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Service reductions to save money?

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JonathanH

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I don't think passenger numbers to either are massive, but as almost all of the Thameslink network is based around 2tph, I think that would mean telling Bedford (Luton, St. Albans) or Cambridge (Stevenage) that they're losing all of their off-peak Brighton services (not that somewhere like City Thameslink is a particularly difficult interchange).
The Thameslink services would run from the North as far as Blackfriars and terminate there before going forward to Herne Hill siding to reverse, so no need to cut back north of London if passenger numbers warrant the service level there but not south of London.

Given the use of 12-car units, Peterborough to Horsham provides more than enough off-peak capacity for the demand on the Redhill route. There are some weekends when it is the only train which runs through Redhill, with additional stops as necessary, and Reigate served by extension of the Redhill to Tonbridge service.

However, people tend to be accustomed to a more frequent service with stops shared between the services and through links enabled.

It is notable that on SWR (and elsewhere in the South East) where the off-peak service has been cut back to more sustainable levels, this attracts criticism in this forum that services 'haven't been restored to the pre-2020 timetable', despite this being exactly what this thread is suggesting for elsewhere.
 
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Bletchleyite

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It is notable that on SWR (and elsewhere in the South East) where the off-peak service has been cut back to more sustainable levels, this attracts criticism in this forum that services 'haven't been restored to the pre-2020 timetable', despite this being exactly what this thread is suggesting for elsewhere.

My general view was (which I know differs from some here) that COVID provided a useful break in this regard to get things back to more sensible levels. Certain parts of the network (most notably the south WCML and Castlefield) had had far too much piled onto them, often with far too many variables to mess up punctuality, and this was never sustainable, but without that "break" might have carried on longer to disastrous effect.

I'm not up for mass closures (there are some I'd concede to, but they are deliberately OT for this thread as there's been one about those quite recently) but I do think there is scope for sensible rationalisation involving giving people something they might like (e.g. longer trains, higher quality trains, improved punctuality or through operation to their preferred destination) in return for a few targeted cuts with an overall saving. That's where I'm going with the Southport/Headbolt proposals, for instance. There'd be a bit less gain by lopping Cumbria back to Preston (though it has been lopped to there for part of the day before so isn't disastrous) though there are possible improvements that could be done with that one, e.g. a fully clockface Preston-Carlisle service every hour rather than the slightly messy service that exists at present with some services requiring a change at Barrow and some not. In the event of the tunnel closure becoming permanent, I'd certainly run all services from "Whitehaven South" through to Preston on an hourly clockface basis.
 

The Planner

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Do Sandbach and Holmes Chapel need connectivity to Handforth and Cheadle Hulme? As for Goostrey and Chelford I'm not at all convinced they need a daytime off peak service at all. The passenger numbers are tiny.
Doesn't solve the fact the connections make the journeys far worse. If you are just going by numbers then Styal, Mobberley, Adlington, Plumley, Acton Grange, Prestbury, Lostock Gralam, Delamere, Neston, Gorton, Ryder Brow, Belle Vue , Middlewood, Furness Vale, Fairfield and so on and so forth all should have no off peak service.
 

Starmill

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The Gospel Oak to Barking Riverside 4tph could likely be reduced to 3tph off-peak, the services are always very lightly loaded in my experience.
Thirty minute gaps would result in a lot of complaints. Twenty minute gaps would be very very difficult to implement around fifteen minute gaps and freight.

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I don't really want to turn this into another neo-Beeching thread - if you want one of those can I suggest starting one separately? In any case, I think Headbolt and Ellesmere Port-Helsby would be better as part of Merseyrail - this wouldn't reduce costs, but combined with significant housing development (e.g. in Ince and Elton and Helsby itself) may provide a viable alternative to considering total closure.
The issue is that you're largely looking at cutting relatively well used services in this thread, some of which are only recently introduced (or re-introduced). These losses in capacity can't really be mitigated either.
 

Magdalia

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I am not at all convinced that the Brighton line warrants 10TPH South of Gatwick on weekday off peak hours (weekends are potentially different).

I don't think passenger numbers to either are massive

The BML is probably a candidate, especially the set 12 car 700s services.
Look at the numbers. They are massive.

Of stations outside London, Gatwick Airport is 6th busiest and Brighton is 7th busiest. Only Birmingham New Street, Manchester Piccadilly, Glasgow Central, Leeds and Edinburgh are busier.

The Brighton Main Line has lots of trains because it has lots of passengers.
 

