Is it time to look again at 70mph Limits?

[Krokodil]

The 70s on the North Wales Coast are because sections of that are a "special road" but not a motorway and so were they not present there would be no speed limit at all for cars on that stretch of road. (I believe lower limits for lorries etc are under different legislation and would still apply).

Not that you'd believe it when you see the way the Irish lorries drive along there. I've been overtaken when doing (indicated) 70.

 

[Topological]

The section from there up to Brynmawr has tighter curves and shorter forward visibility on the main carriageways and the slip roads, because of the topography, so a lower limit is entirely appropriate. I don't see any issues with siting the cameras there, they are bright yellow and as your other photo shows, visible for several hundred metres. Anyone who misses them should get to Specsavers, and off the road

I think I probably do need to go to Specsavers. I never noticed anything particularly unique about that section compared to many other 70s in the UK.

For tight on-slips see the M50.

Cue, reduce the M50 speed limit.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think I probably do need to go to Specsavers. I never noticed anything particularly unique about that section compared to many other 70s in the UK.

The speed limit applies whether you think it's sensible or not. There is clearly variance - Milton Keynes urban roads are 70, for instance, yet the M32 (full motorway spec) is largely 50.

 

[Topological]

The speed limit applies whether you think it's sensible or not. There is clearly variance - Milton Keynes urban roads are 70, for instance, yet the M32 (full motorway spec) is largely 50.

And is obeyed, whether I like it or not.

I just like to think there can be a bit more consistency applied and that speed cameras are a minimum of 200m past signs where the road speed being dropped from is 70mph (less proportionally for slower speeds).

At the other end of this particular limit it seemed like the corresponding entry camera had been beheaded and the next one was much further past the sign. Still slowed to 50 though because that is what the sign says. I just don't brake sharply like some do.

On the other side, this is not the answer either:



The number of times you see someone looking at traffic doing 70 glance at this sign and slam on the brakes is ridiculous. I very much pass this sign at 70 (if conditions allow) From about where the red van is on the right hand lane gives you a neat deceleration to 50 in time for the actual limit (if the road is clear)

 

[Bletchleyite]

That sign is probably non-compliant. The red circle is meant to be black on signs advising of an upcoming speed limit, not red.

However if a sign like that takes you by surprise so you have to slam on your brakes, you are not paying sufficient attention. You should notice it several seconds out which is plenty of time to process its impact and lift off the accelerator to slow appropriately to pass it at the limit if it actually was a limit sign.

I can think of one where if I didn't know it was there it would not give enough sighting time to slow carefully - the 70 to 30 on the approach to Chesterfield town centre from the M1. But a 40mph drop is non-compliant anyway, that should be 70-50-30 over a reasonable distance.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 18 Aug 2025 ==

I very much pass this sign at 70 (if conditions allow) From about where the red van is on the right hand lane gives you a neat deceleration to 50 in time for the actual limit (if the road is clear)

It's not a speed limit sign so this is fine (though it should have a black, not red, border).

 

[styles]

Why do we have to make all these concessions?

We won't prosecute if you're less than 10%+2mph over the limit.

We'll offer you a course instead of points if you're 10%+9mph over the limit.

We won't prosecute you if you're only 200m past a new speed limit sign.

Driving a car is dangerous and holds a great deal of responsibility. They weigh up to 2 tonnes and can do over 100mph. They kill people in an instant. If people don't want to lose their privilege of driving then they should obey the speed limits.

We are more than generous to speeding drivers in the UK, including in Scotland where we don't offer speed awareness courses frankly.

Adding more get out clauses for speeding is bonkers, and can only lead to a greater loss of life.

 

[Topological]

That sign is probably non-compliant. The red circle is meant to be black on signs advising of an upcoming speed limit, not red.

However if a sign like that takes you by surprise so you have to slam on your brakes, you are not paying sufficient attention. You should notice it several seconds out which is plenty of time to process its impact and lift off the accelerator to slow appropriately to pass it at the limit if it actually was a limit sign.

