Avanti London-Liverpool Frequency

[Sorcerer]

Having a look on Real Time Trains for Avanti West Coast services between London and Liverpool, it looks like until 26th August that the service has now been reduced to hourly for a short while, and mostly formed of Class 807s with a few 390s running one or two of the services throughout the day. Would anyone happen to know the reasoning behind this temporary reduction in services?

On another note, with additional services each way from September and a few more added on in the December timetable change, does this mean that the power supply upgrades to enable extra electric traction on the route is currently being implemented or is this a case of additional paths being freed up with a change in freight stock which I believe is the reason why it's not currently possible to run more trains between London and Liverpool?

 

[hexagon789]

Having a look on Real Time Trains for Avanti West Coast services between London and Liverpool, it looks like until 26th August that the service has now been reduced to hourly for a short while, and mostly formed of Class 807s with a few 390s running one or two of the services throughout the day. Would anyone happen to know the reasoning behind this temporary reduction in services?

Stockport bridge replacement.

Rail Engineering works: Greek Street Bridge Replacement | National Rail

Major bridge replacement work at Stockport from Saturday 2 to Friday 22 August. See details of routes affected by planned rail engineering works, including when they take effect, alternative timetables, advice for alternative travel, including info about engineering work and why it is necessary.

www.nationalrail.co.uk

Description​

Major engineering work is taking place at Stockport, and between Handforth / Bramhall and Stoke-on-Trent, closing all lines.

You can find more information below and on Network Rail's webpage for the Greek Street bridge replacement.

Requires the service being thinned out.

The remaining Liverpools are also serving Nuneaton, as the Manchester that usually serves them isn't running.

 

[frodshamfella]

I heard that Virgin Rail are objecting to Avantis increased services , due to the fact they want to launch their own Liverpool- London service.

 

[childwallblues]

I have seats booked for the 26th August on the 1412 from Milton Keynes Central to Lime Street in Coach H (Standard Premium) so I am assuming this will be an 11 coach Pendolino?

 

[hexagon789]

I have seats booked for the 26th August on the 1412 from Milton Keynes Central to Lime Street in Coach H (Standard Premium) so I am assuming this will be an 11 coach Pendolino?

Think that'll be an 807.

It certainly was one before the Stockport blockade.

 

[Tilting007]

I heard that Virgin Rail are objecting to Avantis increased services , due to the fact they want to launch their own Liverpool- London service.

They have had their access application declined.

Avanti increase Liverpool services on 15th September and then up to full allocation from the Dec 25 Timetable change.

 

[Unobrow]

I have seats booked for the 26th August on the 1412 from Milton Keynes Central to Lime Street in Coach H (Standard Premium) so I am assuming this will be an 11 coach Pendolino?

AWC Liverpool services don’t seem to be calling at Milton Keynes at the moment for some reason.

 

[hexagon789]

AWC Liverpool services don’t seem to be calling at Milton Keynes at the moment for some reason.

Again, because of the Stockport bridge closure, the Liverpools are calling at Nuneaton instead of Milton Keynes.

From the week commencing the 26th, it'll be back to normal.

 

[Bald Rick]

I heard that Virgin Rail are objecting to Avantis increased services , due to the fact they want to launch their own Liverpool- London service.

Virgin are not objecting, at least not in the formal sense, as they have no ability to do so.

They can, of course, make noise in the press.

 

[Djgr]

Virgin are not objecting, at least not in the formal sense, as they have no ability to do so.

They can, of course, make noise in the press.

Why are they still lurking in the wings of the rail industry?

 

[Sorcerer]

I heard that Virgin Rail are objecting to Avantis increased services , due to the fact they want to launch their own Liverpool- London service.

This application was already rejected by the ORR, and there's practically no chance of it happening before HS2. They were trying to obtain the paths Avanti weren't using but are now starting to utilise throughout the day.

Avanti increase Liverpool services on 15th September and then up to full allocation from the Dec 25 Timetable change.

Not quite full allocation, but most hours throughout the day at the very least. But that brings me on to my second question of the thread. Was this increase because of power supply upgrades being delivered or are the freight operations changing their traction so as not to use the overhead lines?

 

[Cach17]

Why are they still lurking in the wings of the rail industry?

I imagine they're still salty over losing the West Coast franchise. They should really take the ORR's decision on the chin and stick to their cross-channel proposals.

 

[Unobrow]

Again, because of the Stockport bridge closure, the Liverpools are calling at Nuneaton instead of Milton Keynes.

From the week commencing the 26th, it'll be back to normal.

Ok thanks. I thought your earlier comment meant Nuneaton was an additional stop rather than instead of.

 

[Djgr]

I imagine they're still salty over losing the West Coast franchise. They should really take the ORR's decision on the chin and stick to their cross-channel proposals.

Or even better focus on flogging cola

 

[hexagon789]

Ok thanks. I thought your earlier comment meant Nuneaton was an additional stop rather than instead of.

Reading back, yes a bit ambiguous on my part there possibly, apologies for that.

 

[Bald Rick]

Why are they still lurking in the wings of the rail industry?

Presumably because they think there is money to be made.

 

[Djgr]

Presumably because they think there is money to be made.

Made presumably means appropriated from the taxpayer

 

[Tetragon213]

Presumably because they think there is money to be made.

