Penalty fare and bullying by revenue protection officer

[kempc23]

Hello

I had an extremely distressing experience yesterday at Chelmsford train station. I travelled from my home station and touched in. I changed at Farringdon and touched in. My final change was at Stratford, where I touched in. From Stratford, I went two stops to Chelmsford (stop on way was Shenfield).

When I arrived at Chelsmford, I couldnt tap out. I spoke to the revenue protection officer, who laughed and said "you are out of London now, you need to pay a penalty fare". I explained to him that I had touched in at Stratford, and he said that you could only use contactless to the previous stop (Shenfield) and there were signs everywhere in Stratford. Honestly, I did not see one, but I am sure they must be there. That said, I am almost certain there was no such sign where I touched in on platform 15a.

At first, he said to me that what I could do was quickly leg it back to Shenfield, buy a ticket there, then buy another ticket back. I thought this was a really strange thing to say, so I said - what is the point in that, cant you just let me buy the ticket here. He refused. I asked if I could buy the ticket on my phone, he also refused. He said I would have to speak to the nearby guard to pay the penalty fare.

We had an ongoing discussion about whether they could let me through or not, as it was a genuine mistake. The conversation turned heated when I mentioned what he said to me previously about going back to Shenfield, in front of his colleague. The initial RPO at that point became very aggressive and threatened to call the police. I panicked and asked him why, he said because I was refusing to pay the penalty fare. I said I was not refusing and wanted to pay it just to get away from him.

He then asked for my name and address, which I gave to him. He checked it against something, without telling me what he was doing. He said "nothing comes up", and essentially accused me of lying about my details, which I hadnt. They repeatedly asked me if I had any ID, which I did not. He then said - I saw you trying to pay with your Monzo card, what about your Monzo app on your phone. I said there was no way I was going to share my banking app with someone. He then said that he had enough and called the police. Again, I was really panicked here so I showed him my details from my banking app, as I just wanted to leave. I felt I had been completely bullied and coerced into doing this. Surely it cannot be legal for someone to effectively demand (under threat of being arrested) to see my banking app.

At this point I paid the standard fare, and said I would be appealing the fine. I completed the paperwork with the other officer, note that it says on it "this sheet must be checked, signed by the passenger and retained by the inspector". Note that it is not signed, nor was it retained by the inspector. There is a bit on the ticket that says "tear off here", but I still have it. Should they have got me to sign this? Note that at one point the other officer seemed to be very uncomfortable with the way the aggressive one was behaving, and seemed to be trying to help me, by explaining how and when I had to appeal.

Quite frankly, the RPO was a complete arsehole, and seemed to be behaving almost police like in manner, and taking great delight in making sure I knew that he was the one in control of this situation, under threat of arrest. Do you think any of his above actions are illegal? Can they really effectively force me into sharing my banking app, under threat of arrest? Note I had already provided my name and date of birth. Would you suggest I make a complaint about him? I didnt take a note of his details, he did show me his badge, but I was extremely distressed so didnt make a note of it.

From what I gather, it sounds unlikely I can appeal this. It feels almost like a trap to be honest! As I am almost certain that where I touched in, there was no signage. I thought Chelmsford was inside the contactless zone. Its only a few minutes outside, not that it matters. Do you think that the fact I have not signed anything, and they have not retained the lower part of the penalty fare is grounds for appeal? I am pissed off about the penalty fare but I will just pay it if required so it goes away. It is £100 or £50 within 20 days. But I am far, far more angry and upset about how I was bullied by someone, which was entirely uncalled for. It completely ruined my evening.

Many thanks for any help.

 

[Snow1964]

There are 2 parts to this :

You didn't understand the contactless tapping in is a local scheme (there are actually a few different ones around the country) but need to buy a rail ticket to anywhere outside one, or between two local schemes. A genuine error should have been a penalty. These aren't fines, they are a set amount and to make you realise you need to be more careful in buying tickets. Pay the reduced amount promptly and put it down to experience.