A S Leib

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Tring semifasts - these are very quiet during the day on weekdays and at some times on weekends e.g. early Sunday mornings. While it would require diagram changes because they interwork with the MKC stopper, I would propose that these are reduced to a "peak extras only" service, including Saturday and Sunday shopping peaks (though how necessary the latter are would depend on passenger loading surveys). In compensation, the half-hourly MKC stoppers would be worked by 10-car 730/2 formations at all times, providing plenty of capacity. This would also reduce the need for shunting, which can be a cost saving in itself, if most 730/2s remained in semi permanent pairs.
I think up to half an hour is too long of a gap for fast Watford Junction services (unless both Birminghams stopped at Watford and were spread roughly evenly with Milton Keynes services?), and half an hour's wait for what is, at most, a forty minute journey to London isn't particularly attractive either.
 

deltic

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There are lots of very early morning/overnight trains that could be removed across the network that are little used and which are often cancelled or replaced by buses due to engineering works. Eg Services to and from Bedford and Manchester Airport.
 

JonathanH

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There are lots of very early morning/overnight trains that could be removed across the network that are little used and which are often cancelled or replaced by buses due to engineering works. Eg Services to and from Bedford and Manchester Airport.
Whilst true, those services provide passengers with a journey opportunit that can't easily be substituted by other means. Cutting frequency just makes passengers have to wait a little longer between trains.
 

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I think up to half an hour is too long of a gap for fast Watford Junction services (unless both Birminghams stopped at Watford and were spread roughly evenly with Milton Keynes services?), and half an hour's wait for what is, at most, a forty minute journey to London isn't particularly attractive either.

Half hourly is a perfectly typical frequency for commuter services. I can't see an issue on weekdays during the day myself. I'd still run them M-F 0630-1000 and 1500-1930ish, plus all day Sat and Sun, just not during the day on weekdays when demand is really very low.

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The issue is that you're largely looking at cutting relatively well used services in this thread, some of which are only recently introduced (or re-introduced). These losses in capacity can't really be mitigated either.

They can, by running longer trains, though in many cases (e.g. the Trings during the day) ridership would easily fit in a 153.
 
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cle

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I think it's more stable through the weekend day, I suppose.

And certainly some of the service to Brighton, to airports etc is far busier on weekends, as well as travellers into London, always. So the peak balance is maybe lesser as Londoners/other city dwellers head outbound too.

Indeed, the humble British coast as a whole is gangbusters - be it Norfolk, the trendy Thanet and HS1 places, or a new-found post-pandy love for the West Country and Lakes.

Rail is hugely important for all of that, thanks to the Victorians and their holidays.
 

Starmill

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They can, by running longer trains, though in many cases (e.g. the Trings during the day) ridership would easily fit in a 153.
On most of these routes longer trains aren't feasible, beyond the current committed spec.
 

Bletchleyite

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On most of these routes longer trains aren't feasible, beyond the current committed spec.

The Euston-MKC local absolutely is getting a big capacity gain anyway, from 8.350 to 10.730.

A lot of the routes under discussion aren't super busy during the day on weekdays - this is where most of the likely money-saving cuts could fall. An example of one that was already done (which was moaned about a bit but was probably appropriate) was taking Aylesbury Vale down from 2 to 1tph for a few hours during the day on weekdays, and I think that could easily be widened to 1000-1500ish. In school holidays longer trains can run than the 2-car which would be more than sufficient at those times otherwise. The drop to hourly Saturday and Sunday was maybe less of a good idea but it is adequate for the numbers using 3-4 car trains.
 
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Look at the numbers. They are massive.

Of stations outside London, Gatwick Airport is 6th busiest and Brighton is 7th busiest. Only Birmingham New Street, Manchester Piccadilly, Glasgow Central, Leeds and Edinburgh are busier.

The Brighton Main Line has lots of trains because it has lots of passengers.
Yes it does, but there are days of the week and times of the day when it doesn't need all the capacity (and associated cost) that is has today, specifically during the middle of the day on weekdays. Gatwick is very busy, but the bulk of those customers are coming from North of Gatwick. Brighton is very busy, but not all that volume is coming from the London direction and certainly not in the hours around lunchtime on a weekday. That is why I proposed the changes that I proposed.
 

Bletchleyite

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Yes it does, but there are days of the week and times of the day when it doesn't need all the capacity (and associated cost) that is has today, specifically during the middle of the day on weekdays. Gatwick is very busy, but the bulk of those customers are coming from North of Gatwick. Brighton is very busy, but not all that volume is coming from the London direction and certainly not in the hours around lunchtime on a weekday. That is why I proposed the changes that I proposed.