I can think of one where if I didn't know it was there it would not give enough sighting time to slow carefully - the 70 to 30 on the approach to Chesterfield town centre from the M1. But a 40mph drop is non-compliant anyway, that should be 70-50-30 over a reasonable distance.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 18 Aug 2025 ==



It's not a speed limit sign so this is fine (though it should have a black, not red, border).

It is amazing how many drivers are not paying enough attention on that stretch. There are people slamming on most times I go down that part of the M4 in traffic (changed at the moment because there is a 50 for roadworks a mile or so previous and few go back to 70) and a lot of the time I pass there is at night when there are few cars on the road who dont regularly drive the section.

So many people see a red circle 50 and dont note the 3/4 mile ahead part. So I am glad the A465 example does not have such a sign.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 18 Aug 2025 ==

Why do we have to make all these concessions?

We won't prosecute if you're less than 10%+2mph over the limit.

We'll offer you a course instead of points if you're 10%+9mph over the limit.

We won't prosecute you if you're only 200m past a new speed limit sign.

Driving a car is dangerous and holds a great deal of responsibility. They weigh up to 2 tonnes and can do over 100mph. They kill people in an instant. If people don't want to lose their privilege of driving then they should obey the speed limits.

We are more than generous to speeding drivers in the UK, including in Scotland where we don't offer speed awareness courses frankly.

Adding more get out clauses for speeding is bonkers, and can only lead to a greater loss of life.

Unless I am mistaken, it is only one course every 3(?) years and points otherwise.

There is a huge difference between speeding in urban areas where there may actually be pedestrians and taking 200m to drop from 70 to 50 on a motorway in the countryside (as the one I pictured is). It is when we try to conflate the two we create some sort of "average". Averages are very dangerous.

 

[Merle Haggard]

snip

We won't prosecute if you're less than 10%+2mph over the limit.

snip

Drivers may be under an illusion here; lorry drivers in particular seem to routinely do 56 in motorway roadworks 50 limits (measured by my sat nav, not speedo) - and, on you tube there's at least one dash cam video clearly showing this (ironically, showing alleged 'bad driving' by other drivers!) , and, when questioned, the driver stated it was 'within the limit'.
Isn't the 'concession' to reflect that no measuring device is 100% accurate? I don't know what the prescribed accuracy of the camera is, but it can never be + or - zero. So, if it's 10% out (overstating) then you pass it at a real 50, records it as 55, you're ok because it's within the tolerance. But if you pass it at 56, it records you as 61.6 and you are caught.
Not just the accuracy of the speed camera, either; the device the driver uses to indicate the vehicles speed will not be an exact. But the lorry driver mentioned above obviously thought that his dash cam was +/- zero. for speed indication.

PS I think there is an obvious defence for exceeding a 20 mph limit (slightly - say 23). I reserve the details in the event of my own defence but here's a clue; look at the C&U regs

 

[Topological]

Drivers may be under an illusion here; lorry drivers in particular seem to routinely do 56 in motorway roadworks 50 limits (measured by my sat nav, not speedo) - and, on you tube there's at least one dash cam video clearly showing this (ironically, showing alleged 'bad driving' by other drivers!) , and, when questioned, the driver stated it was 'within the limit'.
Isn't the 'concession' to reflect that no measuring device is 100% accurate? I don't know what the prescribed accuracy of the camera is, but it can never be + or - zero. So, if it's 10% out (overstating) then you pass it at a real 50, records it as 55, you're ok because it's within the tolerance. But if you pass it at 56, it records you as 61.6 and you are caught.
Not just the accuracy of the speed camera, either; the device the driver uses to indicate the vehicles speed will not be an exact. But the lorry driver mentioned above obviously thought that his dash cam was +/- zero. for speed indication.

PS I think there is an obvious defence for exceeding a 20 mph limit (slightly - say 23). I reserve the details in the event of my own defence but here's a clue; look at the C&U regs

I always thought the accuracy was to do with the car speedometer rather than the camera. My understanding is that the cameras are accurate enough to prosecute at even 1 mph over the speed limit.