The completely unprofessional behaviour by someone who sounds like he/she learnt from a dubious training manual and just wanted to belittle a customer for no reason. I think I will leave it to others to comment on quality or behaviour of staff.

 

[kempc23]

Yes, and I accept that the first part is my mistake. Its a genuine, and reasonable one. I accept that I should have bought a ticket, and expect there are zero grounds for appeal, even the lack of signature/receipt. The thing I am more concerned is the behaviour of the RPO. He was extremely aggressive and intimidating. I have no doubt he behaves like this regularly, and if I can do anything to help stop this happening to someone else, then I want to pursue that.

I have just remembered one other factor - He told me he had started recording several minutes before. I said I didnt appreciate that, and he should have asked permission. Although on this I gather it is private property (?) so he didnt need my consent. Again this was just used by him to be controlling and coercive.

 

[Jan Mayen]

Others are likely to give advice about appealing. I guess the lesson here is to know the boundaries of whichever contactless scheme you are using (there are several. I have the Southern KeyGo card, Oyster and use my bank card on local buses).

As for ID, all I'd likely show show is my Season Ticket photocard.

 

[kempc23]

Others are likely to give advice about appealing. I guess the lesson here is to know the boundaries of whichever contactless scheme you are using (there are several. I have the Southern KeyGo card, Oyster and use my bank card on local buses).

As for ID, all I'd likely show show is my Season Ticket photocard.

Thanks, I dont have a season ticket photocard. I have a railcard, but not sure that has a photo on it? I was panicking at the time so didnt think of that. Honestly, he was absolutely insistent that I did what he asked and showed my banking app, or I would get arrested. I dont think this was about seeing ID, this was about doing what I was told.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It is very common at Milton Keynes Central for people who have arrived there with tickets to Bletchley from the south to be offered a choice between going back and paying a PF. Not taking this was a very bad choice as a PF is definitely due in such circumstances.

Maybe by mentioning it to his colleague he could have got in trouble.

 

[saismee]

AIUI, Chelmsford is a hot-spot for fare dodgers and a lot of RPIs stay around there, though touching in without realising isn't exactly uncommon - it happens further up the line on intercity services that don't stop in the contactless zone. I've seen the warnings about contactless to Stansted but I've never noticed any about travelling beyond Shenfield. Some train crew do announce it on 720s.

As for the behaviour of the RPI, I can assure you that behaviour like that is not acceptable at all and is not how the RPI will have been trained. You absolutely should file a complaint against them with their ID (their ID number will be on the penalty fare) and the time and date.

I don't see a penalty fare appeal being successful but you should still post a picture of it (details redacted) as someone may be able to find a technicality to get it appealed.

 

[AlterEgo]

At first, he said to me that what I could do was quickly leg it back to Shenfield, buy a ticket there, then buy another ticket back. I thought this was a really strange thing to say

It is strange. You were caught bang to rights and you should have been issued a Penalty Fare there and then. The RPI here is trying to let you off having dealt with you alone and only verbally, by effectively going "I'll pretend I didn't see that". So, you really ought to have seized this get out of jail free card I'm afraid.

, so I said - what is the point in that, cant you just let me buy the ticket here. He refused.

Unsurprising - that will be auditable and he would be asked why he sold you a ticket when you should have been penalty fared.

I asked if I could buy the ticket on my phone, he also refused. He said I would have to speak to the nearby guard to pay the penalty fare.

We had an ongoing discussion about whether they could let me through or not, as it was a genuine mistake.

They wouldn't just let you through. Penalty fares are there to penalise genuine mistakes, and you were, on the face of it, liable for one. It's really the only way they can deal with you at this point.

The conversation turned heated when I mentioned what he said to me previously about going back to Shenfield, in front of his colleague.

Yeah, he's not supposed to do that and you've either embarrassed him by mentioning it or even got him into trouble.

