360 running speed

[voyager1]

Different circumstances mean different results.

If you had identical circumstances over two days but with different signallers, could one decide to give 9R44 priority and on another day the other signaller gives 1Y45 priority in this example? I know the chances of identical circumstances are extremely remote.

Also, I definitely notice that the EMR Connect likes to dwell longer at Luton Airport Parkway even if its delayed. Today, 1Y43 (1616 EMR Connect from STP) sat at Luton Airport Parkway for 3 minutes according to its arrival and departure time even though it was running 28 minutes late and this made 1Y45 a few minutes late into Luton. I notice 1Y43 made slow progress on departure from STP and assume it was following the Nottingham bound train which also probably was trailing something else. Must have been a very tight squeeze with 9R44 also having to fit somewhere in there.

I did think I imagined the long dwell time at Luton Airport Parkway - maybe it was my heart rate increasing at the prospect of a run for the bus at Luton. Today, seeing a delayed train sit at Luton Airport Parkway kind of confirmed that some trains "like" to sit there .... is it the flawed narrow design of platform 4 meaning everyone walks slowly with luggage on the wrong side of the yellow line and the train can't leave until everyone is clear - possibly when everyone has left the platform? (I hate that station at times).

In the mornings at Luton Station, if the bus is late - I have almost perfected the art of knowing whether its worth walking fast/sprinting for a train. If its on the platform and I'm outside, I know there's no point. If its approaching the platform, it depends where I am at the time. I remember one morning seeing a late running 0625 EMR Connect approaching Luton station - I didn't run for it as I had a Thameslink in mind (0643). I watched the EMR as I walked towards the station entrance and was shocked how quickly it started pulling away after stopping (I'd only just entered the station).

 

[Bald Rick]

If you had identical circumstances over two days but with different signallers, could one decide to give 9R44 priority and on another day the other signaller gives 1Y45 priority in this example?

Yes.

 

[Supercoss]

In a surprise announcement the planned withdrawal of EMU 100 restriction south of Bedford has also been ‘ paused’.
EMU restriction remains in place Cricklewood to Bedford fast Lines.

 

[godfreycomplex]

Very small point of information - the Network Rail controllers (on the train running side) are at West Hampstead itself, rather than Derby. They don't typically get involved in what goes on and off the fast lines where however, that's usually the signallers' decision.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Milton Keynes has more stops in the Long distance services - to a regular pattern - than it ever has had, with 4 an hour.

It has three, not four. One Manchester via Stoke, the Liverpool, and the semi fast Birmingham.

 

[Brubulus]

In a surprise announcement the planned withdrawal of EMU 100 restriction south of Bedford has also been ‘ paused’.
EMU restriction remains in place Cricklewood to Bedford fast Lines.

Is there any reason for that, given that the infrastructure work was completed?

 

[Bald Rick]

It has three, not four. One Manchester via Stoke, the Liverpool, and the semi fast Birmingham.

And the LNR Crewe service =4

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

And the LNR Crewe service =4

Oh that’s a stretch come on, but I’ll let you have it as it’s fast to London.

 

[voyager1]

In a surprise announcement the planned withdrawal of EMU 100 restriction south of Bedford has also been ‘ paused’.
EMU restriction remains in place Cricklewood to Bedford fast Lines.

That's a shame. Have they said why this is and when the restriction will be removed?

 

[Supercoss]

The TOC concerned not ready due to an issue with class 360 compatibility , plans afoot to operate 360s in twelve car formation at December 2026 ( not a typo - not 2025) with cctv being visible to train manager in the set that has no staff member riding.

 

[Bald Rick]

Oh that’s a stretch come on, but I’ll let you have it as it’s fast to London.

Well I’d say a service travelling 158 miles at an average of 76mph, runnign non stop MK- London has more of a claim of being a long distance service than one travelling 112 miles at an average of 73mph with one intermediate stop MK- London!

 

[Spartacus]

The TOC concerned not ready due to an issue with class 360 compatibility , plans afoot to operate 360s in twelve car formation at December 2026 ( not a typo - not 2025) with cctv being visible to train manager in the set that has no staff member riding.

With the 360 reliability still not being great I'm not sure if them running as 12 cars is such a great thing!

 

[Railperf]

With the 360 reliability still not being great I'm not sure if them running as 12 cars is such a great thing!

Has the St Pancras to Bedford speed upgrade taken place yet?

 

[Edvid]

The TOC concerned not ready due to an issue with class 360 compatibility , plans afoot to operate 360s in twelve car formation at December 2026 ( not a typo - not 2025) with cctv being visible to train manager in the set that has no staff member riding.

Wait, so is removal of the EMU 100 differential dependent on 12-car formations being authorised first, or is the 360 compatibility issue something else?

If the former, that makes no sense to me since 110mph is already achieved between Bedford and Wellingborough.

If the latter, are you at liberty to state what the specific issue is?