Average speed cameras should be getting it much more right and lorries still use the 10%+2 on some of those.

 

[styles]

Drivers may be under an illusion here; lorry drivers in particular seem to routinely do 56 in motorway roadworks 50 limits (measured by my sat nav, not speedo) - and, on you tube there's at least one dash cam video clearly showing this (ironically, showing alleged 'bad driving' by other drivers!) , and, when questioned, the driver stated it was 'within the limit'.

Yes not all camera to control room arrangements reflect the class of vehicle. Alas, they are not perfect!

Isn't the 'concession' to reflect that no measuring device is 100% accurate?

No. Speedometers on motor vehicles by law cannot underestimate the true speed. They can overestimate by quite a sizeable 10%+10kmph in the EU (10%+6.25mph in the UK).

The NPCC guidance is in place to allow for slight mishaps - this reason is actually documented in their guidance, or at least it was in the old ACPO guidance. I'm generally happy to have some sort of enforcement threshold to allow for this, as prosecuting for 2mph over any limit is daft, but the 10%+2mph which most (not all) police forces follow is arguably too generous, particularly at motorway and dual carriageway national speed limit speeds.

I don't know what the prescribed accuracy of the camera is, but it can never be + or - zero.

Correct. The cameras have to be periodically calibrated and they will always be marginally out as you'd require some obscenely specific hardware and software to measure things down to say 0.01mph accuracy.

So, if it's 10% out (overstating)

They are not 10% out. The manufacturer data sheets put them at 1-2% tolerance depending on the model. That's why other countries who use the same cameras don't apply such a generous 10%+2mph allowance.

then you pass it at a real 50, records it as 55, you're ok because it's within the tolerance.

As above, this isn't reality.

But if you pass it at 56, it records you as 61.6 and you are caught.

As above, this isn't reality.

Not just the accuracy of the speed camera, either; the device the driver uses to indicate the vehicles speed will not be an exact. But the lorry driver mentioned above obviously thought that his dash cam was +/- zero. for speed indication.

Correct. As stated above, legally, the speedometer in your motor vehicle cannot underestimate what your speed is. If you do have a speedometer with this error (which should be checked at MOT), you'll commit a different offence under the Construction and Use Regulations anyway, just you'll get a lesser penalty.

If you manage to successfully argue the RVCUR offence of having a faulty speedometer, you might be lucky and get away with no conviction if the police decide not to pursue either offence, but that's a silly game to.play just to justify speeding let's be honest.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 18 Aug 2025 ==

There is a huge difference between speeding in urban areas where there may actually be pedestrians and taking 200m to drop from 70 to 50 on a motorway in the countryside (as the one I pictured is). It is when we try to conflate the two we create some sort of "average". Averages are very dangerous.

And a 200m grace period might be fine if we remove the 10%+2 tolerance before enforcement and the 10%+9mph tolerance for speed awareness courses.

Having all 3 concessions is just bending over backwards for frankly dangerous drivers.

 

[Topological]

Yes not all camera to control room arrangements reflect the class of vehicle. Alas, they are not perfect!

No. Speedometers on motor vehicles by law cannot underestimate the true speed. They can overestimate by quite a sizeable 10%+10kmph in the EU (10%+6.25mph in the UK).

The NPCC guidance is in place to allow for slight mishaps - this reason is actually documented in their guidance, or at least it was in the old ACPO guidance. I'm generally happy to have some sort of enforcement threshold to allow for this, as prosecuting for 2mph over any limit is daft, but the 10%+2mph which most (not all) police forces follow is arguably too generous, particularly at motorway and dual carriageway national speed limit speeds.

Correct. The cameras have to be periodically calibrated and they will always be marginally out as you'd require some obscenely specific hardware and software to measure things down to say 0.01mph accuracy.

