Avanti charging amendment fees on excesses.

[blimmo]

I recently attempted to excess one portion of a Coventry-Tamworth Off Peak Day Return routed Via Nuneaton to Any Permitted (16-25 railcard discount on both). The difference in price is £1.45 and hence the excess required for one direction only is 72.5p.
I am aware I can purchase this on the train but I attempted to do it at Coventry station ticket office. After spending some time using a tablet, the ticket clerk quoted a price of >£6. I attempted to argue that this was incorrect but she immediately got defensive and claimed that she was just telling me the price the system said. I also tried asking to excess the full ticket and was again told a price of >£6.

I have complained to Avanti and recently received the following reply:

Thank you for contacting Avanti West Coast in relation to the attempt to amend by excess your train ticket at Coventry station.

I first wanted to apologise for any frustration and inconvenience caused ,and I completely understand the feeling of being rushed when trying to sort something out with queue forming behind you.

In relation to excess tickets, as these are classed as a form of amendment, the standard amendment fee of £5.00 would apply to any ticket that is excessed along with any difference in price you ultimately need to pay.

You are correct however that with a return ticket, if you're simply attempting to excess for travelling one way, then only half the difference should be charged. So in this case, the calculation of half of 1.45 would indeed be 0.725 as you stated, however this would of course need to be rounded to the nearest penny and so, the overall amount should have been £5.73 for the excessing of your ticket for a single direction.

For both directions, the full price using the same method would be £6.45.

I am unsure why the staff member at the station was not fully aware of the correct procedures, and was attempting to charge you over £6.00 no matter the direction, but in any case and I would very much like to log this fully for you, so any action taken can be done so.

With that in mind, would you be able to give me a description of the staff member you spoke with as well as the their name (if you can remember it)

Also, for more information regarding our policy when it comes to changes, cancellations and refunds, please have a look at: https://www.avantiwestcoast.co.uk/about-us/policies-and-procedures/terms-and-conditions

I very much look forward to your reply and again I would like to apologise for any inconvenience or stress caused.

I'd just like to confirm on here that I'm entitled to an excess without an amendment fee before I respond. Is it possible that the system Avanti use at ticket offices incorrectly adds an amendment fee to excesses? I'm assuming that the ticket clerk used the ticket amendment process instead of the process for a change of route excess.

 

[AlterEgo]

No admin fee is chargeable for excessing a fare in the manner you describe.

 

[Towers]

Yikes!

 

[AlterEgo]

I love how stupid the railway is sometimes. The incompetence and knowledge management is absolutely flabbergasting. In this case they've had the chance to actually check whether that's right or not.

 

[blimmo]

Does anyone have any suggestions on exactly what I should quote at them in my response? Obviously NRCoT 9.5 but that doesn't explicitly use the term excess.

 

[Watershed]

That reply is marginally more knowledgeable than what I would usually expect to receive from a TOC's customer services, but it's still fundamentally wrong as an excess is not a change for which a £5 admin fee can be charged.

NRCoT 9.5 is very clear that you only need to pay the difference in fare for a change of route excess:

Where you:
9.5.2 are using a route for which your Ticket is not valid
you will be charged the difference between the fare that you have paid and the lowest price Ticket that is valid for the train you are using.

Any additional fees would have to be mentioned in that clause to be enforceable.

Now, there's no explicit contractual entitlement to a change of route excess for half the difference (in one direction only) - that's a recognised industry procedure but it's not written into the NRCoT. However that would only explain a very small amount of the overcharging.

 

[blimmo]

Now, there's no explicit contractual entitlement to a change of route excess for half the difference (in one direction only)

This is indeed why I also asked for the excess for both directions.

I have also tried Canley ticket office but the clerk there didn't even recognise the word excess and only offered me an entirely new ticket. She seemed at least willing to admit she might be wrong though...

 

[Watershed]

This is indeed why I also asked for the excess for both directions.

I have also tried Canley ticket office but the clerk there didn't even recognise the word excess and only offered me an entirely new ticket. She seemed at least willing to admit she might be wrong though...

Ticket office staff probably don't get many requests for excesses, but that doesn't justify getting it wrong. There are industry procedures they can access which detail what to charge - why not look it up?

 

[Adam Williams]

Perhaps we need a resource of "stations where you are more likely to succeed in getting an excess issued correctly" given that they seem to be a rare breed..

Much like Coventry, Leamington would not feature on the list either. I have had good experiences at Marylebone but it's not exactly near.