 

[Supercoss]

No date offered for removal of EMU 100 restriction south of Bedford , all work complete on catenary upgrade and principal contractor moved out. The class 360 fleet continue to have issues passing through the overhead line neutral sections at Grahame Park (Hendon) , Borehamwood, East Hyde and Long Meadow farm (Sundon) depending on which section if being fed from where it seems supply voltage differences either side of ohns is a t times the issue . A number of trains have also been recorded not shutting off and coasting through neutral sections , instead relying on APC magnets to shut off power which is not correct procedure -v- shutting off before ohns then coasting over apc equipment , regaining line light then applying power
Not an issue for other operators who run electric trains on the route.
If you ride in Pan coach in seats under pan it is very clear to hear and feel the surge of not shutting off, particularly at Grahame Park.

 

[Snow1964]

No date offered for removal of EMU 100 restriction south of Bedford , all work complete on catenary upgrade and principal contractor moved out. The class 360 fleet continue to have issues passing through the overhead line neutral sections at Grahame Park (Hendon) , Borehamwood, East Hyde and Long Meadow farm (Sundon) depending on which section if being fed from where it seems supply voltage differences either side of ohns is a t times the issue . A number of trains have also been recorded not shutting off and coasting through neutral sections , instead relying on APC magnets to shut off power which is not correct procedure -v- shutting off before ohns then coasting over apc equipment , regaining line light then applying power
Not an issue for other operators who run electric trains on the route.
If you ride in Pan coach in seats under pan it is very clear to hear and feel the surge of not shutting off, particularly at Grahame Park.

I might be naive, but if a train goes through a neutral section on full power, instead of coasting, what difference does it make if it is doing 105 or 110mph instead of 100mph

Surely it is better to coast through a neutral section at 110mph rather rather run through on power at 70, 80, 90mph etc

I am struggling to understand the logic of EMU100 if problem is one of not coasting through neutral section, sounds to me that additional illuminated coasting signs would be more useful than EMU100 sign.

 

[Railperf]

This sounds like a driver training issue. Fortunately, the TOC's involved can track down the individuals that are not driving correctly and retrain them. Especially if the consequence of this driving style is damage to the overhead equipment or the train.
The timetable doesn't require the slightly faster speeds at the moment so no harm done to delay the change until the rolling stock it was designed for is ready. And we still have a small matter of Thameslink stock not being able to exceed 100 mph anyway.

 

[AM9]

This sounds like a driver training issue. Fortunately, the TOC's involved can track down the individuals that are not driving correctly and retrain them. Especially if the consequence of this driving style is damage to the overhead equipment or the train.
The timetable doesn't require the slightly faster speeds at the moment so no harm done to delay the change until the rolling stock it was designed for is ready. And we still have a small matter of Thameslink stock not being able to exceed 100 mph anyway.

The class 700s have acceleration that allows them to use their paths between MML fasts, (including brief stops at WHP and SAC) such that pushing their permitted top speed to 110mph would make little difference. Over the ten or so miles that faster than 100 could practically be achieved, it makes 15 seconds saving, - hardly transformation to EM services and hardly likely to increase patronage.
As has been pointed out here by those far more informed than me, the secret of faster services is to not go slow rather than just go faster. The top speed of the class 700s a 'small matter', - operationally, it's a non-issue.

 

[Railperf]

The class 700s have acceleration that allows them to use their paths between MML fasts, (including brief stops at WHP and SAC) such that pushing their permitted top speed to 110mph would make little difference. Over the ten or so miles that faster than 100 could practically be achieved, it makes 15 seconds saving, - hardly transformation to EM services and hardly likely to increase patronage.
As has been pointed out here by those far more informed than me, the secret of faster services is to not go slow rather than just go faster. The top speed of the class 700s a 'small matter', - operationally, it's a non-issue.

Operationally it would an issue when a 100mph TL service is running late in front of an on-time 110mph EMR service. The EMR service would end up seeing cautionary signals and end up having to brake , causing it delay. The same happens when GWR 125mph get caught behind 110mph HEX.

 

[TRAX]

Operationally it would an issue when a 100mph TL service is running late in front of an on-time 110mph EMR service. The EMR service would end up seeing cautionary signals and end up having to brake , causing it delay. The same happens when GWR 125mph get caught behind 110mph HEX.

How long do the HEX 387s hold 110 for ?

 

[AM9]

Operationally it would an issue when a 100mph TL service is running late in front of an on-time 110mph EMR service. The EMR service would end up seeing cautionary signals and end up having to brake , causing it delay. The same happens when GWR 125mph get caught behind 110mph HEX.

A delayed train will normally mean that the following train is eventually slowed down. But if the 700s were modified to normally peak at 110 mph, they would be less than 20 seconds earlier when they brake for St Albans or the south Harpenden Juction. It's bonkers to suggest that 60 8-car and 55 12-car EMUs undergo a very expensive and disrupting modification programme to increase the notional headway of four paths an hour by 15-20 seconds. So adding the two sprints together, less that 30 seconds and that occurs only when the fast line services of either TL or EM* have made the interleaving of the trains slip in the working timetable. I don't know how much it cost to modify the LM 350 Desiros, but at least they had a much better case because they were fast line running for over 100 miles.
No, there just isn't the funds for such a trivial 'improvement' in operation.