They are not 10% out. The manufacturer data sheets put them at 1-2% tolerance depending on the model. That's why other countries who use the same cameras don't apply such a generous 10%+2mph allowance.

As above, this isn't reality.

As above, this isn't reality.

Correct. As stated above, legally, the speedometer in your motor vehicle cannot underestimate what your speed is. If you do have a speedometer with this error (which should be checked at MOT), you'll commit a different offence under the Construction and Use Regulations anyway, just you'll get a lesser penalty.

If you manage to successfully argue the RVCUR offence of having a faulty speedometer, you might be lucky and get away with no conviction if the police decide not to pursue either offence, but that's a silly game to.play just to justify speeding let's be honest.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 18 Aug 2025 ==


And a 200m grace period might be fine if we remove the 10%+2 tolerance before enforcement and the 10%+9mph tolerance for speed awareness courses.

Having all 3 concessions is just bending over backwards for frankly dangerous drivers.

The grace distance is about 70 going down to 50 on motorways. Not about any form of entry into urban areas, or changes in road conditions.

The driver is neither dangerous, nor speeding, up to the sign.

The only point at which a speeding offence is committed is immediately after the sign.

Therefore the question is how is it best to manage the deceleration. Quick braking would keep the driver legal, but is dangerous. Managed slowing leading up to the sign is great, but for many reasons may not be how it is done if the driver is paying attention to something else on the road. Allowing time to respond to the sign seems fair in cases where there is no immediate impact danger.

 

[MotCO]

One thing that hasn't been mentioned yet is particulate air pollution from tyre debris which won't be solved by EVs, with some research suggesting this is a bigger problem than exhaust emissions

Car tyres produce vastly more particle pollution than exhausts, tests show

Toxic particles from tyre wear almost 2,000 times worse than from exhausts as weight of cars increases

www.theguardian.com

"Car tyres produce vastly more particle pollution than exhausts, tests show

Toxic particles from tyre wear almost 2,000 times worse than from exhausts as weight of cars increases" (quote from linked Guardian article)

Are tyre debris particulate deposits related to speed?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Therefore the question is how is it best to manage the deceleration. Quick braking would keep the driver legal, but is dangerous. Managed slowing leading up to the sign is great

It's not great. It is the ONLY correct approach to approaching a speed limit sign.

If you've momentarily zoned out, then the correct action is to look in your rear view mirror and ensure that a reasonably rapid deceleration would not cause an accident. If it might, you slow more gradually and accept your speeding ticket because you have broken the law. If it wouldn't then you brake. But if that's happening a lot rather than once in a blue moon, I'd suggest there is something that needs looking at for that driver, be it eyesight, approach/attitude to the road, reactions (if they're getting older in particular) or whether they are adequately rested for the drive or driving too far in one day/without a proper break.

but for many reasons may not be how it is done if the driver is paying attention to something else on the road. Allowing time to respond to the sign seems fair in cases where there is no immediate impact danger.

There is time to respond to the sign - from the point you saw it to the point you pass it. That starts way back - you see that there is a speed limit sign long before you can read what number is on it (just as you can clearly see a smart motorway gantry lit up with something red and white a fair way back before you can quite make out what the number is). A driver who is this reactionary is driving in a "firefighting" style from crisis to crisis, not properly anticipating and aiming for a smooth and professional drive. That's what I'd expect to see a 17 year old who had just passed their test to do, not the generally older demographic in here who have plenty of experience!

 

[Krokodil]

yet the M32 (full motorway spec) is largely 50

In my experience of living in South Glos and travelling into Bristol pre-Metrobus you'd be lucky to manage 50mph on the M32. The city is far too congested.

The number of times you see someone looking at traffic doing 70 glance at this sign and slam on the brakes is ridiculous. I very much pass this sign at 70 (if conditions allow) From about where the red van is on the right hand lane gives you a neat deceleration to 50 in time for the actual limit (if the road is clear)

That sign is probably non-compliant. The red circle is meant to be black on signs advising of an upcoming speed limit, not red.

