New US traveler with questions

[marklyn]

My instinct is staff in offices will be better than call centre but calling still worth a try if you can get through

Agreed. I'm not gonna worry about it anymore and just deal with it when I get to the station. The agent I spoke to a few minutes ago gave such conflicting info that it wasn't worth trying to sort it out by phone. If our schedule allowed the later train we'd do that for more comfort, etc., but we really need to do the 10:50a train for this journey. Thanks everyone for your help, especially WL!

 

[WesternLancer]

You could of course just get to the station a littler early so you are first on board, and sit at any unreserved seat in first class and just forget about the seat reservations.

Yes. But the op is really keen on a table for four and I think the 170 train only has one or two such tables. Compared with HST that may have about 10 such tables for four.

The four person table was the ops priority iirc. Second key issue being train time convenience.

 

[WesternLancer]

Agreed. I'm not gonna worry about it anymore and just deal with it when I get to the station. The agent I spoke to a few minutes ago gave such conflicting info that it wasn't worth trying to sort it out by phone. If our schedule allowed the later train we'd do that for more comfort, etc., but we really need to do the 10:50a train for this journey. Thanks everyone for your help, especially WL!

I feared you’d get more garbled info on the phone. But I appreciate your way of going about it. Makes total sense.

 

[WesternLancer]

The 10.50 To Edinburgh was made up of 5 carries (3 carriages of 170 type train with 1st class seats and 2 carriages of 158 type train) today, and kept good time on its journey. Also same make up of train yesterday at that time.

as per here today:

Realtime Trains | 1B26 1050 Inverness to Edinburgh | 12/08/2025

Real-time train running information for 1B26 1050 departure from Inverness to Edinburgh on 12/08/2025. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

The three carriages with the first class arrived on platform 3 at Inverness at 10.28 (the arrival from Glasgow). The 2 carriages of 158 type train was already waiting in that platform to be joined together to make the complete 5 carriage 10.50 departure to Edinburgh.

 

[marklyn]

The 10.50 To Edinburgh was made up of 5 carries (3 carriages of 170 type train with 1st class seats and 2 carriages of 158 type train) today, and kept good time on its journey. Also same make up of train yesterday at that time.

as per here today:

Realtime Trains | 1B26 1050 Inverness to Edinburgh | 12/08/2025

Real-time train running information for 1B26 1050 departure from Inverness to Edinburgh on 12/08/2025. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

The three carriages with the first class arrived on platform 3 at Inverness at 10.28 (the arrival from Glasgow). The 2 carriages of 158 type train was already waiting in that platform to be joined together to make the complete 5 carriage 10.50 departure to Edinburgh.

Thank you! You are the man! Another funny twist. While we were in Aberdeen we stopped by Scotrail and asked them about the train service from Inverness and first class, etc... They told us there was no first class on that train/route! ANyway, we're in Inverness now so I'll stop by the station here to see what happens. Thanks again!

 

[WesternLancer]

Thank you! You are the man! Another funny twist. While we were in Aberdeen we stopped by Scotrail and asked them about the train service from Inverness and first class, etc... They told us there was no first class on that train/route! ANyway, we're in Inverness now so I'll stop by the station here to see what happens. Thanks again!

Cheers - maybe the nearer you get to the actual train the more reliable the info will be... maybe stopping by the station about 10.40am in the morning in the next day or so is the time to do so - but all being well you will have better things to do!

I thought we had established that the 170 train had some first class seats (others here can hopefully confirm this)*

I suspect like other UK train companies they don't print paper timetables with useful information on them any more, to leave in racks at ticket offices, which the staff could then look at for themselves... but they do have them in pdf format - and this is the one for your route:

Your service is on page 29 of the booklet - hope the link works

https://www.scotrail.co.uk/media/55433/download?inline

It does not say much about first class apart from this below which relates to the Inter7City trains (the HST train type) - for the avoidance of doubt the 10.50 is not one of these - you can see 'I7C' at the top of the column for the trains operated by this type of train.

I7C – Service planned to be operated by an iconic Inter7City train, offering First Class, more seats and improved comfort. Sometimes due to disruption another type of train will have to be used to avoid cancellation.