I've noticed that VT has, in the Up direction only, one or two services per day that go via BHM from Liverpool and Manchester to London. I think there is definitely a market for money to be made in express Birmingham-Liverpool and non-XC Birmingham-Manchester services. I wonder if Virgin has been thinking of that?

As someone who lives in Birmingham, I would greatly appreciate a non-XC option for travelling to Manchester, and an express service to Liverpool.

 

[Class 170101]

I've noticed that VT has, in the Up direction only, one or two services per day that go via BHM from Liverpool and Manchester to London. I think there is definitely a market for money to be made in express Birmingham-Liverpool and non-XC Birmingham-Manchester services. I wonder if Virgin has been thinking of that?

Avanti probably hasn't got enough stock to do that though an hourly extension of existing services from Birmingham to Manchester and Liverpool might be useful. Some Class 350s (soon be) and Class 221s going spare.

As someone who lives in Birmingham, I would greatly appreciate a non-XC option for travelling to Manchester, and an express service to Liverpool.

I think a lot of people might appreciate this given how crowded some XC services can be.

 

[childwallblues]

Think that'll be an 807.

It certainly was one before the Stockport blockade.

No it is a booked 390 service according to Avanti staff at Liverpool.

 

[hexagon789]

No it is a booked 390 service according to Avanti staff at Liverpool.

Station staff or train crew?

The the XX:43 slots (which serve Milton Keynes) are meant to be 807s and as I said, before the Stockport block it was running as an 807.

Indeed, seems to have been an 807 everyday back to the May timetable change on the days it did run that I can see.

Under the altered timetable, it has also run mostly as an 807, being a Pendolino only on the 5th and the 11th, so far.

 

[Djgr]

I've noticed that VT has, in the Up direction only, one or two services per day that go via BHM from Liverpool and Manchester to London. I think there is definitely a market for money to be made in express Birmingham-Liverpool and non-XC Birmingham-Manchester services. I wonder if Virgin has been thinking of that?

As someone who lives in Birmingham, I would greatly appreciate a non-XC option for travelling to Manchester, and an express service to Liverpool.

Not VT. Its franchises have expired.

In fact do Virgin Trains actually currently run passenger train services anywhere in the world?

Which begs the question, why are they lurking around the UK rail industry like a jilted lover stalker? And can anyone do this?

 

[pokemonsuper9]

Not VT. Its franchises have expired.

VT = Avanti in a lot of rail systems, see real time trains and the displays on the side of the Pendolinos

 

[Merle Haggard]

In the current Avanti timetable there is a single (Euston -) Birmingham - Liverpool service although it seems to disappear with the December 2025 one.

 

[Sorcerer]

In fact do Virgin Trains actually currently run passenger train services anywhere in the world?

Not really, and any attempts such as Virgin Trains USA with Brightline have ended before they could even get on track (no pun intended). I think this is primarily because Virgin is more of a brand than a company, and if they were able to find partners willing to let them slap their name on the trains in exchange for a share of investments they would probably do so if they could. Even the latest WCML bid was just a 10% stake for branding purposes only.

Which begs the question, why are they lurking around the UK rail industry like a jilted lover stalker? And can anyone do this?

Because passenger rail can be a profitable business (more specifically InterCity and International) and also because they never did take losing the West Coast franchise too lightly. Especially not when the first time was because of the civil servants bungling the franchise process and the second time was their partner Stagecoach refusing to meet franchise commitments. In that respect you could sort of argue they were forced out.

 

[Bald Rick]

I've noticed that VT has, in the Up direction only, one or two services per day that go via BHM from Liverpool and Manchester to London. I think there is definitely a market for money to be made in express Birmingham-Liverpool and non-XC Birmingham-Manchester services. I wonder if Virgin has been thinking of that?

Those trains are essentially stock positioning moves to the West Midlands which carry passengers.

 

[BPN2022]

Any reason why Blackpool had extra London trains last week?

 

[godfreycomplex]

Any reason why Blackpool had extra London trains last week?

Summer innit

 

[Sorcerer]

I've noticed that VT has, in the Up direction only, one or two services per day that go via BHM from Liverpool and Manchester to London. I think there is definitely a market for money to be made in express Birmingham-Liverpool and non-XC Birmingham-Manchester services. I wonder if Virgin has been thinking of that?

Little late noticing this one, but taking a quick look at Real Time Trains there are two Manchester-London via Birmingham (0603 and 0624) and one London-Liverpool via Birmingham (0616). Interesting calling pattern because I'm not quite sure when it started to become a thing in the early morning.

 

[JonathanH]

Little late noticing this one, but taking a quick look at Real Time Trains there are two Manchester-London via Birmingham (0603 and 0624) and one London-Liverpool via Birmingham (0616). Interesting calling pattern because I'm not quite sure when it started to become a thing in the early morning.

The 0624 from Manchester to Euston via Birmingham (previously 0627) has run for over 15 years. It effectively runs instead of a CrossCountry train to Bournemouth, that means the displaced Voyager can start from Nottingham, which in turn allows an out of pattern Turbostar service.

The other services are more recent innovations. The 0603 also runs in a CrossCountry path with the 0742 from Birmingham to Bristol starting at New Street with a unit coming from Central Rivers. The 0616 from Euston to Liverpool via the West Midlands is balanced at New Street by the 0624 from Manchester above, and presumably reflects that demand from London to Liverpool doesn't need a high frequency service that early on.