Perhaps the roads should adopt the yellow triangle used on the railways

 

[Bletchleyite]

I stand corrected on the upcoming limit sign by the way - it is meant to be red, I'm told, not black. That's potentially confusing and maybe needs changing!

 

[Topological]

It's not great. It is the ONLY correct approach to approaching a speed limit sign.

If you've momentarily zoned out, then the correct action is to look in your rear view mirror and ensure that a reasonably rapid deceleration would not cause an accident. If it might, you slow more gradually and accept your speeding ticket because you have broken the law. If it wouldn't then you brake. But if that's happening a lot rather than once in a blue moon, I'd suggest there is something that needs looking at for that driver, be it eyesight, approach/attitude to the road, reactions (if they're getting older in particular) or whether they are adequately rested for the drive or driving too far in one day/without a proper break.

There is time to respond to the sign - from the point you saw it to the point you pass it. That starts way back - you see that there is a speed limit sign long before you can read what number is on it (just as you can clearly see a smart motorway gantry lit up with something red and white a fair way back before you can quite make out what the number is). A driver who is this reactionary is driving in a "firefighting" style from crisis to crisis, not properly anticipating and aiming for a smooth and professional drive. That's what I'd expect to see a 17 year old who had just passed their test to do, not the generally older demographic in here who have plenty of experience!

It has been an interesting discussion, but this really feels like a case where the camera is in a location that says money grab rather than safety. It is like they want to catch people. I can only say what the impression is.

Perhaps we could have a similar 3 2 1 approach to 50s like there are for junctions. But that would be longer than the 200m I suggested.

 

[Merle Haggard]

Yes not all camera to control room arrangements reflect the class of vehicle. Alas, they are not perfect!

No. Speedometers on motor vehicles by law cannot underestimate the true speed. They can overestimate by quite a sizeable 10%+10kmph in the EU (10%+6.25mph in the UK).

The NPCC guidance is in place to allow for slight mishaps - this reason is actually documented in their guidance, or at least it was in the old ACPO guidance. I'm generally happy to have some sort of enforcement threshold to allow for this, as prosecuting for 2mph over any limit is daft, but the 10%+2mph which most (not all) police forces follow is arguably too generous, particularly at motorway and dual carriageway national speed limit speeds.

Correct. The cameras have to be periodically calibrated and they will always be marginally out as you'd require some obscenely specific hardware and software to measure things down to say 0.01mph accuracy.

They are not 10% out. The manufacturer data sheets put them at 1-2% tolerance depending on the model. That's why other countries who use the same cameras don't apply such a generous 10%+2mph allowance.

As above, this isn't reality.

As above, this isn't reality.

Correct. As stated above, legally, the speedometer in your motor vehicle cannot underestimate what your speed is. If you do have a speedometer with this error (which should be checked at MOT), you'll commit a different offence under the Construction and Use Regulations anyway, just you'll get a lesser penalty.

If you manage to successfully argue the RVCUR offence of having a faulty speedometer, you might be lucky and get away with no conviction if the police decide not to pursue either offence, but that's a silly game to.play just to justify speeding let's be honest.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 18 Aug 2025 ==


And a 200m grace period might be fine if we remove the 10%+2 tolerance before enforcement and the 10%+9mph tolerance for speed awareness courses.

Having all 3 concessions is just bending over backwards for frankly dangerous drivers.

Thanks; just to be clear, when I wrote 'isn't the concession to reflect that no measuring device is 100% accurate' I had in mind the speed camera itself.
My defence in, say, doing 23 in a 20 limit was based on 'Motor vehicles Approval Regs 1996' / section 19 - speedometers / clause 3. But presumably the requirement to not have an understating speedo is covered elsewhere, though I can't find it.