We often slight SNCF for their "white periods" in the middle of weekdays, but I think these are really at the heart of the issue - demand is extremely low at these times outside of school holidays and many commuter type routes could stand a significant service decrease at these times.
 

signed

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There are lots of very early morning/overnight trains that could be removed across the network that are little used and which are often cancelled or replaced by buses due to engineering works. Eg Services to and from Bedford and Manchester Airport.
With the advent of low-cost carriers doing stupid-o-clock flights, I wouldn't be cutting any of those especially when those serve airports
 

Bertie the bus

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Doesn't solve the fact the connections make the journeys far worse. If you are just going by numbers then Styal, Mobberley, Adlington, Plumley, Acton Grange, Prestbury, Lostock Gralam, Delamere, Neston, Gorton, Ryder Brow, Belle Vue , Middlewood, Furness Vale, Fairfield and so on and so forth all should have no off peak service.
I wasn't just going on numbers and you are not comparing like with like. The Manchester - Stoke stopper is only hourly which is the minimum that could be realistically run. Not stopping at Prestbury wouldn't save any money as the service would run anyway. Removing the Man - Crewe via Stockport would save money. It would result in Chelford and Goostrey not having an off peak service but I didn't suggest that is the reason it should be done.

I'm not going to convince you getting rid of that service would be reasonable and you're not going to convince me it wouldn't so we should just agree to disagree.
 

Starmill

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I wasn't just going on numbers and you are not comparing like with like. The Manchester - Stoke stopper is only hourly which is the minimum that could be realistically run. Not stopping at Prestbury wouldn't save any money as the service would run anyway. Removing the Man - Crewe via Stockport would save money. It would result in Chelford and Goostrey not having an off peak service but I didn't suggest that is the reason it should be done.

I'm not going to convince you getting rid of that service would be reasonable and you're not going to convince me it wouldn't so we should just agree to disagree.
The problem with a lot of these suggestions is that they would either a) torpedo demand so much relative to the cost savings and b) actually risk not saving anything at all because the existing diagrams for trains and crew are already quite efficient, and the new ones couldn't be. There is every chance value for subsidy money is actually worse by making some of these cuts rather than better.

There's actually a good reason why these discussions are often focused on services which next to nobody uses, or which cost much more than usual to provide (e.g. Stranraer, Ffestiniog, Brigg, Knottingley - Goole, Ellesmere Port - Helsby). If you set the terms of reference to rule out any changes on those you are left cutting things which will hurt.
 

Bletchleyite

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There's actually a good reason why these discussions are often focused on services which next to nobody uses, or which cost much more than usual to provide (e.g. Stranraer, Ffestiniog, Brigg, Knottingley - Goole, Ellesmere Port - Helsby). If you set the terms of reference to rule out any changes on those you are left cutting things which will hurt.

I've already stated that the reason I have kept total closures out of this thread is that we have had a few such threads already. If you do wish to discuss those as an option, you could always re-awaken one of those threads and start a spinoff there, or create a new one. Otherwise this thread will just become swamped with the usual robust Serpell vs. "preserve the network in aspic" that those threads typically descend into. Additionally, if saving a lot of money is necessary, you'd potentially do both anyway, so it's not an either-or and thus doesn't need to be in the same thread.

I don't agree with your latter point, though. Removing the Tring semifasts from approximately 1000 to 1500 would not "hurt" any more than taking Aylesbury down to hourly between those times has (people have whinged about it, but it hasn't really *hurt*). Half hourly is a perfectly respectable frequency for a suburban commuter service, and such services are typically very quiet during the day on weekdays. Similarly, I don't think Southport would be seriously hurt by reversing things back to the pre-1998 timetable (hourly Castlefield with a peak extra to Victoria each way in the morning/evening as appropriate) with all trains 4 car, it worked perfectly well then and it would work perfectly well now.

Also note that going 4 to 2tph isn't very painful at all, whereas going 1 to 0.5tph very much is. People use Merseyrail on Sundays and aren't standing there crying their eyes out that the frequency is half that on equally busy shopping Saturday. But if you wanted to adapt the frequencies to true demand, you'd be going 4tph noon-5pm Sundays and dropping to two 10am-3pm weekdays, to be honest.
 

