How Viable are Preserved Railways?

[driverd]

Can you give some examples of railways with such poor catering?

Its not my intention to name and shame on a public forum, especially when many members on here have personal involvement with preserved railways. I think its an assessment anyone can make when you compare the quality of food at a PR to that of a nearby local garden centre or successful café. All too often I find the food offering at a railway very much akin to a local greasy spoon, but with very inflated prices. For a captive audience who need a quick snack that might work, but theres a huge market out there for high quality food in interesting locations. With the right approach and a good menu, theres no reason why a preserved railway café couldn't compete with a garden centre, many of which are treated as a cafe destination in themselves. Many railways are blessed with a rent free, central(ish) location in towns. The buildings themselves are often beautiful and the railway activity interesting. Its a crying shame this isnt put to better use.

Catering is a hard place to make money. Ask anyone in the hospitality trade. Staff and power costs a big issue.

Frankly, running a railway is a hard place to make money. Just because something is hard doesn't mean it can't be done. A friend runs a small chain of cafés, draws an income from them and employs around 50 people, whilst having to pay rent for the premises. Given that many PRs benefit from owning their buildings, they already have a strong starting point in this regard and really shouldn't shy away from capitalising on their strengths.

 

[Krokodil]

It's been a while since I've seen a "greasy spoon" experience at a heritage railway. Tea rooms seem to be the order of the day at the ones I've visited.

 

[SuspectUsual]

It's been a while since I've seen a "greasy spoon" experience at a heritage railway. Tea rooms seem to be the order of the day at the ones I've visited.

Both the heritage railways I’m most familiar with - Talyllyn and K&WVR - have cafes offering big, good value full breakfasts. Not quite a “greasy spoon experience” as they’re nicer environments than the stereotype but you wouldn’t need to eat again until evening

 

[driverd]

It's been a while since I've seen a "greasy spoon" experience at a heritage railway. Tea rooms seem to be the order of the day at the ones I've visited.

Certainly at one of the larger railways in the midlands, we had a breakfast for £10(ish) that consisted of a single very greasy/cheap sausage, a rasher of bacon that was more fat than meat and something that once upon a time was maybe an egg, still unsure.

Compare this to what I'd get at my local village cafe or garden centre and its worlds apart, for a similar price. Not to mention the lack of any menu items that were even vaguely healthy or different (eg: eggs hollandaise etc) and no menu items that catered for GF etc.

At a second café on this railway we had an experience that resembled the "two soups" sketch. At this point we resolved not to bother with on-site catering.

Both the heritage railways I’m most familiar with - Talyllyn and K&WVR - have cafes offering big, good value full breakfasts. Not quite a “greasy spoon experience” as they’re nicer environments than the stereotype but you wouldn’t need to eat again until evening

I'd say the KWVR café is a better example but still has a good amount of scope to broaden its appeal.

 

[Peter Wilde]

Do you actually have any experience of catering at charity-owned or run visitor attractions?

The big cost is staffing. This is one of the areas where it's difficult to get volunteers, so paid staff are usually necessary. And in order to deliver a consistent offer, you need the staff even if it's pissing down and there are hardly any visitors that day.

Yes, getting catering right and making money is hard. Many attractions that offer catering do it mainly as a loss-leading way to attract more punters, especially families, to visit.

Many heritage railways have the added problem that they are not open all, day, every day even in peak season. Unlike places like National Trust houses where a big catering organisation can be staffed to operate every day for the whole summer season (or more). How can one run a quality catering outfit using paid staff, if it’s only open at certain days and times?

Really small railways might avoid this problem by using volunteers to staff their small cafes, but that doesn’t work at any larger scale, surely?

 

[Titfield]

Really small railways might avoid this problem by using volunteers to staff their small cafes, but that doesn’t work at any larger scale, surely?

Based on experience not easy to get volunteers to staff catering roles.

 

[xotGD]

I'd say the KWVR café is a better example but still leaves a lot to be desired if it wishes to broaden its appeal beyond the cliché railway crowd.

In my experience, many if not most of the customers in The Old Parcels Office are not visiting the railway. It has the advantage of being accessible from the street, not just from the platform.

I've had an excellent cooked breakfast there, and they have real ale on tap.

 

[steamybrian]

Based on experience not easy to get volunteers to staff catering roles.