As an aside, I passed the driving test in 1971, as well was cars drove a variety of vehicle types for leisure and, after I retired from a proper job, drove about 100,000 miles for an events company but have never had a speeding ticket, so I'm not being defensive. Some of the heavier vehicles I drove in my early days had speedos that didn't indicate low speeds at all.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Perhaps we could have a similar 3 2 1 approach to 50s like there are for junctions. But that would be longer than the 200m I suggested.

There is such a countdown-to-speed-limit sign set which can be used where sighting is poor (e.g. there's a bend before the limit) or where you can't drop in 20mph increments, or where surveys show a lot of drivers are passing the limit signs above the limit. They look like the junction ones but with a speed limit sign shown at the top. However it is not necessary to use them in situations like the one pictured where you can see the signs a long way out with plenty of time to lose 20mph without even needing to use the brakes.

Perhaps more extreme is the way France, Italy and Germany like to dictate your precise braking curve on off slips, though - for those not familiar they are signed to 110, 90, 70, 50 down the slip road and leave things rather littered with signage!

 

[Topological]

There is such a countdown-to-speed-limit sign set which can be used where sighting is poor (e.g. there's a bend before the limit) or where you can't drop in 20mph increments, or where surveys show a lot of drivers are passing the limit signs above the limit. They look like the junction ones but with a speed limit sign shown at the top. However it is not necessary to use them in situations like the one pictured where you can see the signs a long way out with plenty of time to lose 20mph without even needing to use the brakes.

Perhaps more extreme is the way France, Italy and Germany like to dictate your precise braking curve on off slips, though - for those not familiar they are signed to 110, 90, 70, 50 down the slip road and leave things rather littered with signage!

I would still like to see them for every drop on a motorway.

You say that one is obvious, but in the dark when there are cars on full beam coming the other way (yes, thats poor driving, but we know it happens) and there is a lorry in the left lane (which you would rightly overtake) then it is not so "obvious". Yes it should still be seen, but we have to be realistic about how many combinations of factors can make one sign take longer to register.

Having more signs warning of an upcoming 50 seems like a small thing.

 

[Bletchleyite]

You say that one is obvious, but in the dark when there are cars on full beam coming the other way (yes, thats poor driving, but we know it happens) and there is a lorry in the left lane (which you would rightly overtake) then it is not so "obvious".

It's on both sides of the road. There is a tiny chance of missing it if you were both overtaking a lorry at a low differential AND being overtaken by a large van at a similarly low differential, but the chance of that is fairly low and you have had warning of upcoming speed enforcement so your brain should be starting to think about the possibility. I'd not be opposed to countdowns being added, but I don't think this one is bad at all. Particularly as you'll see others start to slow which coupled with the cameras ahead should make your brain be looking for what is happening if you are driving attentively.

If someone normally isn't driving attentively, well, perhaps take the train instead?

 

[Shrop]

For my two penn'orth I offer the most inappropriate speed limit I've seen to date. https://www.google.com/maps/@53.0792309,-3.0210474,3a,75y,161.73h,89.3t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1shpMVIMNFy3awn9w3M7VQ5Q!2e0!6shttps://streetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com/v1/thumbnail?cb_client=maps_sv.tactile&w=900&h=600&pitch=0.6969601929951921&panoid=hpMVIMNFy3awn9w3M7VQ5Q&yaw=161.7265001484651!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu&g_ep=EgoyMDI1MDgxMy4wIKXMDSoASAFQAw==

In case the link doesn't open, I'll attempt to paste a picture. This shows an extract from Google Maps, at Gwersyllt just northwest of Wrexham, heading southeast towards Wrexham, on the A541. This appears to have been a dual carriageway in the past, with the right hand lane now hatched out. As you can see, there are no houses or other frontages on this side of the road, there is a very lightly used footway, and the road is pretty straight, with the 20mph continuing well beyond what can be seen in the picture. The question is, why does this need to be 20mph here? Surely this is a big contributor to bringing the speed limit system into disrepute as drivers simply cannot see any reason to do 20mph, other than in fear of a penalty if it's enforced?
Personally I've believed for many years that speed limits in many places should be variable, eg. 10mph lower between 8am and 6pm than outside these times. The lower limit would be the one that is signed, with the higher limit applying 6pm to 8am. No signing would be necessary for the higher limit, it would just be enforced as required.

