Restarting HS2 East

[eldomtom2]

The UK system, has very clear procedures in place for those who wish to challenge proposals (unlike in China), and full protections for those where the planning consent affects them.

The compensation regime is well established and is:

1. full value
2. plus all costs of moving including legals, removals, stamp duty, and other costs for items not easily moved (eg built in kitchens, carpets, sheds, etc)
3. plus 10% for the inconvenience.

In value terms, probably better than the Chinese system. In procedural terms, rather more democratic.

Increasingly I'm starting to see people say "It isn't democratic that one person's objections can hold up a project that will benefit millions of people", though.

 

[Shrop]

Shrop said:
would it really be such a bad thing for the UK to have a new railway that provides links both to and across the northern (Liverpool-Manchester-Sheffield/Leeds) corridor, when HS2 has so spectacularly failed these areas?

Thats what HS2 and NPR together were designed to do.

"What HS2 and NPR together were designed to do". Okay, and what actually will they do? What does the proposed scheme for HS2 and NPR look like today?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 18 Aug 2025 ==

Increasingly I'm starting to see people say "It isn't democratic that one person's objections can hold up a project that will benefit millions of people", though.

Exactly. This is a major key to why British engineering projects fail so often - those in power are so desperate to be seen to not upset people that that they end up disadvantaging far, far more. Then in the case of HS2 they end up incurring such massive legal (and other) costs that the whole project becomes unsustainable.

 

[Bald Rick]

What HS2 and NPR together were designed to do". Okay, and what actually will they do? What does the proposed scheme for HS2 and NPR look like today?

Sorry, I don’t understand your point.

 

[Shrop]

Sorry, I don’t understand your point.

I don't really think you need me to spell out, but just to play along, when will NPR and HS2 provide new and improved links to northern cities (from London) and between these northern cities?

 

[Bald Rick]

I don't really think you need me to spell out, but just to play along, when will NPR and HS2 provide new and improved links to northern cities (from London) and between these northern cities?

new and improved links between London and Northern cities: the day HS2 opens to Handsacre.

Links between Northern cities - well that depends on your defintion of NPR. Some might say that parts of the Transpennine upgrade is part of NPR, and so the answer is then ”when those parts of the Transpennine upgrade are brought into service”.

HS2 was never intended to provide links between Northern Cities, with the exception of Sheffield - Leeds.

But this is all well known and understood. Hence my question!

 

[Shrop]

new and improved links between London and Northern cities: the day HS2 opens to Handsacre.

Links between Northern cities - well that depends on your defintion of NPR. Some might say that parts of the Transpennine upgrade is part of NPR, and so the answer is then ”when those parts of the Transpennine upgrade are brought into service”.

HS2 was never intended to provide links between Northern Cities, with the exception of Sheffield - Leeds.

But this is all well known and understood. Hence my question!

However you might want to present this, the links between London and Northern cities will be pretty poor compared to what we were promised a few years ago. The links between Birmingham and Northern cities will be particularly poor for many years yet. You will be as aware as anyone that the Birmingham to Leeds journey time should have been around 45 minutes, and operational before even Phase 1 might be opened now.
My comments about NPR were in response to your claim that it would link Northern cities. This followed my suggestion that since HS2 has gone so badly, a new route could be worth considering, which could help to link Northern cities. I remain a long way from being convinced of the merits of HS2 and NPR, especially now that we're in the reality of 2025.

 

[Austriantrain]

If you want to restore the reputation of high speed rail in this country, I suggest you'd have to find a project that can be built in the Chinese style (almost entirely on a viaduct) with the minimum of mass demolitions or anything of that nature.

Based on experiences in continental Europe - and I do know that the UK is different, but still much more similar to the continent to than China - I would predict opposition will rise to 100% if you build everything on viaducts. There is a reason we are tunneling so much - it is not always topography; it reduces public opposition (at a very high cost, of course).

 

[HSTEd]

Based on experiences in continental Europe - and I do know that the UK is different, but still much more similar to the continent to than China - I would predict opposition will rise to 100% if you build everything on viaducts. There is a reason we are tunneling so much - it is not always topography; it reduces public opposition (at a very high cost, of course).

From this perspective, tunneling would also be nice if the bean counters would pay for it.

Things appear to go much better either above ground or below ground.
Surface level construction is apparently a nightmare.

 

[Bald Rick]

From this perspective, tunneling would also be nice if the bean counters taxpayers would pay for it.