*Edit

Actually their general website has some pretty clear info about 1st class with some pictures

First Class Train Tickets

When you next travel with us between Scotland's cities, make it a First Class train ticket and enjoy First Class rail travel in style.Whether you’re travelling for work or leisure, a seat in First Class gives you quieter surroundings, a comfier seat and more space to get on with your day, which...

www.scotrail.co.uk

pertinent extract

We offer First Class on board selected services connecting Scotland's cities. You'll find First Class on board our Inter7City HSTs, intercity Class 170s and eXpress 385s, all offering bespoke First Class interiors.

The picture with the little table lamp is a 170 train 1st class seating area (that's the 2 seats, other side of the aisle would be a table for 4)

 

[marklyn]

Cheers - maybe the nearer you get to the actual train the more reliable the info will be... maybe stopping by the station about 10.40am in the morning in the next day or so is the time to do so - but all being well you will have better things to do!

I thought we had established that the 170 train had some first class seats (others here can hopefully confirm this)*

I suspect like other UK train companies they don't print paper timetables with useful information on them any more, to leave in racks at ticket offices, which the staff could then look at for themselves... but they do have them in pdf format - and this is the one for your route:

Your service is on page 29 of the booklet - hope the link works

https://www.scotrail.co.uk/media/55433/download?inline

It does not say much about first class apart from this below which relates to the Inter7City trains (the HST train type) - for the avoidance of doubt the 10.50 is not one of these - you can see 'I7C' at the top of the column for the trains operated by this type of train.



*Edit

Actually their general website has some pretty clear info about 1st class with some pictures

First Class Train Tickets

When you next travel with us between Scotland's cities, make it a First Class train ticket and enjoy First Class rail travel in style.Whether you’re travelling for work or leisure, a seat in First Class gives you quieter surroundings, a comfier seat and more space to get on with your day, which...

www.scotrail.co.uk

pertinent extract


The picture with the little table lamp is a 170 train 1st class seating area (that's the 2 seats, other side of the aisle would be a table for 4)

Again, thanks for the great info. You're right, it clearly seems there is first class service available; yet the staff at the Aberdeen said no first class on this route. The timetable is also telling of this. We plan on going down to the station to see for ourselves this morning. The main thing I'd like to accomplish is to either get us moved to FC table seats or refund the difference we paid for FC seating if we are put in standard seating. Good luck to me

 

[Falcon1200]

Inverness/Aberdeen services are operated with a mix of Class 158 trains, 2 cars with no First Class; Class 170 trains, 3 cars with limited First Class; And I7C trains with a full coach of First Class! So it is very much hit and miss whether First is available.

 

[marklyn]

Thanks for the info!

Inverness/Aberdeen services are operated with a mix of Class 158 trains, 2 cars with no First Class; Class 170 trains, 3 cars with limited First Class; And I7C trains with a full coach of First Class! So it is very much hit and miss whether First is available.

 

[WesternLancer]

Inverness/Aberdeen services are operated with a mix of Class 158 trains, 2 cars with no First Class; Class 170 trains, 3 cars with limited First Class; And I7C trains with a full coach of First Class! So it is very much hit and miss whether First is available.

The OP belives they have specificaly allocated reserved seats in the 170 frist class area* for their time of choice, so it should be OK. They can't take the later (I7C) HST service due to the time they need to be in Edinburgh IIRC.

*EDIT
I now note this from up thread

She finally came back with 36B 35B 36F 35F for the seating and I made the connection F=Forward, B=Backwards. But after further research (googling and various AI) everything is pointing to that being standard class because of the high seat numbers.

where the belief if that the reservations are not in 1st class

@marklyn - when in Inverness call at the ticket office with your first class tickets and these reservations - say to staff that you believe the reservations allocated are actually Standard Class seats and you want reservations in the 1st class carriage of the correct part of the train (the 170 type carriages) that offers 1st class seating and see if they can sort that out for you at Inverness Ticket office

Otherwise your options are (ass below) - in my descending order of suggested preference

- get to station early, see if the first class area is unreserved on the day - take the table seats in 1st (I assume the reserved seats will have a paper slip on them as this is what is supposed to happen, so you would know if they are or are not reserved when you board the carriage
or
- sit at the table seats you do have reservation for in Standard Class so you can sit together, and claim the refund in difference in fare between std and 1st class
or
- strongly consider the next train which is the Inter7City HST with much more 1st class and of higher quality (as I said originally I would do this anyway but I know you have a strong preference for the time of train you have opted for)

as per the plan here (page 3) the 170 train only has 9 first class seats which includes only one table for 4. These are in Coach C seats numbered 3f & 3B and 4F&4B (F and B do indeed mean forward and backwards.

https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/seat_maps_updated/response/2980165/attach/3/SRT%201108%20a.pdf?cookie_passthrough=1

So if these are already occupied when you board, or reserved by someone else who may (or may not) join the train en route for example - your options on this type of train in first class are clearly limited given the overall number of seats in the very small first class area.