Starmill

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I don't agree with your latter point, though. Removing the Tring semifasts from approximately 1000 to 1500 would not "hurt" any more than taking Aylesbury down to hourly between those times has (people have whinged about it, but it hasn't really *hurt*)
If you limited it to that, you're probably right. But if that's what you do, the savings from having the train go empty to the sidings for three hours and then come back later are trivial. Electricity, maintenance miles and some (very) minor conductor diagram efficiencies.
 

Bletchleyite

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If you limited it to that, you're probably right. But if that's what you do, the savings from having the train go empty to the sidings for three hours and then come back later are trivial. Electricity, maintenance miles and some (very) minor conductor diagram efficiencies.

Potentially significant staffing savings given the long operating day of the south WCML which probably essentially makes it a three-shift day. Perhaps less so on a branch line with a 7am-9pm service which would be roughly two shifts. (I know it's not quite that simple given things like breaks etc!)

You'll always have units laid up on commuter networks, that's unavoidable. We'd just be laying up a few more pairs of 730/2s during the day.

In any case if what you are saying is true then we should run the present peak extras all day too, as the savings from not doing are negligible - except the savings from only running them in the peaks aren't negligible, or we would run them all day!
 

Starmill

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Potentially significant staffing savings given the long operating day of the south WCML which probably essentially makes it a three-shift day. Perhaps less so on a branch line with a 7am-9pm service which would be roughly two shifts. (I know it's not quite that simple given things like breaks etc!)

You'll always have units laid up on commuter networks, that's unavoidable. We'd just be laying up a few more pairs of 730/2s during the day.
If you take the driver off a round trip to Tring and instead wait for the train to be disposed, then wait for a gap to get into the sidings, drive the empty stock to the carriage sidings, then taxi / pass back to their depot to book off, plus repeat all this in the reverse direction, you save 1-2 hours of driver time in a whole day, which isn't useful for anything else. It's not like you can realistically give the driver any other productive work, nor save any whole diagrams / reduce headcounts. Even for a conductor this would be pretty difficult.
 

Magdalia

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Yes it does, but there are days of the week and times of the day when it doesn't need all the capacity (and associated cost) that is has today, specifically during the middle of the day on weekdays. Gatwick is very busy, but the bulk of those customers are coming from North of Gatwick. Brighton is very busy, but not all that volume is coming from the London direction and certainly not in the hours around lunchtime on a weekday. That is why I proposed the changes that I proposed.
There are only 3 routes in and out of Brighton: main line and the 2 coastway routes.

Again, look at the numbers.

The top 5 destinations for Brighton are all on the main line: Victoria, Blackfriars, London Bridge, Gatwick Airport and Haywards Heath.

East Croydon is 8th, Burgess Hill is 10th, Hassocks is 12th, Farringdon is 14th and Three Bridges 16th.

Brighton is the only limb of Thameslink where loads don't tail off towards the extremity. From London passengers getting off are replaced by others getting on.

Brighton is a major destination and there are big short distance flows on the main line:

Haywards Heath is bigger than Lewes
East Croydon is bigger than Worthing
Burgess Hill is bigger than Eastbourne
Hassocks is bigger than Shoreham

There is all day volume and much of it is intermediate stations, not London.
 

markymark2000

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Not so much scrap but replace would be to remove Avanti West Coasts services to Wrexham. The link to Wrexham is a really poor use of a 805 as it only carries a handful of passengers, and in a good few cases journeys could be completed by changing at Chester.
Mon-Sat morning journey, TFW runs 6 minutes earlier anyway so no real loss. The evening journey would need covering but would likely be much better in the hands of TFW operating a small 197. TFW already run an ECS train Mon-Fri from Chester to Wrexham at 20:40, put a guard on this, run it in service, you have a viable replacement for the Avanti service (given it's often late anyway, 20:40 is probably a good time to run such a service). Saturday evenings has a TFW service 15 minutes behind anyway.
Sunday service replacement would be a bit harder to cover with TFW but this never existed until recently so don't think it would be hugely missed.

Path dependent, you could save an hour of staff time and the unit could back back in the depot an hour earlier (with possibly more savings too Mon-Fri evenings as it runs as a 10 car to Chester, with 5 dropping off at Chester to return to Crewe and another 5 running onto Wrexham. If Wrexham wasn't served, realistically rear 5 could be dropped at Crewe and then just run onto Chester with the front 5).
Political to cut granted, but it would save something on staff and training day to day, plus no need for route knowledge to be retained which may reduce training costs/time slightly. It's not a diversion route either so it's not like route knowledge being lost would negatively effect anything else.