The initial RPO at that point became very aggressive and threatened to call the police. I panicked and asked him why, he said because I was refusing to pay the penalty fare. I said I was not refusing and wanted to pay it just to get away from him.

He then asked for my name and address, which I gave to him. He checked it against something, without telling me what he was doing. He said "nothing comes up", and essentially accused me of lying about my details, which I hadnt. They repeatedly asked me if I had any ID, which I did not. He then said - I saw you trying to pay with your Monzo card, what about your Monzo app on your phone. I said there was no way I was going to share my banking app with someone. He then said that he had enough and called the police. Again, I was really panicked here so I showed him my details from my banking app, as I just wanted to leave. I felt I had been completely bullied and coerced into doing this. Surely it cannot be legal for someone to effectively demand (under threat of being arrested) to see my banking app.

If the RPI is not satisfied your details are legitimate, they may suspect you of committing the separate offence of failing to provide your details. This is a legal obligation you have, although the fact you aren't on the electoral roll or credit register would not, in my view, be enough to warrant suspicion. However, either way, RPIs, if dissatisfied with your credentials, are entitled to call the police, who have extra powers to ascertain them from you.

At this point I paid the standard fare, and said I would be appealing the fine. I completed the paperwork with the other officer, note that it says on it "this sheet must be checked, signed by the passenger and retained by the inspector". Note that it is not signed, nor was it retained by the inspector. There is a bit on the ticket that says "tear off here", but I still have it. Should they have got me to sign this? Note that at one point the other officer seemed to be very uncomfortable with the way the aggressive one was behaving, and seemed to be trying to help me, by explaining how and when I had to appeal.

Please show us the penalty fare with your name and details removed.

It may be the penalty fare has been filled out improperly, although you should know you have no grounds of appeal based on "making a mistake" or "inspector was rude" - all that matters is that the notice was issued and filled in according to the Railway Penalty Fares Regulations 2018: https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2018/366/contents

You may also have a line of appeal based on signage at Stratford; I don't know the station well, and the regulations stipulate the notices must be at the "entrances" and no not have to be on the platforms themselves. Other posters here know the station better and may be able to advise if the signage is compliant.

Do you think any of his above actions are illegal?

No.

Can they really effectively force me into sharing my banking app, under threat of arrest?

They can't "force you", but they are absolutely entitled to ask, and they are entitled to call the police to ascertain your credentials. It's relatively common for RPIs to ask to see something on your phone which would provide incontrovertible evidence of your address, age, or name - although asking to see a banking app is probably best avoided from an RPI's point of view (for their own safety from allegations!).

Note I had already provided my name and date of birth. Would you suggest I make a complaint about him?

That's really up to you - none of us were there. He doesn't seem to have done anything procedurally wrong other than attempt to let you off at first, and when you refused this, it pigeonholed his options, and when you unintentionally grassed him up to the other inspector this is where things went south. If his demeanour changed there that's on him, not you, though - he's supposed to be professional and treat you with respect.

I have just remembered one other factor - He told me he had started recording several minutes before. I said I didnt appreciate that, and he should have asked permission. Although on this I gather it is private property (?) so he didnt need my consent. Again this was just used by him to be controlling and coercive.

Recording interactions is entirely routine for RPIs and is as much about protecting them as it is you. They will switch the camera on once there is some sort of conflict. They are entitled to record you without your consent, which does not need to be asked; you are in a public space with no expectation of privacy. However, if you do wish to make a complaint, you may find that it is useful the bodycam was recording, as it may substantiate your allegations against him.

 

[styles]

I had an extremely distressing experience yesterday at Chelmsford train station. I travelled from my home station and touched in. I changed at Farringdon and touched in. My final change was at Stratford, where I touched in. From Stratford, I went two stops to Chelmsford (stop on way was Shenfield).

When I arrived at Chelsmford, I couldnt tap out. I spoke to the revenue protection officer, who laughed and said "you are out of London now, you need to pay a penalty fare". I explained to him that I had touched in at Stratford, and he said that you could only use contactless to the previous stop (Shenfield) and there were signs everywhere in Stratford. Honestly, I did not see one, but I am sure they must be there. That said, I am almost certain there was no such sign where I touched in on platform 15a.