Seats 36F and B & 35F&B in a 170 train are indeed Standard Class seats with tables (group of 4 seats) and exist in both coach A and Coach B - so that does at least guarantee you the 4 seats together. Stand Class seats are slightly narrower than 1st class seats as you can see from the plan.

I'm probably giving too much info and you will have worked all that out before you left the USA but just in case not.

 

[WesternLancer]

Again, thanks for the great info. You're right, it clearly seems there is first class service available; yet the staff at the Aberdeen said no first class on this route. The timetable is also telling of this. We plan on going down to the station to see for ourselves this morning. The main thing I'd like to accomplish is to either get us moved to FC table seats or refund the difference we paid for FC seating if we are put in standard seating. Good luck to me

Yes, if your first class seat is unavailable (esp if you have a reservation where you were advised it was for a 1st class seat) then you are entitled to a refund of the difference in fare between 1st and Standard class.

People here can help advise on how to make that claim if needs be. In that eventuality it might be worth asking the guard on the train to endorse the tickets to say 1st class was unavailable on the day. I think you may even be entitle to a refund simply if the seats you reserved were not available (even if there were other unreserved first class seats dotted about that you did not want because you wished to travel together although I'm not sure of this specific point - they might reasonably expect you to use other empty first class seats rather than give you a refund for example)

Worth remembering that the standard class areas of the 170 train and the 158 train types also have several tables for 4 people - so if you get to the station early on the day of travel you will have choice in standard class too to sit together as a a fall back - indeed using your existing reservations if you do not cancel them. Assuming those are unreserved seats at the tables on the day.

 

[DarloRich]

I have read all of this thread and looking from the outsiders view ( as provided by @marklyn ) our railway system and processes must seem bonkers!

I hope that aside you have enjoyed your visit , your train journey (which hopefully wasn't late or subject to a reservation failure!) and have not been put off by how mad our country can be sometimes! Honestly it is a great country if a bit odd sometimes.

 

[WesternLancer]

I have read all of this thread and looking from the outsiders view ( as provided by @marklyn ) our railway system and processes must seem bonkers!

Yes, frankly I find it embarrassing as an experienced UK rail user that visitors and indeed UK citizens have to put up with this.

A saga of staff at call centres and ticket offices who don't seem to know the basic facts about the service provided on trains that you pay a lot of money for, nor provide clear answers to reasonable enquiries from prospective travellers.

A baffling system where the train operator can't be bothered to upload simple static seating plans of their fleet to make it easy for a passenger to know what and where their seat will be etc etc, such that you have to find the plans on a Freedom of Information website....

The lack of provisions of simple on line reservation portals that allow you to choose and select your seat of choice to reserve - which some UK train operators can provide but others don't deem worthwhile to provide.

 

[DarloRich]

Yes, frankly I find it embarrassing as an experienced UK rail user that visitors and indeed UK citizens have to put up with this.

A saga of staff at call centres and ticket offices who don't seem to know the basic facts about the service provided on trains that you pay a lot of money for, nor provide clear answers to reasonable enquiries from prospective travellers.

A baffling system where the train operator can't be bothered to upload simple static seating plans of their fleet to make it easy for a passenger to know what and where their seat will be etc etc, such that you have to find the plans on a Freedom of Information website....

The lack of provisions of simple on line reservation portals that allow you to choose and select your seat of choice to reserve - which some UK train operators can provide but others don't deem worthwhile to provide.

HOPEFULLY (!) the emergence of "GBR" will fix some of this. Hopefully. Maybe. Possibly!

 

[marklyn]

I can't go and do too much detail here because I'm on a walking tour but the short and long of it is when we went to the train station. They basically told us to ask to be boarded earlier so that we could get into first class and get seats there. The implication was definitely that there aren't any reserved seats in first class but they are in standard. So we're going to try to do that. Get there early. See if we can get on the car that has first class and grab a table seat for four. Even they kind of shook their head at the station like well. You never know from day to day what cars are going to be on the route.

