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Service reductions to save money?

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stevieinselby

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What about having Crosscountry run no further north than York and no further south than Basingstoke, and having connections with services to/from London which would otherwise empty as they travel further from London. So making the network work in a more efficient way by recycling spare capacity.

Some of the released staff/stock costs could be redeployed to other parts of the Crosscountry network.

Not saying this should happen. Just seems to fit the requirements of this thread.
There is no surplus capacity on the ECML. Cancelling XC trains will make the overcrowding on LNER and TPX worse, as well as reducing the convenience of travel between major cities for a significant number of passengers. Cutting XC services short at York would be a disastrous move, and is not at all what the spirit of this thread is about.
 
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JamesRowden

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There is no surplus capacity on the ECML. Cancelling XC trains will make the overcrowding on LNER and TPX worse, as well as reducing the convenience of travel between major cities for a significant number of passengers. Cutting XC services short at York would be a disastrous move, and is not at all what the spirit of this thread is about.
I thought there was an extra hourly LNER to north of York service being added anyway?

Are the LNER services not busier South of York than North?
 

Bletchleyite

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TfL beg to differ.

There are pragmatic reasons (mostly relating to traffic congestion) why TfL say a bus service on that headway doesn't require a published timetable, but I don't agree with that when it comes to rail.

I'd say an absolute minimum of 6tph, but probably better. I don't agree with TfGM's view that 5tph is enough certainly!

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I thought there was an extra hourly LNER to north of York service being added anyway?

There is yes. I'd certainly not be looking at cutting any ECML IC services other than maybe the non core extensions like Lincoln and Bradford. Demand is high and it's as close to paying its way as any of the railway is.
 

bramling

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TfL beg to differ.

I’d say it depends on the location, and varies for individuals. For most places some people absolutely seem to treat 4tph as turn up and go, and you can see this by the fact that people start arriving on the platform as soon as a train has departed. However not everyone does - my local station has 4tph to London spaced evenly, and I would tend to aim for a specific service.
 

Horizon22

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I’d say it depends on the location, and varies for individuals. For most places some people absolutely seem to treat 4tph as turn up and go, and you can see this by the fact that people start arriving on the platform as soon as a train has departed. However not everyone does - my local station has 4tph to London spaced evenly, and I would tend to aim for a specific service.

I think an even 15 minutes is quite different to a 22-8–22-8 timing, so the frequency and interval are important in this regard.

Personally I’d prefer 6tph / 10 minute waits for true turn-up-and-go but I’ve lived at stations with 8tph and still check train times as they were not regularly spaced.

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I'd say an absolute minimum of 6tph, but probably better. I don't agree with TfGM's view that 5tph is enough certainly!

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5tph is very awkward to plan anyway, so 6tph would be more likely. You could probably use the same number of units anyway by cutting down turnaround times at terminus slightly.
 

yorksrob

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I find it astonishing that people wouldn't consider 5tph as turn up and go. Whitby passengers are raising our eyebrows !
 

stevieinselby

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I find it astonishing that people wouldn't consider 5tph as turn up and go. Whitby passengers are raising our eyebrows !
Like the time when my brother was complaining that the night buses in London were "only" every 30 minutes ... while my local bus up here in Yorkshire was only every 2 hours at best and last bus at 7pm ...
 

A S Leib

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4tph is frequent enough that I wouldn't check a timetable if it were the only or least frequent service I was getting, or if having to go by road to the station, but that I would aim for a specific service if having a less frequent / advance ticket connection after it.
 

yorksrob

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Like the time when my brother was complaining that the night buses in London were "only" every 30 minutes ... while my local bus up here in Yorkshire was only every 2 hours at best and last bus at 7pm ...

Yes, we know up north !
 

Class 317

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For me or would be reducing service levels on quieter mid week days on intercity routes where they carry quite a bit of fresh air on some routes.

To go with this increasing service levels at busier times or days of the week would seem sensible to deploy resources where they can carry most revenue.

Combining more routes as through services across current TOC boundaries also has potential to save unit and crew diagrams in a GBR set up.

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I'm not convinced at all.

I often get these services on a Friday and whilst not packed to the rafters, they're busy enough.

Examples that spring to mind are Leeds - Lancaster, Leeds - Hull, Manchester - Buxton and (of course) Middlesbrough to Whitby.
For me it would be more likely to cut services Monday to Thursday with higher frequencies on Fridays.

Also some late evening services are very lightly loaded Monday to Thursday. Maybe opportunities exist to cut these and add additional Friday / Saturday late evening services to better serve demand?
 