At first, he said to me that what I could do was quickly leg it back to Shenfield, buy a ticket there, then buy another ticket back. I thought this was a really strange thing to say, so I said - what is the point in that, cant you just let me buy the ticket here. He refused. I asked if I could buy the ticket on my phone, he also refused. He said I would have to speak to the nearby guard to pay the penalty fare.

You've been given good advice on most of this, in particular it would be helpful to see the penalty fare with your identifying information redcated.

But in all honesty, on being informed that you hadn't/couldn't pay the correct fare, and being offered the opportunity to get out of the situation by going back a stop and buying a valid ticket, you really should've taken this. The guy was trying to do you a favour really. In general, if revenue protection offer you the opportunity to go away and buy a ticket valid for your journey, it's wise to take it. Just in case you find yourself in this situation in the future!

 

[WesternLancer]

In a way you need to be careful what you wish for I guess.

He tried to find a way to let you off but understandably that method seemed bizarre to you so you pushed back on it. He’ll probably not suggest it to anyone else today!

If he’d been playing by the book it seems to me he should have just issued you a Penalty Fare politely, told you that you had a right of appeal and left it at that.

He maybe tried to think of things from your point of view, always worth you trying to think of it from his point of view.

Not that this helps much.

I’d recommend you get on the electoral register at your current address if you aren’t already as a bit of more general advice.

I should add that you have my sympathy about the way this resulted in an interaction that then ended up distressing and stressful for you over this.

If there are grounds for an appeal people here will advise you how to maximise your chances of success on that front. It’s not dealt with by the train company so you could complain separately about the way you were treated but it may be worth tackling any appeal first.

 

[Watershed]

For future reference, this map here shows where you can use contactless. It was the first result that came up when I searched "National Rail contactless validity map". As you can see, that only extends as far as Shenfield on the route towards Chelmsford.

If you're travelling to a station that isn't in the London Zones it is a good idea to check that map to make sure it's in the contactless area before you start your journey.

There should also be signs/maps at the station and on the train which indicate where contactless is valid, and ideally automated announcements which would say that X is the last station where it's valid. However it's not compulsory for operators to have such signs/announcements; failing to have them would be unlikely to invalidate your Penalty Fare.

A lack of signs warning you about PFs, or the signs not meeting the Regulations' requirements as to placement and wording, could give rise to appeal grounds. This is probably the avenue most likely to give rise to a successful appeal.

Also, it's worth noting that you don't have to touch standalone yellow readers like those you'll find at Farringdon or Stratford, when you're in the middle of your journey. In fact, in some cases touching these readers could result in you being charged the wrong fare - or even two maximum fares for what the system believes to be two incomplete journeys.

You only need to touch yellow readers when you pass through a barrier/gateline. The standalone yellow readers are for starting or finishing your Oyster/contactless journey, if you're switching to/from something else like a paper ticket or eTicket.

 

[MotCO]

Yes, definitely upload a copy of your Penalty Fare documentation. On many occasions, the PF is not correctly completed allowing a successful appeal. There are many experts on here who can advise or identify any errors.

 

[soil]

>

It is £100 or £50 within 20 days.

Are you sure?

That could not be valid.
It should be £118.10/£68.10, I think - another figure might be correct, but there's no provision to charge a zero fare except in a CTA, which this wasn't.

 

[bb21]

I'm quite frankly shocked he offered you the opportunity to go back to Shenfield therefore avoiding your Penalty Fare. Maybe he tried to de-escalate the situation with you believing that you made a genuine mistake, but your subsequent actions gave hints of deliberate fare evasion, amongst other things, which is why his attitude changed. This case is a perfect demonstration why discretion is often best not used. He tried to do you a favour and ended up being accused of bullying. Your evening was ruined because of your own actions and no one else's.