Corrected for you

 

[al78]

However, rather than just being bulldozed out of the way, you will be given the full value of your property, plus 20% for the inconvenience.

Isn't there something called a compulsory purchase order in the UK and how does that compare to the Chinese system?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 22 Aug 2025 ==

Do longer trains eat network capacity?

AIUI there is a limit to how long you can make the trains before they start blocking points when stopped.

 

[Shrop]

Isn't there something called a compulsory purchase order in the UK and how does that compare to the Chinese system?

@Bald Rick has addressed that at the end of post #52. My point was really that the Chinese system is nothing like as draconian as UK propaganda would often have us believe.

 

[The Planner]

AIUI there is a limit to how long you can make the trains before they start blocking points when stopped.

Yes and no, it is timetable related. If there are no conflicting moves at that point in time then its not an issue.

 

[BrianW]

Isn't there something called a compulsory purchase order in the UK and how does that compare to the Chinese system?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 22 Aug 2025 ==


AIUI there is a limit to how long you can make the trains before they start blocking points when stopped.

When the Town and Country Planning Act (the 'Silkin' Act) was brought in in 1947 it introduced the concepts of Betterment and Compensation. The idea was that those gaining from planning permission should pay for those suffereing detriment. That was repealed subsequently and gave us Harry Hyams and his pet architect Richard Siefert and the kind of concrete redevelopments we love to hate. That's politics for you.

Regarding railway capacity, IIUC 'limiting factors' include numbers of tracks, flat junctions, lengths of platforms, station 'throats', speed, acceleration and braking profiles, station dwell times and distances apart ...

Are there 'spare' sets lurking with ROSCOs that could be released to lengthen trains without needing more crew and disproportionately more expense?

 

[Palmerston]

HS2’s Eastern Arm Version 3 – Greengauge 21

Recent article suggests that retaining the spur may be to connect HS2 to the Birmingham-Derby line.

 

[daodao]

HS2’s Eastern Arm Version 3 – Greengauge 21

Recent article suggests that retaining the spur may be to connect HS2 to the Birmingham-Derby line.

It is an excellent idea to run 2tph from London Euston and HS2 via this spur to Derby and Sheffield. I hope this is taken forward. Nottingham could then be served from St Pancras with 2tph express services just calling at Leicester, with 2tph semi-fast services on the MML running to Derby to provide connections there.

 

[Stossgebet]

I hope they build it. I also really hope they build it in a way that uses the new spur as a brake run from HS2 speed to conventional speeds, rather than slowing down trains on HS2 itself.

 

[The Planner]

HS2’s Eastern Arm Version 3 – Greengauge 21

Recent article suggests that retaining the spur may be to connect HS2 to the Birmingham-Derby line.

No one was going to redesign Delta Jn at this stage to not have a stub. There is nothing in that article that hasn't already been discussed on this forum by many members. It certainly doesn't mean its going to happen.

 

[Brubulus]

I hope they build it. I also really hope they build it in a way that uses the new spur as a brake run from HS2 speed to conventional speeds, rather than slowing down trains on HS2 itself.

Trains will have to slow to 140mph to leave HS2 due to the point design, then likely merge onto the XC route at 125mph.

The cost benefit analysis would be very good since it enables better use of Curzon Street alongside potentially decongesting Kingsbury and Water Orton. This is not to mention the benefit of 2 more paths on the MML and faster services to Derby and Sheffield.

 

[HSTEd]

Does the track layout provide separate tracks from Birmingham all the way to the diverging stub, or does it merge everything into two running lines in between the branch to Birmingham and the Eastern stub?
The former would make it much easier to put ~140mph units (like Class 80x) into Birmingham from the north east.

 

[Nottingham59]

Does the track layout provide separate tracks from Birmingham all the way to the diverging stub, or does it merge everything into two running lines in between the branch to Birmingham and the Eastern stub?
The former would make it much easier to put ~140mph units (like Class 80x) into Birmingham from the north east.

Judging by the viaducts being built, they're building all the tracks in the original design of the delta junction. There are four tracks heading north as far as Faraday Avenue, where construction currently ends. The diverging junction to HS2 Eaat is beyond that point, and is still a field.

 

[MPW]

How close does the land released from the eastern leg get to delta junction? That would be a good clue as to whether or not the connection is being considered

 

[BerkshireRails]

HS2’s Eastern Arm Version 3 – Greengauge 21

Recent article suggests that retaining the spur may be to connect HS2 to the Birmingham-Derby line.