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JonathanH

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Combining more routes as through services across current TOC boundaries also has potential to save unit and crew diagrams in a GBR set up.
I seem to recall that traincrew establishments don't like 'losing work' to other depots, which gives rise to things like swaps of traincrew at Cambridge between Norwich and Stansted even though there has now been through train working for some time. While there may be a coming together of the workforce, is a 'GBR set up' going to have a stronger hand on such things than the previous train companies? There is also the cost of route learning to consider.
 

dk1

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I seem to recall that traincrew establishments don't like 'losing work' to other depots, which gives rise to things like swaps of traincrew at Cambridge between Norwich and Stansted even though there has now been through train working for some time. While there may be a coming together of the workforce, is a 'GBR set up' going to have a stronger hand on such things than the previous train companies? There is also the cost of route learning to consider.
Yes I can’t see that ever changing. The only way Norwich drivers could venture south of Cambridge is if all Cambridge drivers were permitted to sign Ely-Norwich. The cost would however be substantial and the current set up works very well most of the time.
 

Starmill

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I'd say an absolute minimum of 6tph, but probably better. I don't agree with TfGM's view that 5tph is enough certainly!
They've cut it now to 4tph on Sundays anyway for a variety of stops.

Also didn't the T&W Metro withdraw their timetable publication?

Obviously in both cases they're actually still there in the open data which just makes the whole thing a joke. Even London Underground publish a timetable book for the Metropolitan line.

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I agree. Southport justifies hourly, whether it be to Pic or Vic.
I think you would be extremely unpopular in Parbold or Burscough if you said that. Also I think you wouldn't have adequate capacity for Gathurst and Appley Bridge.
 
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What about having Crosscountry run no further north than York and no further south than Basingstoke, and having connections with services to/from London which would otherwise empty as they travel further from London. So making the network work in a more efficient way by recycling spare capacity.

Some of the released staff/stock costs could be redeployed to other parts of the Crosscountry network.

Not saying this should happen. Just seems to fit the requirements of this thread.
The hourly XC Edinburgh-Plymouth and Manchester-Bournemouth train services need to continue as now and not be cut back in any way.

I have long called for the XC extensions beyond Edinburgh to/from Glasgow and to/from Dundee and Aberdeen to end and for the released stock to be redeployed.
 

Starmill

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The hourly XC Edinburgh-Plymouth and Manchester-Bournemouth train services need to continue as now and not be cut back in any way.

I have long called for the XC extensions beyond Edinburgh to/from Glasgow and to/from Dundee and Aberdeen to end and for the released stock to be redeployed.
This is reasonable but note that LNER have ceded their train to Glasgow on the same rationale you mention.

So that leaves the long term market for Newcastle - Glasgow wide open to Lumo. Given historically BR and later privatised operators offered at least a few trains per day direct I think ceding that to open access entirely is a poor choice.
 

A S Leib

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Even London Underground publish a timetable book for the Metropolitan line
Although I don't think that includes the Uxbridge branch, and having timetables of Chesham and Chiltern and through Aldgate – Watford and semi-/fast services is more useful than if there was a 4tph+ service without exception.
 

yorksrob

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I think you would be extremely unpopular in Parbold or Burscough if you said that. Also I think you wouldn't have adequate capacity for Gathurst and Appley Bridge.

Apologies - meant to say half-hourly.
 

6Gman

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The Euston-MKC local absolutely is getting a big capacity gain anyway, from 8.350 to 10.730.

A lot of the routes under discussion aren't super busy during the day on weekdays - this is where most of the likely money-saving cuts could fall. An example of one that was already done (which was moaned about a bit but was probably appropriate) was taking Aylesbury Vale down from 2 to 1tph for a few hours during the day on weekdays, and I think that could easily be widened to 1000-1500ish. In school holidays longer trains can run than the 2-car which would be more than sufficient at those times otherwise. The drop to hourly Saturday and Sunday was maybe less of a good idea but it is adequate for the numbers using 3-4 car trains.
But does taking out a few middle of the day services actually save much? The units are already there and - in many cases - the staff are too, unless there's a suggestion the unions might accept split turns (they won't)?
 

Starmill

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Apologies - meant to say half-hourly.
Ah sorry - that all makes more sense now!

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But does taking out a few middle of the day services actually save much? The units are already there and - in many cases - the staff are too, unless there's a suggestion the unions might accept split turns (they won't)?
It's definitely possible it could save a small but meaningful amount if done as part of wider diagram efficiencies. Note that this kind of productivity drive takes a couple of years at the best of times to work through, and comes with a slightly bigger pay rise, lasting in perpetuity, than would otherwise be offered. So it's crucial it's done right the first time or it ends up costing more in the long term not less.

If all you're doing is cutting the miles off, you probably won't save anything at all on drivers. So the saving is just any non-drivers and the traction fuel / electricity, and maintenance cycle miles.
 