I fully agree that many heritage railways are struggling to get any staff. You cannot get anyone to just man catering outlets as they have to be trained or supervised by someone passed out in "Food Handling" exams.
Those railways who operate one or two days a week have to carefully judge catering stock as items such as sandwiches must be sold the same day. otherwise the profit made on those sold may not cover those sandwiches unsold which will have to be disposed of.

 

[renegademaster]

In terms of catering, was looking for a sandwich/lunch at the Spa Valley only to be told they don't have any food, just something on one of the trains, and ended up having to visit the supermarket next door.

The sandwiches at high rocks are cheap for where you are and are quite nice.
If you want a more substantial lunch go to Smith and Wesson in the old Tonbridge Wells West Station

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It's been a while since I've seen a "greasy spoon" experience at a heritage railway. Tea rooms seem to be the order of the day at the ones I've visited.

One of the things i like about the Great Central is the on train greasy spoon!

 

[Class73Electro]

The sandwiches at high rocks are cheap for where you and are quite nice.
If you want a more substantial lunch go to Smith and Wesson in the old Tonbridge Wells West Station

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 15 Aug 2025 ==


One of the things i like about the Great Central is the on train greasy spoon!

Do the trains stop at High Rocks anymore? Every time I've visited we've never stopped there

 

[renegademaster]

Do the trains stop at High Rocks anymore? Every time I've visited we've never stopped there

They stop most weeks but tend to skip it when galas are on or if their is an event at the house

 

[Class73Electro]

They stop most weeks but tend to skip it when galas are on or if their is an event at the house

AHH ok, thanks! did wonder.

 

[12C]

With the right approach and a good menu, theres no reason why a preserved railway café couldn't compete with a garden centre, many of which are treated as a cafe destination in themselves.

This is something one of my local lines, the Lakeside and Haverthwaite seems to do well. In off season they offer a more comprehensive menu in the cafe (particularly for afternoon teas), and it’s a popular destination for locals even on days when trains aren’t running.

 

[Uncle Buck]

Do you actually have any experience of catering at charity-owned or run visitor attractions?

The big cost is staffing. This is one of the areas where it's difficult to get volunteers, so paid staff are usually necessary. And in order to deliver a consistent offer, you need the staff even if it's pissing down and there are hardly any visitors that day.

Well, for the first twenty years of my working life I worked in the hospitality industry, including managing a large multi-level venue and a large hotel. Every hospitality business has staffing as a huge expense. But most hospitality businesses also have to pay rent (which railways don’t- or rather, they usually do, but they are already paying rent/mortgage; so running a hospitality business on the premises is not increasing the rent paid) and they are trying to attract passers-by, whereas heritage railways have a captive market. Many business owners would kill for these advantages.

Do you think that Disneyland, Legoland, museums, stately homes, National Trust properties etc approach their catering offer with the mentality of “this does not need to make a profit”? The catering facilities at many of these venues is absolutely first-rate and must be a huge contributor to their survival.

I think this was lost in the noise of the thread but is an excellent point. I "volunteer" with my local non-league football side doing some of their social media* and the amount of interest it generates from the younger crowd is phenomenal. And by social media I don't mean twitter (which is my leisurely, grey-haired lane) but TikTok and Insta, and to an extent Snapchat. A younger bod than I looks after those so I can sit in my shed and do the graphics

I disagree that there's no interest in the hobby from the younger generations - there's quite a chunk of social media regarding railway enthusiasts, and there's been a recent explosion in memes where the premise is you're talking about something very cool, and the big reveal is that's trains and modelling (well, we all think that!) - our man Francis has done some good too, whatever you think of him. I wouldn't write off interest just yet. But to return to @Uncle Buck how many lines have got a TikTok? How many are trying to build interest? It's not just "here is a steam train", it's making it interesting, making it fun, and giving an insight into a world perhaps our "youth" might not see.

I feel this is similar to the point about catering, in that whereas any of the alternative days out venues I listed above will be all over social media and approaching it with a modern attitude, many railways are living in an analogue age. A geriatric website last redesigned while Tony Blair was prime minister isn’t good enough. A social media co-ordinator is a must-have in most businesses- if you don’t understand this, you shouldn’t be running anything in 2025; your local plumber or gardener will have a TikTok to show off his work to prospective customers. There are plenty of Gen Zers interested in steam trains as the success of Francis Bourgeois and others attests!