 

[styles]

Perhaps we need a resource of "stations where you are more likely to succeed in getting an excess issued correctly" given that they seem to be a rare breed..

Much like Coventry, Leamington would not feature on the list either. I have had good experiences at Marylebone but it's not exactly near.

I reckon if a public ranking was established, effectively rating ticket office staff competence, unions would have something to say about it.

That said, I'm all for it.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

I reckon if a public ranking was established, effectively rating ticket office staff competence, unions would have something to say about it.

Any ticket office can improve it's ranking by training their staff properly, if anything it could be a motivating factor for the unions to push for better training?

 

[redreni]

I reckon if a public ranking was established, effectively rating ticket office staff competence, unions would have something to say about it.

That said, I'm all for it.

It wouldn't be an overall rating of competence, just customer reviews focused on a specific service ticket offices should be offering. If it ends up with lots of incompetence being unearthed as people post their experiences, that's just an unintended consequence.

Given it's one of the few things you can't really do online, though, the unions would be very well advised to make sure their members know how to do it and to tell passengers about this service. Otherwise it's just a matter of time before ministers start bandying around statistics saying they don't do anything and therefore we need to get rid of them.

Would I be right in thinking online ticket retailing was developed with excesses placed firmly in the "too difficult" box, the expectation being that people would fall back on ticket offices and on-board staff for that sort of thing anyway? Obviously back in the day, nobody would have been thinking ahead to the time when online retailing would have killed off ticket offices.

Given the online workaround if you want an excess is to refund the ticket you've already bought and buy the one you want to excess to - which would cost you whatever admin fee the retailer wants to charge - could that be what led Avanti customer services to their erroneous conclusion that excesses attract an admin fee?

 

[edgar13]

Is it Avanti's ticketing training that's poor overall? Currently on a train to Glasgow, and a family sat near me held off peak day returns from Lancaster to Windermere, route Via Oxenholme [https://www.brfares.com/!faredetail?orig=LAN&dest=WDM&rte=512&tkt=CDR]. Train manager declared their tickets invalid just because they also held seat reservation coupons which said TPE only. Don't expect them to know about excesses if they can't even seem to get the basic tickets right.

 

[Watershed]

Is it Avanti's ticketing training that's poor overall? Currently on a train to Glasgow, and a family sat near me held off peak day returns from Lancaster to Windermere, route Via Oxenholme [https://www.brfares.com/!faredetail?orig=LAN&dest=WDM&rte=512&tkt=CDR]. Train manager declared their tickets invalid just because they also held seat reservation coupons which said TPE only. Don't expect them to know about excesses if they can't even seem to get the basic tickets right.

Bang out of order. Unfortunately there's not enough emphasis on training on ticket-related matters in the industry, so some staff fill the void with their own made-up concepts of how it works.

If they're still onboard, I hope you have told them where/how to complain?

 

[edgar13]

Bang out of order. Unfortunately there's not enough emphasis on training on ticket-related matters in the industry, so some staff fill the void with their own made-up concepts of how it works.

If they're still onboard, I hope you have told them where/how to complain?

They were "let off since they're getting off at the next stop anyway". Told them how to complain but they didn't want to. Seemed like foreign tourists too so we've definitely not left them with a good impression!

 

[Djgr]

Is it Avanti's ticketing training that's poor overall? Currently on a train to Glasgow, and a family sat near me held off peak day returns from Lancaster to Windermere, route Via Oxenholme [https://www.brfares.com/!faredetail?orig=LAN&dest=WDM&rte=512&tkt=CDR]. Train manager declared their tickets invalid just because they also held seat reservation coupons which said TPE only. Don't expect them to know about excesses if they can't even seem to get the basic tickets right.

Were these seat reservations for a different service? Why would a seat reservation say TPE only, when it is for a specific service?

 

[alistairlees]

I expect that the seat reservations were simply for a TPE train, rather than saying “TPE only”.

 

[Djgr]

I expect that the seat reservations were simply for a TPE train, rather than saying “TPE only”.

So they didn't need to show them!!! Sometimes best to keep things simple!

 

[voyagerdude220]

Is it Avanti's ticketing training that's poor overall? Currently on a train to Glasgow, and a family sat near me held off peak day returns from Lancaster to Windermere, route Via Oxenholme [https://www.brfares.com/!faredetail?orig=LAN&dest=WDM&rte=512&tkt=CDR]. Train manager declared their tickets invalid just because they also held seat reservation coupons which said TPE only. Don't expect them to know about excesses if they can't even seem to get the basic tickets right.