 

[hexagon789]

I can't go and do too much detail here because I'm on a walking tour but the short and long of it is when we went to the train station. They basically told us to ask to be boarded earlier so that we could get into first class and get seats there. The implication was definitely that there aren't any reserved seats in first class but they are in standard. So we're going to try to do that. Get there early. See if we can get on the car that has first class and grab a table seat for four. Even they kind of shook their head at the station like well. You never know from day to day what cars are going to be on the route.

There are two First Class "cabins", in this case - one is reserveable, and the other is unreserved. (The whole of Coach C is unreserved, in fact, in both First and Standard.)

 

[WesternLancer]

There are two First Class "cabins", in this case - one is reserveable, and the other is unreserved. (The whole of Coach C is unreserved, in fact, in both First and Standard.)

My apologies, I'd not noticed the equivalent first class section in Coach A of the Class 170 type train (presumably the reservable one - in theory reservable anyway) - with the same layout as the one in coach C. Clearly marked on the plan I linked to as well in post #130.

 

[hexagon789]

My apologies, I'd not noticed the equivalent first class section in Coach A of the Class 170 type train (presumably the reservable one - in theory reservable anyway) - with the same layout as the one in coach C. Clearly marked on the plan I linked to as well in post #130.

They are effectively a mirror image, but yes both identical in terms of layout.

 

[WesternLancer]

I can't go and do too much detail here because I'm on a walking tour but the short and long of it is when we went to the train station. They basically told us to ask to be boarded earlier so that we could get into first class and get seats there. The implication was definitely that there aren't any reserved seats in first class but they are in standard. So we're going to try to do that. Get there early. See if we can get on the car that has first class and grab a table seat for four. Even they kind of shook their head at the station like well. You never know from day to day what cars are going to be on the route.

Thanks - this is at least logical advice! But poor that given you pay more for 1st class the facility to actually reserve it not being available makes no 'business sense'.....

I don't know if Inverness station has a barrier line (ie where you need to put your tickets through or on a scanner to get on the platform these days, or if you can just walk on to the platform). but as I indicated above the relevant carriages should arrive in bound at 10.29 so getting there around then or slightly before would be the time I would aim for

I think coaches A, B & C are the 170 train and coaches D & E will be the 158 train. The First Class seats are in coaches A and C.

given @hexagon789 's info, no one else can have reserved the table in coach C, but someone might have been able to do so in Coach A. So logic would say, get on the platform early, look for Coach C (there are doors near the 1st class seats), board and get seated at the table.

I predict coaches D& E to be nearest the concourse entrance end of the platform as that train comes in earlier, from it's earlier journey from Dundee ahead of the 170 train arriving from Glasgow and then the two trains being joined up to make the Edinburgh departure you are seeking to travel on.

 

[hexagon789]

Thanks - this is at least logical advice! But poor that given you pay more for 1st class the facility to actually reserve it not being available makes no 'business sense'.....

I don't know if Inverness station has a barrier line (ie where you need to put your tickets through or on a scanner to get on the platform these days, or if you can just walk on to the platform). but as I indicated above the relevant carriages should arrive in bound at 10.29 so getting there around then or slightly before would be the time I would aim for

I think coaches A, B & C are the 170 train and coaches D & E will be the 158 train. The First Class seats are in coaches A and C.

given @hexagon789 's info, no one else can have reserved the table in coach C, but someone might have been able to do so in Coach A. So logic would say, get on the platform early, look for Coach C (there are doors near the 1st class seats), board and get seated at the table.

I predict coaches D& E to be nearest the concourse end of the platform as that train comes in earlier, from it's earlier journey from Dundee

Inverness has ticket barriers.

 

[WesternLancer]

Inverness has ticket barriers.

Thanks for clarifying. Long time since I was last there!

 

[sh24]

Scotrail not coming out of this very well. The level of inaccurate information is embarrassing.

I hope the OP enjoys the trip despite the hassles!

 

[marklyn]

There are two First Class "cabins", in this case - one is reserveable, and the other is unreserved. (The whole of Coach C is unreserved, in fact, in both First and Standard.)

Maybe if they let us board early due to the excess luggage we have we can go to coach c, being unreserved, and we can get a table seating there. Even if we ended up in coach A we did pay for first class so maybe that would work out.
Yes, it's frustrating but it hasn't clouded our trip and we are still having the best time. I'm just overly appreciative that you guys have continued to assist here and don't want to wear out my welcome

 

[Falcon1200]

They can't take the later (I7C) HST service due to the time they need to be in Edinburgh IIRC.

I was responding to the incorrect statement by Scotrail staff that trains on the route have no First Class, which is not the case.