 

[Parham Wood]

Very unprofessional of the employee to laugh and to offer an option to return. Clearly the OP did not understand about address details and the options she had and IMO these should have been explained to her in a polite and calming way. Whatever happens I would be requesting a copy of the bodycam and putting in a formal complaint about the behaviour, but do follow the advice here regarding the penalty, paying/appealing.

 

[Jimini]

Daft question maybe, but if the OP had taken the RPI’s advice and traveled back to Shenfield, what happens if there’s a revenue check on the way there from Chelmsford?

 

[styles]

Daft question maybe, but if the OP had taken the RPI’s advice and traveled back to Shenfield, what happens if there’s a revenue check on the way there from Chelmsford?

Given that revenue protection person number 1 went off script, our guess is as good as yours!

Person 2 may issue a penalty fare and OP would have to appeal and hope for the best. Person 2 may say fine and follow them to make sure they do it. Person 2 may contact person 1 to try and confirm things. Who knows. Strictly speaking they should issue a penalty fare of course.

 

[bb21]

Daft question maybe, but if the OP had taken the RPI’s advice and traveled back to Shenfield, what happens if there’s a revenue check on the way there from Chelmsford?

No one knows, hence the correct action by the RPI would have been to just issue the Penalty Fare and not try and be "helpful".

Very unprofessional of the employee to laugh and to offer an option to return.

Clearly trying to be lighter hearted and friendly got the RPI in trouble because they did not let the passenger off at the end. Had them been let off I am sure the description would have been "what a friendly revenue inspector".

 

[styles]

Clearly trying to be lighter hearted and friendly got the RPI in trouble because they did not let the passenger off at the end. Had them been let off I am sure the description would have been "what a friendly revenue inspector".

I'm in favour of revenue protection and guards using discretion.

But if they do this they need to be clear with customers that discretion is being exercised, what the alternative is, what the risk is, etc.

 

[bb21]

I'm in favour of revenue protection and guards using discretion.

But if they do this they need to be clear with customers that discretion is being exercised, what the alternative is, what the risk is, etc.

It's an extremely tricky issue because undoubtedly there are lots of informal local practices which exist around the network, which do not strictly follow the rules set down. Ideally yes we would have a situation like you described, but when this is outside the rules already (I don't know if GA formally allow their RPIs to suggest such to the passenger but I suspect not), no revenue staff would put their neck on the line by giving any such written instruction to the passenger so that they could present them later, nor would the passenger be willing to listen to all the finer details being explained to them (in most cases) or worse, only remember the bits they wanted to hear.

Discretion is very much needed for revenue protection to work effectively and be acceptable to the general public but it is very difficult to be prescriptive where they may be appropriate, therefore they bring with them many grey areas which I don't think we can have perfect answers for.

 

[WesternLancer]

It's an extremely tricky issue because undoubtedly there are lots of informal local practices which exist around the network, which do not strictly follow the rules set down. Ideally yes we would have a situation like you described, but when this is outside the rules already (I don't know if GA formally allow their RPIs to suggest such to the passenger but I suspect not), no revenue staff would put their neck on the line by giving any such written instruction to the passenger so that they could present them later, nor would the passenger be willing to listen to all the finer details being explained to them (in most cases) or worse, only remember the bits they wanted to hear.

Discretion is very much needed for revenue protection to work effectively and be acceptable to the general public but it is very difficult to be prescriptive where they may be appropriate, therefore they bring with them many grey areas which I don't think we can have perfect answers for.

These are very important points made well imho.

 

[enyoueffsea]

Really interesting situation. Particularly to see the split opinion on the RPI’s actions/advice.

RPIs often can’t win really. Had he have gone straight to a PF, the OP would probably follow suit of the countless others on here complaining about their heavy handed approach, lack of empathy and unfriendly manner.

RPI tries to be lighthearted and offer a get out of jail free card, to then be criticised, get themselves in trouble and have a complaint on the way.