With diesel traction?

 

[Palmerston]

With diesel traction?

If this went ahead the assumption/plan is that electrification would be needed so an electric HS2 train could use the route.

 

[JonathanH]

If this went ahead the assumption/plan is that electrification would be needed so an electric HS2 train could use the route.

That sounds like it would need some significant investment that isn't currently funded. Could HS2 trains simply be fitted with batteries for any (lower speed) extension to Derby and Nottingham using a spur line?

 

[HSTEd]

That sounds like it would need some significant investment that isn't currently funded. Could HS2 trains simply be fitted with batteries for any (lower speed) extension to Derby and Nottingham using a spur line?

Conceptually yes, but I don't think anyone does self powered trains with a top speed above 250kph at the moment. Apart from a very limited battery self rescue capability on the N700S.

In the short term I doubt that matters considering how empty HS2 would be, but it might later.
Services to Birmingham could likely operate with any rolling stock fitted with ETCS without much issue though.

 

[BerkshireRails]

Conceptually yes, but I don't think anyone does self powered trains with a top speed above 250kph at the moment. Apart from a very limited battery self rescue capability on the N700S.

In the short term I doubt that matters considering how empty HS2 would be, but it might later.
Services to Birmingham could likely operate with any rolling stock fitted with ETCS without much issue though.

So maybe a fleet of 805s with ETCS fitted?

 

[Brubulus]

While I understand there is currently an order for 54 Zefiro units, those will be used up quite quickly. Since 18 (9x2) units will be required for Scotland services, alongside 10 for Liverpool, and 6x2 for Birmingham. So that's already 40 of 54 units being used. The maximum number of trains that could reasonably be diagrammed is around 49. As such this leaves 9 "spare" trains. Manchester will require around 13 units.

Further EMU only opportunities that might be viable with just Phase 1 include a second hourly service to Scotland (9/18 more units) and a service to Lancaster. (6 more units) alongside a Birmingham-Manchester shuttle (3 units)

If Lancaster and the Birmingham-Manchester shuttle are implemented, that would then enable a separate 325M fleet for Manchester services and a battery fleet for services to Chester and Sheffield. Apart from volume and weight, there is no reason why batteries on a high speed train aren't viable.

 

[CdBrux]

HS2’s Eastern Arm Version 3 – Greengauge 21

Recent article suggests that retaining the spur may be to connect HS2 to the Birmingham-Derby line.

this idea does seem to have a lot of merits, to me a good example of thinking pragmatically vs thinking as big as possible

 

[BrianW]

While I understand there is currently an order for 54 Zefiro units, those will be used up quite quickly. Since 18 (9x2) units will be required for Scotland services, alongside 10 for Liverpool, and 6x2 for Birmingham. So that's already 40 of 54 units being used. The maximum number of trains that could reasonably be diagrammed is around 49. As such this leaves 9 "spare" trains. Manchester will require around 13 units.

Further EMU only opportunities that might be viable with just Phase 1 include a second hourly service to Scotland (9/18 more units) and a service to Lancaster. (6 more units) alongside a Birmingham-Manchester shuttle (3 units)

If Lancaster and the Birmingham-Manchester shuttle are implemented, that would then enable a separate 325M fleet for Manchester services and a battery fleet for services to Chester and Sheffield. Apart from volume and weight, there is no reason why batteries on a high speed train aren't viable.

Who is it that orders trains without them being committed to run on such-and-such a route and from a given date? Presumably someone in an 'official' capacity considers such matters, and someone 'signs off'. Is all that secret?

 

[Nottingham59]

Who is it that orders trains without them being committed to run on such-and-such a route and from a given date? Presumably someone in an 'official' capacity considers such matters, and someone 'signs off'. Is all that secret?

HS2 Ltd awards landmark rolling stock contracts to Hitachi-Alstom joint venture

Major boost for UK train-building as HS2’s state-of-the-art fleet of 225mph (360km/h) high speed trains will be built by Alstom and Hitachi Rail at their factories in County Durham, Derby and Crewe Landmark contract set to support 2,500 jobs across the UK and boost the economy by over £157m...

mediacentre.hs2.org.uk

HS2 Ltd awards landmark rolling stock contracts to Hitachi-Alstom joint venture