 

[stuu]

20 looks appropriate based on the condition of the surface, perhaps the limit is to reduce compensation claims

 

[Topological]

For my two penn'orth I offer the most inappropriate speed limit I've seen to date. https://www.google.com/maps/@53.0792309,-3.0210474,3a,75y,161.73h,89.3t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1shpMVIMNFy3awn9w3M7VQ5Q!2e0!6shttps://streetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com/v1/thumbnail?cb_client=maps_sv.tactile&w=900&h=600&pitch=0.6969601929951921&panoid=hpMVIMNFy3awn9w3M7VQ5Q&yaw=161.7265001484651!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu&g_ep=EgoyMDI1MDgxMy4wIKXMDSoASAFQAw==
View attachment 186600
In case the link doesn't open, I'll attempt to paste a picture. This shows an extract from Google Maps, at Gwersyllt just northwest of Wrexham, heading southeast towards Wrexham, on the A541. This appears to have been a dual carriageway in the past, with the right hand lane now hatched out. As you can see, there are no houses or other frontages on this side of the road, there is a very lightly used footway, and the road is pretty straight, with the 20mph continuing well beyond what can be seen in the picture. The question is, why does this need to be 20mph here? Surely this is a big contributor to bringing the speed limit system into disrepute as drivers simply cannot see any reason to do 20mph, other than in fear of a penalty if it's enforced?
Personally I've believed for many years that speed limits in many places should be variable, eg. 10mph lower between 8am and 6pm than outside these times. The lower limit would be the one that is signed, with the higher limit applying 6pm to 8am. No signing would be necessary for the higher limit, it would just be enforced as required.

Do you know if this is one of the roads that is going back to 30? Flintshire were going to apply for a lot of roads but then only got a few approved in the end.

 

[Shrop]

Do you know if this is one of the roads that is going back to 30? Flintshire were going to apply for a lot of roads but then only got a few approved in the end.

I don't know I'm afraid, I certainly hope so. It's a complete mystery how a road like this could possibly have become 20mph in the first place!

A couple of points having only just picked up on this thread ...

Just a couple of miles away on the Wrexham by-pass there are signs saying that the 50mph limit is to reduce pollution, which is pretty dubious reasoning too. I find it hard to accept speed limits with this claimed reasoning, when so little effort is made to encourage more sustainable driving (and there are many ways to do this).

I'm all for speed limits where safety considerations justify it, but there are many where the primary purpose appears to be to catch drivers out where they wouldn't suspect a low speed limit, and then fine them as a cash cow or even just to demonstrate that enforcement work is being carried out (ie something of a tick-box exercise).

I do think 70mph on motorways (and dual carriageways) is quite ridiculous when the enforcement of it is so random. We all know that on motorways which aren't congested, if you travel at 70mph you will get overtaken by far more cars than you overtake, so why not raise the speed limit to 80mph and then enforce it far more routinely? If the fines from enforcement cameras were ring-fenced in order to pay for themselves then it the costs of providing them would be pretty minimal.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I don't know I'm afraid, I certainly hope so. It's a complete mystery how a road like this could possibly have become 20mph in the first place!

There's a similar silly one just off the A55 at Llandudno Junction. It's simply a road that once took the built-up area default of 30 (which will have felt slow but not that slow) so changed to default 20. It really needs signing up to 40 or 50.

 

[cactustwirly]

Then pay your fines and take your points. 20 limits quite rightly will not get fewer in number - they demonstrably save lives in large numbers. Throughout Europe 30km/h is becoming the urban standard.



No normal car I've had was a massive problem to drive at 20mph in second gear. If you choose an overpowered sports car you've made an erroneous choice and have to live with that choice.

It's categorically unfair to ban drivers after 1 transgression mistakes happen.