 

[Starmill]

Maybe if they let us board early due to the excess luggage we have we can go to coach c, being unreserved, and we can get a table seating there. Even if we ended up in coach A we did pay for first class so maybe that would work out.
Yes, it's frustrating but it hasn't clouded our trip and we are still having the best time. I'm just overly appreciative that you guys have continued to assist here and don't want to wear out my welcome

Honestly don't worry - this whole section is largely just for people to ask for and receive travel advice / inspiration etc.

 

[WesternLancer]

Maybe if they let us board early due to the excess luggage we have we can go to coach c, being unreserved, and we can get a table seating there. Even if we ended up in coach A we did pay for first class so maybe that would work out.
Yes, it's frustrating but it hasn't clouded our trip and we are still having the best time. I'm just overly appreciative that you guys have continued to assist here and don't want to wear out my welcome

You are very welcome! V glad you are enjoying your visit.

As you'll gather the boarding process isn't like an Amtrak style system - they may let you through the barrier line promptly but they might not if they don't want others in the queue to go through early, it will probably just depend on the person staffing the barrier on your platform - they might just let you get on to the platform and then you will have to wait for the train doors to be unlocked (usually after they join the 2 bits of train together sometime around 10.30)
so it's best to actually be there in good time to be at the head of the queue to get on the platform.

we can go to coach c, being unreserved, and we can get a table seating there.

Very good chance

Even if we ended up in coach A we did pay for first class so maybe that would work out.

it should also be OK as a fall back - if they could not reserve you a seat there chances are no one else has reserved any either - unless they were already reserved when you tried (or tried to get a member of staff to actually do it)

 

[WesternLancer]

I was responding to the incorrect statement by Scotrail staff that trains on the route have no First Class, which is not the case.

Indeed, thanks.

 

[AlterEgo]

Chalk another victory for Internet anons over trained customer service staff. Such a terrible and embarrassing situation. So much entrenched incompetence. Hope the OP has a decent journey regardless.

 

[marklyn]

Chalk another victory for Internet anons over trained customer service staff. Such a terrible and embarrassing situation. So much entrenched incompetence. Hope the OP has a decent journey regardless.

Oh I will. It's certainly not the end of the world if we are sitting in second class (not even at table seating) but it would be nice to not have to worry about it. The other (new) thing that is making me anxious is that our friends brought some LARGE luggage. My partner and I have two 26" soft side suitcases and two backpacks. They have 1 LARGE hard side suitcase, 1 26" hard side suit case, two hard side carry ons and 1 backpack. I tried to explain to them (prior to trip) minimize your luggage because you don't know what type of storage is on a given train. We might have them hunting car to car to put their luggage somewhere
Today is the day. I'll do a final chapter of what happened later on the trip.

By the way, I just found this and it is apparently for our journey today.

 

[WesternLancer]

Oh I will. It's certainly not the end of the world if we are sitting in second class (not even at table seating) but it would be nice to not have to worry about it. The other (new) thing that is making me anxious is that our friends brought some LARGE luggage. My partner and I have two 26" soft side suitcases and two backpacks. They have 1 LARGE hard side suitcase, 1 26" hard side suit case, two hard side carry ons and 1 backpack. I tried to explain to them (prior to trip) minimize your luggage because you don't know what type of storage is on a given train. We might have them hunting car to car to put their luggage somewhere
Today is the day. I'll do a final chapter of what happened later on the trip.

Large luggage isn’t ideal as you predicted. The trains have some space at the end of each carriage but of course you won’t be the only people with bags. There are also racks above the seats for smaller bags and you can get some bags between seat backs where groups of four seats are back to back but that doesn’t exist in the small first class area on the 170 trains. People do leave bags in the area by the doors so long as doors are not blocked but the downside of this is you can’t keep an eye on it so easily.

The key question boils down to how many other first class ticket holders will be travelling. This is hard to
Predict but it is peak holiday season so I’d expect more travellers in general and that would probably include some with first class like you guys.

The HST trains would be better in this regard as there is simply much more first class space allocated. Including space for luggage.

Very best of luck for having a comfortable and pleasant journey.

You can expect some good scenery as you travel south through the highlands down towards Perth from either side of the train at different parts of the journey.

Ps yes. That is your journey I think. Showing the exact train carriages allocated and indicating the intended departure platform. Platform 3. In theory this could change if some unforeseen situation arises but it’s unlikely to change.