Also.. How would the family be able to travel from Lancaster to Windermere on so called TPE only tickets.. Seeing TPE don't run to/from Windermere? (And haven't done for several years)

 

[edgar13]

Yes the reservation coupons were for a different service on the Lancaster to Oxenholme leg only. It said something along the lines of "valid only with travel ticket" but there's also a line saying "Valid only on specified TPE service", which is true for the reservation itself. Probably where the train manager got confused over but still doesn't change the validity of the flexible ticket.

So they didn't need to show them!!! Sometimes best to keep things simple!

I do agree yes and that's what I'd do myself, but an average person would simply take whatever they got from the ticket machine/office and trust the railway staff to handle the rest.

 

[MrJeeves]

but there's also a line saying "Valid only on specified TPE service", which is true for the reservation itself.

A reservation coupon would never say this.

 

[Djgr]

A reservation coupon would never say this.

I think the staff member has put two and two together and made five.

 

[janb]

The other possibility is a SplitSave situation of Lancaster - Oxenholme TPE Only CDR and Oxenholme - Windermere CDR which works out 20p cheaper than Lancaster - Windermere at the adult rate. Obviously depends on how much faith the jury puts in @edgar13 testimony.

 

[blimmo]

Update on Canley ticket office: I went again today and managed to convince the staff member there to call her manager. I was told that "excesses used to be a thing but not any more." She also seemed to be unaware of the existence of the NRCoT when I asked if she had a copy I could reference. Eventually she suggested I take a screenshot of the NRCoT condition 9.5 and show the guard that in order to convince them I should be allowed to buy the excess on the train. She even showed me the interface she had for selling tickets and claimed there was no way to sell excesses on it. I guess this firmly puts Canley in the no chance tier.

 

[Mike395]

Update on Canley ticket office: I went again today and managed to convince the staff member there to call her manager. I was told that "excesses used to be a thing but not any more." She also seemed to be unaware of the existence of the NRCoT when I asked if she had a copy I could reference. Eventually she suggested I take a screenshot of the NRCoT condition 9.5 and show the guard that in order to convince them I should be allowed to buy the excess on the train. She even showed me the interface she had for selling tickets and claimed there was no way to sell excesses on it. I guess this firmly puts Canley in the no chance tier.

Good grief. That warrants a complaint going in to WMT (copied into the West Midlands PTE), it's a training issue at a high level if even the local manager is getting it wrong.

 

[blimmo]

I responded with this:

Unfortunately I don't agree that the standard amendment fee would apply here since this is not an amendment to the original ticket but rather a special excess fare. The entitlement to an excess is set out in the National Rail Conditions of Travel, specifically section 9.5:

9.5 Where you:
9.5.1 are using a time-restricted Ticket (such as an “off-peak” or “super-off-peak” Ticket) that is correctly dated but invalid for the service on which you are travelling; or
9.5.2 are using a route for which your Ticket is not valid; or
9.5.3 break your journey when you are not permitted to do so;
you will be charged the difference between the fare that you have paid and the lowest price Ticket that is valid for the train you are using.

If an amendment fee was applicable it would need to be mentioned here. The Off Peak Day Return routed Any Permitted is certainly valid for the journey I was proposing and hence I cannot see any justification for charging more than £1.45 for either of the excesses I requested.

I've just received the following response from Avanti:

Thank you for your response to my previous email in regards to this. I very much appreciate it.

In regards to the points you raise, while The National Rail Conditions of Travel do specify this, however the section you reference falls under that of travelling without a valid ticket it also doesn't mention not paying any administrative charge, such as where it does specifically around changing one season ticket to another in section 41.3.

In addition, where it says '... valid for the train you are using'. At the moment you were trying to excess your ticket, no train was being used.

I completely get where you're coming from, and you have every right to question the processes, however strictly speaking the system at the station would have given the staff member a price based on the details that were provided to them and they would not have been able to override the price it said.

In between responses I have looked into this on my end to just to double check as well, and I want to thank you again for your response and hope this email finds you well.??

I'm honestly not sure what to say at this point. Perhaps someone here knows the parts of the Knowledge Base I could suggest they read?

 

[AlterEgo]

Update on Canley ticket office: I went again today and managed to convince the staff member there to call her manager. I was told that "excesses used to be a thing but not any more." She also seemed to be unaware of the existence of the NRCoT when I asked if she had a copy I could reference. Eventually she suggested I take a screenshot of the NRCoT condition 9.5 and show the guard that in order to convince them I should be allowed to buy the excess on the train. She even showed me the interface she had for selling tickets and claimed there was no way to sell excesses on it. I guess this firmly puts Canley in the no chance tier.