I have a clean license but understand mistakes happen.

The current system is proportional to the speeding offence and doesn't need to be changed

My last car was a 2.0L Diesel and that had a lot of torque too, fortunately I could be in 3rd gear at low rpms so was easier to manage.
This car has low gearing so revs high in 3rd but 20 is too slow for 4th.

If you're in a slow 1.2 you have to work it hard to get anywhere so is a lot easier to control at low speeds.
30mph+ is far easier to maintain and requires a lot less concentration.
My near miss was driving to work before my coffee had kicked in and had a momentary lapse of concentration, plus the speed camera van was parked in a bush immediately before a 50 zone basically there to deliberately catch you out, and not at all for road safety.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 18 Aug 2025 ==

I think I probably do need to go to Specsavers. I never noticed anything particularly unique about that section compared to many other 70s in the UK.

For tight on-slips see the M50.

Cue, reduce the M50 speed limit.

Tight on slips aren't a problem if you drive properly, A34 has one at where it meets the A303. Hasn't been a problem

 

[Krokodil]

It's categorically unfair to ban drivers after 1 transgression mistakes happen.

Depends upon the transgression. If you're doing 70mph in a 30 then a ban of a decent length is entirely appropriate.

Maybe more minor infractions should have short bans too. Get caught doing 10mph above the limit and you can get the bus for a week.

 

[bramling]

Depends upon the transgression. If you're doing 70mph in a 30 then a ban of a decent length is entirely appropriate.

Maybe more minor infractions should have short bans too. Get caught doing 10mph above the limit and you can get the bus for a week.

To do these things there has to be respect for the laws in place, as with any law. I’m not convinced that’s widely the case with some speed limits. Whether that’s right or wrong is a separate matter, but one has to be careful when there isn’t massive respect for law as that’s when the whole system falls apart.

 

[cactustwirly]

Depends upon the transgression. If you're doing 70mph in a 30 then a ban of a decent length is entirely appropriate.

Maybe more minor infractions should have short bans too. Get caught doing 10mph above the limit and you can get the bus for a week.

Yeah that's taken care of in the current system, dangerous driving charge most likely.

It's completely different to getting 3 points for doing 25 in a 20 and getting a ban, that was what Bletchleyite was proposing

Currently it's a £100 fine, some points and you learn from experience and don't do it again.
The points is a bigger punishment as you have to declare this on your insurance for 5 years and it will increase your premiums by far more than the £100 fine

The speed camera vans have double standards, they will sit there all day in posh villages catching people out with minor transgressions. At the same time you can easily do 100+ down the A34 without any consequences

 

[mmh]

There's a similar silly one just off the A55 at Llandudno Junction. It's simply a road that once took the built-up area default of 30 (which will have felt slow but not that slow) so changed to default 20. It really needs signing up to 40 or 50.

Hmm, where is that? At both junctions for, umm Junction (hah!) the speed limit drops from 70 (not national speed limit 70 as previously discussed) to 30 at the end of the slip roads where the special road restrictions end.

At the A470 "Black Cat" junction, after the roundabouts the speed limits change to national speed limit (towards Llandudno, Mochdre and Bryn y Maen), 40mph (towards Glan Conwy, and 20 mph through Llandudno Junction itself (which is absolutely a built-in and residential road and would never be considered for more than 30)

At the "RSPB / Tesco" junction, the only exit road, Ffordd 6G (railway trivia: named after the code for the railway depot there before the road was built), is 30mph. It's not residential but does have pedestrian crossings and considerable pedestrian usage as it's the only way to access Tesco, the leisure centre and cinema). Again it'd never be considered for more than 30.

From Ffordd 6G, at the former "Weekly News" roundabout, 30mph continues in all directions other than Llandudno Junction itself again. The first changes to 20mph are a considerable distance away - at the level crossing before Deganwy Station, and at Conwy Suspension Bridge. The 30mph exemptions here to the 20mph default have been in place since the first day of 20mph.