WCML fast service - remove the newly introduced Birmingham semifast aside from peak extras; replace with adding the calls back into the Scotland service. This service is not well used and due to the high fares the 2tph Birmingham wasn't generally full because people prefer the WMT services as a better price-speed balance. Consider terminating some Scotland via Birmingham trains at Preston/Blackpool again if these are quiet.
Could a better argument here not be rather than cutting the service, it should be more appropriately priced for the lower demand and attract people onboard rather than cut the service (2 people paying £30 is better than 1 person paying £50 for example).
 

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Is this a thought experiment or a position actually endorsed by the OP?

London Intercity and London & South East commuter services are traditionally premium-paying operations. Yes finances took a hit over Covid but there are sure signs things are heady back towards surplus territory.

For as long as peak capacity is needed the rolling stock capital cost is sunk (and in less theoretical terms you are already tied into lease contracts). In practice some of the staff costs are sunk as well as people tend to prefer being employed over 7.5-hour shifts and unions will have something to say if too many people are asked to work split shifts. It really doesn't take a lot of marginal passenger revenue to justify the cost of a marginal off-peak service.

During the last government's subsidy reduction drive, TOCs were at pains to point out the way to reduce subsidy was to grow revenue and restore services to pre-Covid levels where it made sense, and even the last government eventually got the message. The same experience is repeated at TfL quarters, and indeed TfL finances bounced back rather more quickly than DfT TOCs.
 

London Trains

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Simple answer, no. Another way of describing these suggestions is managed decline, and it would be a case of the rail network shooting itself in the foot given the increases being seen in off-peak travel.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

Could a better argument here not be rather than cutting the service, it should be more appropriately priced for the lower demand and attract people onboard rather than cut the service (2 people paying £30 is better than 1 person paying £50 for example).
Maybe the standard off-peak ticket price for London to Birmingham should be lowered and the LNWR only tickets scrapped as part of GBR, which would fill up the Avanti services and leave the LNWR services for their intended use of shorter distance journeys.
 
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markymark2000

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Simple answer, no. Another way of describing these suggestions is managed decline, and it would be a case of the rail network shooting itself in the foot given the increases being seen in off-peak travel.
I 99% agree with you but I do think that some fat could be cut service wise to reduce services or better use resources. If a train is regularly empty, irrespective of the 'trend' in off peak travel, its silly running it, especially if there are alternatives.
 

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It's noted in this thread:


...that there's a choice between service reductions and fare increases to cut the cost of the railway to the Treasury. So what options are there to reduce services without causing major pain? It should be noted that complete closures of any line or station, or reduction thereof to a Parliamentary service i.e. one at a useless time or uselessly infrequent compared to what runs now, are out of scope of this thread - it is purely about what could be done to save money by reducing services without major pain. Major pain would be making a service basically useless or causing severe overcrowding such that people would be left behind. If possible, give the users of the line/station something that they might like in return for the cuts, provided it does not substantially increase cost, thus negating the point. It is also unlikely to be viable to impose these cuts on main InterCity routes.

This is essentially in the spirit of the "Tartan Taktfahrplan", a scheme that took place in Scotland in the 1980s (?) which reduced services but brought them into a clockface pattern, which gave something in return for the cut. Thus, bonus for suggestions that make a line have a clockface service if it did not before, though there are exceptions where the frequency is below hourly when this starts to become a disbenefit rather than a benefit.

A few starters.

Tring semifasts - these are very quiet during the day on weekdays and at some times on weekends e.g. early Sunday mornings. While it would require diagram changes because they interwork with the MKC stopper, I would propose that these are reduced to a "peak extras only" service, including Saturday and Sunday shopping peaks (though how necessary the latter are would depend on passenger loading surveys). In compensation, the half-hourly MKC stoppers would be worked by 10-car 730/2 formations at all times, providing plenty of capacity. This would also reduce the need for shunting, which can be a cost saving in itself, if most 730/2s remained in semi permanent pairs.

Southport line - reduce to hourly, but find a way to make it an hourly Manchester Airport (or Piccadilly using the reversing siding)-Southport service as that seems to be what most users of that line want. A couple of peak extras each way to be added to Victoria. This is basically the pre-1998 but post-Windsor Link service. All services to be maximum length (4 car?)

WCML fast service - remove the newly introduced Birmingham semifast aside from peak extras; replace with adding the calls back into the Scotland service. This service is not well used and due to the high fares the 2tph Birmingham wasn't generally full because people prefer the WMT services as a better price-speed balance. Consider terminating some Scotland via Birmingham trains at Preston/Blackpool again if these are quiet.