From the RPI’s point of view, probably reaffirmed why following policy is best. From the passenger’s point of view, they’ve talked themselves into an expensive trip.

 

[simonw]

Hello

I had an extremely distressing experience yesterday at Chelmsford train station. I travelled from my home station and touched in. I changed at Farringdon and touched in. My final change was at Stratford, where I touched in. From Stratford, I went two stops to Chelmsford (stop on way was Shenfield).

When I arrived at Chelsmford, I couldnt tap out. I spoke to the revenue protection officer, who laughed and said "you are out of London now, you need to pay a penalty fare". I explained to him that I had touched in at Stratford, and he said that you could only use contactless to the previous stop (Shenfield) and there were signs everywhere in Stratford. Honestly, I did not see one, but I am sure they must be there. That said, I am almost certain there was no such sign where I touched in on platform 15a.

At first, he said to me that what I could do was quickly leg it back to Shenfield, buy a ticket there, then buy another ticket back. I thought this was a really strange thing to say, so I said - what is the point in that, cant you just let me buy the ticket here. He refused. I asked if I could buy the ticket on my phone, he also refused. He said I would have to speak to the nearby guard to pay the penalty fare.

We had an ongoing discussion about whether they could let me through or not, as it was a genuine mistake. The conversation turned heated when I mentioned what he said to me previously about going back to Shenfield, in front of his colleague. The initial RPO at that point became very aggressive and threatened to call the police. I panicked and asked him why, he said because I was refusing to pay the penalty fare. I said I was not refusing and wanted to pay it just to get away from him.

He then asked for my name and address, which I gave to him. He checked it against something, without telling me what he was doing. He said "nothing comes up", and essentially accused me of lying about my details, which I hadnt. They repeatedly asked me if I had any ID, which I did not. He then said - I saw you trying to pay with your Monzo card, what about your Monzo app on your phone. I said there was no way I was going to share my banking app with someone. He then said that he had enough and called the police. Again, I was really panicked here so I showed him my details from my banking app, as I just wanted to leave. I felt I had been completely bullied and coerced into doing this. Surely it cannot be legal for someone to effectively demand (under threat of being arrested) to see my banking app.

At this point I paid the standard fare, and said I would be appealing the fine. I completed the paperwork with the other officer, note that it says on it "this sheet must be checked, signed by the passenger and retained by the inspector". Note that it is not signed, nor was it retained by the inspector. There is a bit on the ticket that says "tear off here", but I still have it. Should they have got me to sign this? Note that at one point the other officer seemed to be very uncomfortable with the way the aggressive one was behaving, and seemed to be trying to help me, by explaining how and when I had to appeal.

Quite frankly, the RPO was a complete arsehole, and seemed to be behaving almost police like in manner, and taking great delight in making sure I knew that he was the one in control of this situation, under threat of arrest. Do you think any of his above actions are illegal? Can they really effectively force me into sharing my banking app, under threat of arrest? Note I had already provided my name and date of birth. Would you suggest I make a complaint about him? I didnt take a note of his details, he did show me his badge, but I was extremely distressed so didnt make a note of it.

From what I gather, it sounds unlikely I can appeal this. It feels almost like a trap to be honest! As I am almost certain that where I touched in, there was no signage. I thought Chelmsford was inside the contactless zone. Its only a few minutes outside, not that it matters. Do you think that the fact I have not signed anything, and they have not retained the lower part of the penalty fare is grounds for appeal? I am pissed off about the penalty fare but I will just pay it if required so it goes away. It is £100 or £50 within 20 days. But I am far, far more angry and upset about how I was bullied by someone, which was entirely uncalled for. It completely ruined my evening.

Many thanks for any help.

I don't see any bullying here. I'm assuming you are an adult with no disabilities that restrict your ability to navigate the transport system.

It would appear you failed to do any research into ticket validity. You travelled without a valid ticket and were, by your own admission offered a get out of jail free card by the inspector. You turned this offer down and soon after dropped the inspector in it.