Brilliant stuff. Love how literally none of what happened is correct. I do enjoy reading how ticket offices are so entrenched in incompetence and ignorance. Maybe I will use one again one day to see whether it'll make me laugh.

Thank you for your response to my previous email in regards to this. I very much appreciate it.

In regards to the points you raise, while The National Rail Conditions of Travel do specify this, however the section you reference falls under that of travelling without a valid ticket it also doesn't mention not paying any administrative charge, such as where it does specifically around changing one season ticket to another in section 41.3.

In addition, where it says '... valid for the train you are using'. At the moment you were trying to excess your ticket, no train was being used.

I completely get where you're coming from, and you have every right to question the processes, however strictly speaking the system at the station would have given the staff member a price based on the details that were provided to them and they would not have been able to override the price it said.

In between responses I have looked into this on my end to just to double check as well, and I want to thank you again for your response and hope this email finds you well.??

Even funnier and even stupider. Just making it all up, as well as being poorly written.

Ask to escalate this to a customer relations manager at the first instance.

 

[alistairlees]

I think that these replies should be gathered up and sent to dft / gbr for appreciation and action

 

[Watershed]

I responded with this:


I've just received the following response from Avanti:


I'm honestly not sure what to say at this point. Perhaps someone here knows the parts of the Knowledge Base I could suggest they read?

What an utterly incompetent response. Have they even bothered to check the rules, or are they just making stuff up? I suspect the latter.

The suggestion that they can charge an admin fee not mentioned in the NRCoT is hilarious. The fact that the NRCoT don't exclude the possibility of an admin fee being charged doesn't mean they're free to add on whatever fee they like! The clause determines your contractual liability for travelling 'off route' and so they cannot charge you more than they have explicitly set out at the outset, in the terms and conditions.

They also seem to be actively suggesting you should obtain the excess onboard the train; of course this is permitted but it's ironic since there are other members of staff (such as many RPIs) who would wrongly claim that's not permitted and who would seek to penalise you for it! Just another example where the industry is engaging in cakeism.

As for the point that the member of staff can't override the system, that would be factually incorrect for most TISs as they generally have the ability to sel a custom priced excess or fare - although admittedly I cannot say 100% for certain that Avanti's TIS works that way. But the fact that their system may be set up incorrectly (in reality, I suspect the wrong process/section of it was being used) is not an excuse for overcharging you!

Requesting a manager to review a complaint is pointless with Avanti in my experience, as they invariably seem to parrot whichever bizarre response the first-line customer service person has come up with. Nevertheless, I'd ask for a 'letter of deadlock' to confirm that they're not considering changing their position. That will allow you to proceed to the Rail Ombudsman if you want. Given that (from my understanding) you didn't actually pay the excess asked for, you aren't going to have clear grounds for bringing a Court claim so the Ombudsman - despite its notorious incompetence - is probably your best bet for escalating this complaint.

Here are the correct procedures:

Travelling by a different route​

Return tickets
Anytime / Anytime Day Off-Peak / Off-Peak Day Super Off-Peak / Super Off-Peak Day
Travel in ONE direction:

Charge HALF the difference between the fare paid and the appropriate Return fare for the journey being made.

If no through fare, charge the appropriate Single fare for the part of the journey not covered by the ticket held.

No mention is made of any admin fee, in constrast other sections dealing with e.g. changing Advance tickets:

Travelling on a Service Other Than Specified​

Advance - Charge £10 admin fee PLUS the difference between the fare paid and the appropriate Single fare for the journey being made (provided the time of the reservable leg has not yet passed).

I would directly quote the above in your final reply (asking for a deadlock letter), asking them why they believe they do not need to comply with established industry procedures and why an admin fee would be applicable despite this not being stated anywhere in the applicable section of the industry procedures.

I think that these replies should be gathered up and sent to dft / gbr for appreciation and action

Sadly I fear they'd think it's an example of how excesses are 'too complicated' and should be abolished rather than taking onboard the point that staff training, and in particular signposting to the correct procedures, needs to be improved by an order of magnitude.

 

[redreni]

Perhaps the OP could write back enclosing an invoice for an admin fee of his own, payable to him by Avanti, explaining he is allowed to do this as he never explicitly said he wouldn't?