train arrived at Deganwy.

Incidentally staff (both onboard and stations up and down Wales, plus the Information Controllers) have complained many times about the effect of whatever system change was made. It can't really be called "recent" any more, I lose track of when it started. Apparently fixing whatever was broken is not easy, and for some reason they can't just revert to the old system. The Controller can't even manually override to remove a delay in the same way that they can add one.

 

[Welshguy1048]

Yeah, I use "no report" in my app, it's a reflection of the level of "trust" I have in TRUST

@JAWZ

Hello

What is you app please ?

Is it available on Android ?

Thank you

Dave