You then failed to cooperate with the inspector.

He didn't ask you to share your banking app he asked you to prove you were who you asserted you were. Given your attitude up to that point, I think he was rightly suspicious.

Pay the fine and next time someone offers you a get out jail free card, say thank you very much.

 

[MallardLP]

I'm quite frankly shocked he offered you the opportunity to go back to Shenfield therefore avoiding your Penalty Fare. Maybe he tried to de-escalate the situation with you believing that you made a genuine mistake, but your subsequent actions gave hints of deliberate fare evasion, amongst other things, which is why his attitude changed. This case is a perfect demonstration why discretion is often best not used. He tried to do you a favour and ended up being accused of bullying. Your evening was ruined because of your own actions and no one else's.

Indeed
From recent travel on GA, there were automated announcements on board about contactless only being valid to Shenfield.

From memory, both of the subways at Stratford have GA posters about contactless only being valid to Shenfield as well.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Very unprofessional of the employee to laugh and to offer an option to return.

Is a stern demeanour and 'rules is rules' any more professional?

The RPO tried to do the OP a favour- "get back on the train and I've not seen it". Sadly the OP's sense of entitlement is off the charts. Not only were they not quite bright enough to accept the favour with good grace, they then tried to embarrass the RPO in front of his colleague. No wonder the RPO's demeanour changed!

 

[saismee]

Indeed
From recent travel on GA, there were automated announcements on board about contactless only being valid to Shenfield.

From memory, both of the subways at Stratford have GA posters about contactless only being valid to Shenfield as well.

From my own recent travel, the departure screens display that contactless/oyster is invalid for the same amount of time as when it shows the stops. I don't know if this is true for intercity services though.

 

[fandroid]

Sending people back is a pragmatic non-confrontation solution which ought to be policy and which the RPI should be mandated to offer. I've overtravelled by mistake several times and always been allowed to go straight back without penalty. The self-imposed punishment was that I was hideously late at my destination. For contactless overtravellers, why not make this RPI's offer one of the normal options available as a response? The dim contactless user is only going to increase in numbers as Project Oval expands along with its clones beyond London. They shouldn't be seen as yet another income gouging opportunity by DfT and GBR.

 

[Vexed]

Sending people back is a pragmatic non-confrontation solution which ought to be policy and which the RPI should be mandated to offer. I've overtravelled by mistake several times and always been allowed to go straight back without penalty. The self-imposed punishment was that I was hideously late at my destination. For contactless overtravellers, why not make this RPI's offer one of the normal options available as a response? The dim contactless user is only going to increase in numbers as Project Oval expands along with its clones beyond London. They shouldn't be seen as yet another income gouging opportunity by DfT and GBR.

I'm assuming you proactively approached the guard on the train back and said "I accidentally overtravelled, can I go back the way I came?" while the OP wasn't proactive as they assumed contactless was valid at their exit station. They didn't overtravel. So it's a different situation and I think the outcomes should be different.

Of course, the OP could have lied, but that doesn't really work when you're trying to tap out at a barrier line while also saying you're trying to get a train back the way you came. You can get between both platforms at Chelmsford without passing through a barrier line.

Generally I think there are sufficient announcements and notices about contactless validity. As saismee said in #26 the departure screen at Stratford says "Oyster and contactless cannot be used on Greater Anglia services beyond Shenfield" for relevant services. If someone decided to tune out announcements or info on departure boards because they are excessive (perfectly understandably I think!) then they need to take responsibility for not paying attention. I say that as someone who will quite often not read or listen in full to every announcement or note on the departure screen, but I accept that if I make a mistake it's my fault.

 

[Haywain]

The dim contactless user is only going to increase in numbers as Project Oval expands along with its clones beyond London.

I would argue that the further out it gets the lower the numbers will be as there are more people making journeys to points closer to London - that's why trains are generally more lightly loaded and less frequent further out.

 

[simonw]

The op hasn't been back since they made their post. I don't think we will see them again.