As a counter-example, I am a member of the National Trust for Scotland. They post something on Instagram every day, often presented by the president, TV presenter Jackie Bird (very famous in Scotland). Their catering is outstanding- even a small venue like Holmwood House in Glasgow has a cafe which is just as good as any decent, modern cafe in Glasgow (ie substantially better than a Costa or Pret). So an NTS property is always good for a day out. Can this really be said of most heritage railways?

There is no excuse for this backwardness and conservatism, which can only jeopardise heritage railways.

 

[driverd]

There is no excuse for this backwardness and conservatism, which can only jeopardise heritage railways.

Along with the rest of your post, very well said.

This, in my experience, is the problem that plagues most preserved railways, and it's this fear of moving with the times (yes, the railway pretends its stuck in 1960 but the rest of the business very much is not) that is the biggest risk they face.

 

[Uncle Buck]

Along with the rest of your post, very well said.

This, in my experience, is the problem that plagues most preserved railways, and it's this fear of moving with the times (yes, the railway pretends its stuck in 1960 but the rest of the business very much is not) that is the biggest risk they face.

Thank you.

As you say, in order that the railway can recreate the past, the organisation that runs it must adapt to the present; as the saying goes, “if we want things to stay the same, things are going to have to change”.

 

[eldomtom2]

Do you think that Disneyland, Legoland, museums, stately homes, National Trust properties etc approach their catering offer with the mentality of “this does not need to make a profit”? The catering facilities at many of these venues is absolutely first-rate and must be a huge contributor to their survival.

But the better the catering, the more it costs to provide, so any heritage railway will need to think carefully about whether improved catering will bring in more money than it costs to provide.

your local plumber or gardener will have a TikTok to show off his work to prospective customers.

I don't think most plumbers are advertising through TikTok! It's not a platform designed to host "showreels", and while someone scrolling through Tiktok might see a video of a tourist attraction and think "I should visit there", I doubt they'll think "I should get him to do the plumbing" if they see a video of a plumber!
In any event most railways from what I can see have a decent social media presence - even a lot of the smaller lines regularly post to Instagram etc.

 

[railfan99]

North Norfolk Railway appears to be financially viable.

 

[Titfield]

I fully agree that many heritage railways are struggling to get any staff. You cannot get anyone to just man catering outlets as they have to be trained or supervised by someone passed out in "Food Handling" exams.
Those railways who operate one or two days a week have to carefully judge catering stock as items such as sandwiches must be sold the same day. otherwise the profit made on those sold may not cover those sandwiches unsold which will have to be disposed of.

The food handling exam / certificate can be done online. Last time I did it, it cost about £18 and was straightforward.
The point about perishables is well made which is why you need to have someone with a bit of catering nauce managing the operation.

 

[Falcon1200]

Certainly at one of the larger railways in the midlands, we had a breakfast for £10(ish) that consisted of a single very greasy/cheap sausage, a rasher of bacon that was more fat than meat and something that once upon a time was maybe an egg, still unsure.

Whereas I fairly recently had a cooked breakfast, also at one of the larger railways in the Midlands, and it was absolutely wonderful! I do not recognise, at all, the general description of catering at preserved railways, in my experience at least.

 

[simonw]

North Norfolk Railway appears to be financially viable.

On what basis do you make that assertion?

 

[SuspectUsual]

The point about perishables is well made which is why you need to have someone with a bit of catering nauce managing the operation.

It is, but a sensibly thought out menu that provides a decent choice without an insane number of ingredients makes it easier to manage shorter life stock.

For example sandwiches can be made on site not bought in, and nothing in a sandwich needs to be something that isn’t in at least one other thing on the menu.

 

[Harpo]

Perversely, the Vale of Rheidol has given notice to the owners of the Two Hoots cafe at Devils Bridge and “the Board’s vision for the site does not include a substantive catering provision as part of the redevelopment.“

Unfortunate as there’s nothing else there!