* As @Bald Rick has commented several times here when just because a EM train is delayed south of Harpenden, is isn't always due to Thameslink irregularities, remember, often TL fast services are held at Harpenden, Radlett or even Carlton Road crossovers because of late southbound EM services. Unless space is made for them running even later to cross at the next junction (note, all of them single lead), the whole of the TL service can be so disrupted that the timetable breaks down.

 

[Kneedown]

This sounds like a driver training issue. Fortunately, the TOC's involved can track down the individuals that are not driving correctly and retrain them.

I can assure you that all Drivers on a 360 course will be made aware of requirement to shut off power prior to entering a neutral. It's something I, personally, hammer home the importance of when delivering a course, as APC magnets, or on train receivers are not infallible.
Training issue? No.
Knowledge retention issue? Maybe.

 

[800301]

Operationally it would an issue when a 100mph TL service is running late in front of an on-time 110mph EMR service. The EMR service would end up seeing cautionary signals and end up having to brake , causing it delay. The same happens when GWR 125mph get caught behind 110mph HEX.

Generally Hex Trains aren’t a problem in the current timetable, because it’s normally a Didcot stopper (387) that is timetabled behind the Hex from Airport Jn now but even so if an 800 was following a 387 down the main as they sometimes do, sitting at 110 doesn’t make a massive difference, I think the timing difference is 2 mins which can quite easily be made up on most journeys, the congestion approaching Paddington is more likely to delay the service than simply an 800 following a 387.

A 387 can follow 2 mins behind a Hex and not see any restrictives

 

[voyager1]

A side question - will the 360 refit include upgrading the air conditioning system? At the moment its hit and miss. On a hot day, I have made the decision to go home on a Thameslink Class 700 knowing it has climate control and works better than what is on the 360.

Also, will the WiFi be upgraded on the 360s as that is also hit and miss. Being much older, I guess the 360s weren't originally designed with mobile connectivity in mind and one has to rely on an often broken WiFi system for data. In comparison, the 700s were designed and built during an era of mobile 4G/5G connectivity so seem to be better optimised for mobile data signal to get through.

 

[Railperf]

Is there any update on when the 360's will be allowed to run at 110mph south of bedford?

 

[Supercoss]

110 mph restriction for EMU due to be removed in Feb 2026 now, it seems although class 810 can happily run pan up and observe permissible speed indicators with " HST" letters additional monitoring and verification was required on the class 360 fleet to monito oscilation passing under bridges . Pantographs closer together on this stock when in 8 or 12 car formations as opposed to 810
These extra verification checks will be finished in December this year and once data analysed I've been advised Feb 8th 2026
Nineten signs in down direction and 16 in the up direction between Bedford station and Cricklewood to be removed that display EMU 100

 

[Edvid]

Any further updates on the EMU 100 removal?

 

[ChilliSauce]

I've been looking through existing threads but can't find this information so apologies if I'm posting something that has already been discussed.

From what I understand, the EMR Connect services are limited to 100mph south of Bedford.

In recent weeks, there's been engineering works closing the lines between Luton/Bedford and St Pancras to upgrade the overhead power lines.

Does this mean the EMR Connect will be able to run at 110mph between St Pancras and Luton/Bedford? If so, will the journey times change and be reflected in a future timetable update?

They seem to like waiting at Luton Airport Parkway even when delayed and also some of the peak services take slightly longer to Luton (I was told on here this was because of old timetabling due to a TL that used platform 5 at Luton)

What you also have to factor in, is the rather useless timetabling at Wellingborough in that a Corby / London gets delayed on the US awaiting a late running EMR Sheffield to pass on the fast line.

If Transport UK (branded EMR) were serious about running the Corby / London on time they would either adapt the timetable or ensure the Sheffield / London was on time every time passing Wellingborough.

This poor regulation then impacts on the Thameslink service at Harpenden on the US waiting to cross onto the UF.

 

[Bald Rick]

What you also have to factor in, is the rather useless timetabling at Wellingborough in that a Corby / London gets delayed on the US awaiting a late running EMR Sheffield to pass on the fast line.

Useless? Feel free to work out a better solution yourself.

 

[ChilliSauce]

Useless? Feel free to work out a better solution yourself.

You would like to think that Transport UK (trading as EMR) are suppose to be the experts on this.

Sadly they are also lacking with maintaining connections at Kettering when their Nottingham / London is running late ..into the Corby / London srrvice. Including quite happy to close the doors on the 360 on the US as the late 222 pulls in on the UF. Only for the 360 to then depart late from Wellingborough. Hardly a customer service and an organisation that is apparently happy to cause 30 minutes of delay resulting in 50% delay repay.

Transport UK give me the impression that all they are really interested in is running as fast as they can between Leicester / London and maintaining any connections to / from stations in-between is little more than a distraction and inconvenience.

Personally for journeys "to the north" I gave up with Transport UK / EMR / Midland Main Line a long time ago.. Having lost count of the number of delays / cancellations / miss connections at Leicester and/or Kettering when trying to return on EMR from Sheffield. Now preferring to drive over to the ECML. The sad thing is it shouldn't have to be like that.