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stevieinselby

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For me or would be reducing service levels on quieter mid week days on intercity routes where they carry quite a bit of fresh air on some routes.
That can be easier said than done. Timetables are complex beasts, especially on intercity routes that interface with lots of other services along the way. Where intercity trains run every half-hour, they typically don't all have the same stopping pattern but some stations will only get an hourly service. If you just cut alternate services to only run an hourly service then some of those intermediate stations would lose their service altogether, so you would then have to either leave them out in the cold or adjust the timetable, which would then have knock-on effects on other services if on certain days the intercity services are running at different times.
To go with this increasing service levels at busier times or days of the week would seem sensible to deploy resources where they can carry most revenue.
While staff may, to some extent, be able to be redeployed from quieter times to busier times, as they are limited to working for only about a third of the full weekly roster, the same isn't true of trains. Taking some units out of service on a Tuesday doesn't give you any additional units to use on a Friday, and leaving busy station throats with fewer trains in the middle of the day doesn't mean you can push more trains through that bottleneck in the peaks. Infrastructure has a hard maximum limit on its usage, and the more its usage is skewed towards maximum at certain times of the week only and left relatively idle at other times, the more inefficient it becomes and the harder it is to cover its costs.
Combining more routes as through services across current TOC boundaries also has potential to save unit and crew diagrams in a GBR set up.
While combining routes can bring about efficiencies, it can also bring about inefficiencies as well.

The EMR service from Liverpool to Norwich is a prime example of this. A journey taking about 5½ hours, covering over 250 miles, and calling at 18 stations along the way.
Conventional wisdom is that the section of the route west of Nottingham is a lot busier than the section east of Nottingham, so is run with double units, with one of them decoupling at Nottingham and joining the next service heading back to Liverpool. It needs crew changes en route.

All of this adds a lot of complications. It increases the risk of poor reliability and punctuality. It is more restrictive when timetabling and diagramming because you have more dependencies to take into account. It limits your flexibility to adapt and adjust the service to meet emerging demands on one part of the route if those changes can't easily be accommodated on other parts.

Sure, there will be some instances where you can improve things by combining services, but where that is the case there's no impediment to making those changes now, services can and do swap between TOCs as needed. But the idea that this is going to be a significant or widespread benefit from GBR doesn't stack up.
 

Bletchleyite

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I find it astonishing that people wouldn't consider 5tph as turn up and go. Whitby passengers are raising our eyebrows !

Because I have no desire to wait on a platform for 11 minutes when I can walk up just as the train is arriving. Journey times on foot are generally consistent to a few seconds unless there's something to cause a longer variation like a pelican crossing.

Metrolink is 5tph by the way.
 
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This is reasonable but note that LNER have ceded their train to Glasgow on the same rationale you mention.

So that leaves the long term market for Newcastle - Glasgow wide open to Lumo. Given historically BR and later privatised operators offered at least a few trains per day direct I think ceding that to open access entirely is a poor choice.
There are over one hundred Scotrail trains a day each way between Edinburgh and the two Glasgow stations Glasgow Central and Glasgow Queen Street serving many other stations in the Central Belt of Scotland. I cannot therefore see the point in extending any Newcastle-Edinburgh train services to Glasgow.

It will be interesting to see if Lumo picks up a significant number of extra passengers with their one or two daily extensions to Glasgow Queen Street but their limited number of services are already well used and there are plenty of frequent connecting Scotrail services between Edinburgh and stations all over the Central Belt of Scotland for passengers travelling between Edinburgh and stations on the ECML South of Edinburgh.
 

Bertie the bus

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Because I have no desire to wait on a platform for 11 minutes when I can walk up just as the train is arriving. Journey times on foot are generally consistent to a few seconds unless there's something to cause a longer variation like a pelican crossing.
The vast majority of people do not know within a couple of seconds how long it takes to walk somewhere and also a large majority of people who use the railway don't arrive on the platform a few seconds before their train is due to depart.
 

Falcon1200

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Which are the other suburban services that carry ‘fresh air’?

Pretty much all of them between about 10am and 3pm on weekdays outside school holidays.

The suburban services around Glasgow, which I use regularly, are very far from being quiet being 1000 and 1500, School holidays or not, and any reduction in service is neither desired or justifiable.
 

pokemonsuper9

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I reckon they do to a minute or so if it's somewhere, eg their local station, they walk to daily.
Most commuters from my local station arrive there before me, and I arrive on the platform with 4 minutes to spare, typically there's two people arriving at about the same time as me and few arriving after I get there.
 

NCT

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The most efficient railway operation is one (peak busters excepted - we accept they are expensive because they bring in the revenue) with a consistent all-day rhythm with predictable rolling stock and crew circuits.
 
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