Redevelopment of Devils Bridge Station

Vale of Rheidol Railway Unveils Plans for Redevelopment of Devils Bridge Station The Vale of Rheidol Railway announces plans for a major redevelopment of its Devils Bridge Station site. Building on the success of recent improvements at the Aberystwyth station and continuing with the work…

vor.wales

 

[duffield]

Perversely, the Vale of Rheidol has given notice to the owners of the Two Hoots cafe at Devils Bridge and “the Board’s vision for the site does not include a substantive catering provision as part of the redevelopment.“

Unfortunate as there’s nothing else there!

Redevelopment of Devils Bridge Station

Vale of Rheidol Railway Unveils Plans for Redevelopment of Devils Bridge Station The Vale of Rheidol Railway announces plans for a major redevelopment of its Devils Bridge Station site. Building on the success of recent improvements at the Aberystwyth station and continuing with the work…

vor.wales

On the face of it this seems utterly bizarre, you've got a near captive audience for an hour, and quite a few of them will be less mobile and just want to sit around and have tea/cake/a sandwich while waiting for the return journey. I suppose you could generously interpret "does not include a substantive catering provision" as not ruling out some basic catering of some sort, but I'd like to know the reasoning behind this decision.

 

[Krokodil]

Perversely, the Vale of Rheidol has given notice to the owners of the Two Hoots cafe at Devils Bridge and “the Board’s vision for the site does not include a substantive catering provision as part of the redevelopment.“

Unfortunate as there’s nothing else there!

Redevelopment of Devils Bridge Station

Vale of Rheidol Railway Unveils Plans for Redevelopment of Devils Bridge Station The Vale of Rheidol Railway announces plans for a major redevelopment of its Devils Bridge Station site. Building on the success of recent improvements at the Aberystwyth station and continuing with the work…

vor.wales

Which is ridiculous because the first thing anyone does on arrival is queue up for a panad.

 

[John Luxton]

On the face of it this seems utterly bizarre, you've got a near captive audience for an hour, and quite a few of them will be less mobile and just want to sit around and have tea/cake/a sandwich while waiting for the return journey. I suppose you could generously interpret "does not include a substantive catering provision" as not ruling out some basic catering of some sort, but I'd like to know the reasoning behind this decision.

Apparently they want to retore the station to its original layout and feel. I have not got round to visit yet this year but I did note on previous occasions the Two Hoots was very popular - so popular there was a queue which made walking down to the Hafod for a pint preferable.

I suspect once the work at is done some sort of inhouse refreshment facilities will be established. It has probably been a way of taking things in house.

I gather from social media that Two Hoots has resestablished itself in a pub car park some miles away. That seems a strange arrangement as pub and cafe would surely compete for food?

 

[bramling]

Which is ridiculous because the first thing anyone does on arrival is queue up for a panad.

I wonder if this could partly be the issue. Massive surge when train arrives, but empty at other times. That said, there isn’t a massive amount else to do there - I’ve always found that the typical length of turnround isn’t sufficient to visit the falls, for example, at least not without having to rush.

 

[simonw]

There are a number of issues with comparing HR with high street cafes.

A HR should have records of how many people visit and how many people use the catering, but visitors aren't homogenous and some will want a quality meal and others will want a bacon bap. A high street cafes can decide which bit of the market to address, a HR also has to, but that means some people will be disappointed.

A cafe will have a steady stream of people passing and whilst there will be peaks and troughs, they won't be as peaky as a railway where an arriving train will drop several hundred people potentially outside the cafe.

A cafe will often be open 6 or 7 days a week, underperformance 1 day means most good can be held over to the next. On a railway, operations may only be 3 or 4 days a week leading to higher wastage.

 

[43066]

obviously that number will go down as the price increases.

It depends - depending on price elasticity of demand it might be more lucrative to charge more for tickets, even if fewer are sold.

 

[harz99]

Lots of reasons why numbers of visitors and revenue could be down.

From my point of view it is simply down to old age, 10 years ago we would visit probably 5 or 6 preserved railways a year, all of which involved booking hotels/long distance train travel and such like...put simply it becomes too much hassle, effort, and cost...and often our experience had been spoiled by boorish "enthusiasts" and poor catering availability at premium prices.

The issue of old age must also have an effect on volunteer availability, as age takes it's toll on the ability to undertake the more physical tasks, and of course we all pass away at some point...

I'm not going to touch costs/overheads as it's all been said, except one thing...maybe stop running non passenger goods services and short "branch line" trains at gala's and events to reduce costs.