i had a feeling 004 hadnt been out for a while. That was the very first 197 in passenger service back in Nov 2022. Stripped for spare parts to keep others going?
At least they have the ERTMS units to fall back on for the moment anyway.
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CAF class 197 Civity for TfW: News and updates on introduction.
- Thread starter hexagon789
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At least they have the ERTMS units to fall back on for the moment anyway.
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Looks that way. Its in the sidings in Chester with bits of tape and plastic covering where things have been removed.
It seems to be a general issue across all the 19x fleets from speaking to other TOCs rather than just 197s.
197106
Thanks.
Saving money by not maintaining stocks of spares. Which inevitably has an impact upon availability.
tfw756rider
On Moderation
Why are CAF so bad with this, and when will they sort themselves out? Obviously it shouldn't carry on.
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Well, their "saving money" is not a good look and again, they shouldn't be carrying on with this **** (my asterisks).
"Just
tfw756rider
On Moderation
Right... I don't know about Northern or West Midlands Trains, but haven't Transport for Wales literally been telling CAF that they're disappointed by what they've been doing? (yes, Stadler as well, but CAF seem to be the worse offender). That means that they should improve and meet the needs of the operator, and I hope they understand that at some point or another.
Peter Sarf
Established Member
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If that’s how CAF operate and there’s no contractual mechanism for penalising them, then TfW being disappointed won’t really count for much.
tfw756rider
On Moderation
I remember James Price (Transport for Wales CEO) mentioned a while back that protesting could even be an option.
Dai Corner
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Protesting? Crowds outside CAF''s depot chanting "Fix Our Trains"?
tfw756rider
On Moderation
James will know better than I do.
nigelsporne
Member
CAF is short for 'Call a fitter' isn't it?
Irrespective of whether that's how CAF operate, surely when contracts were being drawn up, availability of spares and/or availability of the fleet for use should have been considered, with penalties for failing to meet contractual levels.
Another downside of the fragmentation of the railway industry is that each individual TOC probably has relatively little experience of negotiating contracts in the railway industry, or seemingly, a best practice guide to steer them in the right direction (as TOCs and their owners are competing eith one another for contracts).
But it's not as though there was no precedent for including availability of trains for service within contracts. ISTR that some of the contracts with Hitachi specify the daily availability for service of a certain number / proportion of IETs, with payments to Hitachi being reduced if availability falls short.
Hopefully GBR teams will be better able to draw upon and learn from the experiences of previous contractual arrangements, and to ensure that such matters are comprehensively covered, to avoid the issues arising from them. That alone could lead to significant savings for the tax-payer and increased reliability of services for passengers / customers.
nigelsporne
Member
Valid points indeed. At the end of the day the Manufacturer and the TOC should be considering the end user, the travelling public. It may cost more initially but the public are not going to be concerned with the contractual niceties. All they want to do is get to work or home on time. CAF and TfW need to get this sorted so that the public in Wales gets the service they deserve. Having just spent a week travelling around on 197s I must say they all performed faultlessly.
You mean that the guard didn't once have to reset the toilet, that none of the engines were isolated and that the aircon compressors were all working? Did you buy a lottery ticket?
nigelsporne
Member
Ha ha. No not to my knowledge. I enjoyed my trips and wondered what all the fuss was about!
Dai Corner
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Wasn't the contract originally negotiated by Keolis, who held the franchise before operations were nationalised during the COVID lockdowns? They're an international transport operator with plenty of experience.
FrontSideBus
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Is it my imagination or are the engines/aircon units a lot more noisier than Northern 195's?
On a recent service back from Holyhead, I at first sat in the middle, but after a few minutes decided I'd had enough of that drone and went for a seat over the bogie instead!
On a recent service back from Holyhead, I at first sat in the middle, but after a few minutes decided I'd had enough of that drone and went for a seat over the bogie instead!
Well in that case, it's a shame they didn't draw upon that experience. But perhaps by the time the contracts were actually signed, it was clear that Keolis wouldn't have to live with the consequences ...
Indeed. I travel on 197s weekly, about to board one actually. There were air con faults last year, which I understand were fixed with a software update. I've never had a 197 fail on me so I also wonder what all the fuss is about!
It'll be interesting to see how CAF perform when the ETCS units are in service on the Cambrian. Currently they are often calling upon those units to replace non-ETCS units that are long term stopped. Once the ETCS units are in service they won't be able to draft them in to cover as they'll be required for service elsewhere.
Hopefully by then the 231's will be on the Cheltenham, Ebbw Vale and Maestegs so that should free up about 7 units. But 197s might be required for extra services like the Ebbw Vale-Newport (currently 150s) and the long forgotten Liverpool-Cardiff service if that is still happening.
They have also struggled even with the help of these extra units.
197026 and 197037 are both now shown as accepted and ran to Holyhead last night https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:05941/2025-08-18/detailed#allox_id=1
tfw756rider
On Moderation
As I understand it, it will be the 398s entering service that will allow the 756/1s to move onto their intended routes, which will in turn allow the 231s to move onto their intended routes, which will in turn allow the number of 197s covering on the 231s' intended routes to be freed up for that number of 197s' intended routes.
The estimated date range of entry of service of the 197s on the Cambrian that I've heard has been slightly later than that for the 398s (which will cause the aforementioned cascade including the 231s changing routes).
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Christian Schm
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I believe TfW does get some penalty payments from CAF, and they do help with TfW financial position, but they feel they don’t make CAF improve.
And reputation does matter. I think it was Alsthom that won quite a few of early privatisation contracts, but then nothing for a while because their after sales/care was so poor.
And reputation does matter. I think it was Alsthom that won quite a few of early privatisation contracts, but then nothing for a while because their after sales/care was so poor.
The 0910 Milford Haven to Mancheater is a 150 and then showing on RTT as attaching to a 3 car 197 at Swansea. Clearly that won't happen! But TFW are going to come into difficuly when a Sprinter deputises for 197 and there is booked attachment to another 197. I guess it will simply be swapped and run as a 3 car from Swansea unless another 2 car 197.can somehow be found. This is why it's easier for the likes of Maesteg and Pembroke Dock to use 150s if they ate short on 197s as these don't usually attach to anything