Conwy Valley - reduce the number of train pairs slightly, but rather than a blind every-3-hours service target specific trains to specific purposes. I've proposed a timetable for this elsewhere before. Consider turning some trains at Betws to enable this further, but retain at least three trains per day south thereof, again with due consideration of times being most useful.

Morecambe - reduce to hourly clockface so far as possible; consider making it a simple single unit shuttle rather than through services from Yorkshire though these may be useful in terms of maintaining Heysham service.

Any more suggestions?
Many of these suggestions depend very much on the time of year. Southport, Conwy Valley, and Morecambe somewhat, are all very well loaded during peak Summer, but less so at other times of year in my experience.

I agree with reducing Morecambe to an hourly clockface service off peak, however I would retain through services to Leeds in peak Summer (perhaps 2 hourly), along with peak time additionals, and also extend the Heysham service back to Leeds (the service starting at Lancaster drastically reduced its passenger numbers).

During peak summer on Conwy Valley, there might possibly be demand for a second train utilising the passing loop at North Llanwrst, terminating at Betws-y-Coed, and providing Llandudno to Junction shuttles at the times when the regular service is running to Blaenau.

I fully agree with removing the Tring service off peak - there are far too many suburban services around London that carry air at most times of day in my experience.
 

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I agree with reducing Morecambe to an hourly clockface service off peak, however I would retain through services to Leeds in peak Summer (perhaps 2 hourly), along with peak time additionals, and also extend the Heysham service back to Leeds (the service starting at Lancaster drastically reduced its passenger numbers).

Heysham is a difficult one - I can't help but think it would be better as a coach service managed by Steam Packet (as that could easily adapt to the ferry times, which frequently change due to weather) and that would much more easily enable the railway going fully clockface, but then that's against the premise of my thread! :)

OK, I'll allow myself one off topic suggestion given that @Starmill did too :)

Having said that the Leeds services do provide an opportunity to maintain hourly perfect clockface if they can come in to do a round trip while the other unit heads off to Heysham (or the same if it's the Leeds unit that does that while the other one carries on shuttling). The Leeds unit also potentially provides for breaks for the shuttle unit's crew and thus keeping the diagrams simple and dedicated, though knowing Northern they'd probably still have them working a load of other stuff and knocking on delays rather than just dedicating a couple of shifts to nothing but the shuttles.

Hourly clockface would presumably also be easier to path on the WCML?

During peak summer on Conwy Valley, there might possibly be demand for a second train utilising the passing loop at North Llanwrst, terminating at Betws-y-Coed, and providing Llandudno to Junction shuttles at the times when the regular service is running to Blaenau.

The problem with the Valley before was that it was the only service using a 150/153 aside from emergency substitutions so there was no flexibility to have a second unit do services for part of the day. This, once they are all in service, is no longer true with 175s operating everything on the North Wales Coast bar the LHCS, and there is thus more flexibility to do a bit more with the Valley. TfW have certainly in the past talked about through services from Manchester, for example, which could be easily portion worked off a Llandudno service and could indeed allow a second unit at some times of day without the massive cost of having a second unit and crew dedicated all day.

Though don't I recall reading Llanrwst loop can no longer allow passing because something in the setup is no longer certified, so that'd need fixing? Or am I thinking of somewhere else?

I fully agree with removing the Tring service off peak - there are far too many suburban services around London that carry air at most times of day in my experience.

These are probably where there is the greatest potential for savings, particularly if it's possible to stable the units in the London terminus (ready for doing a run back as the evening peak starts) if there are enough spare platforms for this, as that then saves the time spent carting them off for stabling which would, as others note, use up time either side of any such gap. The half hourly Tring semifast I think requires three pairs of units, you could probably leave one pair in the Tring bay (unused if the service isn't running), one pair in a Euston middle road and one pair in a platform that would otherwise be used for that service were it running?
 

Class15

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I fully agree with removing the Tring service off peak - there are far too many suburban services around London that carry air at most times of day in my experience.
The issue with removing the Tring service off-peak is that, as detailed upthread, it doesn’t actually save that many costs. Plus, leaving Harrow & Wealdstone and Watford Junction with two less fast trains into London Euston per hour is not likely to go down well.

What are the big advantages of ditching Tring services off-peak?

Which are the other suburban services that carry ‘fresh air’?
 
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