Lothian Group discussion (Lothian City, Lothian Country Bus and East Coast Buses)

[stevenedin]

The more I see Edinburgh expanding the more I see a case for all of these routes going out to Midlothian and East Lothian needing to be separate routes. The length of them keeps growing and growing to the point that delays are inevitable.

If this super depot goes ahead that was rumoured somewhere here it would make a good case for East Coast buses to expand more into Midlothian and replace the Lothian routes and also the Lothian routes in East Lothian too.

 

[airantraigh]

I've heard Electric.

That makes sense ngl, I heard that would happen at the last service change and wasn’t to be and unsure if it had changed. Thank you

 

[Bus9120UK]

That makes sense ngl, I heard that would happen at the last service change and wasn’t to be and unsure if it had changed. Thank you

The question is if the 1 will start with electrics in September (leading to other routes gaining diesels back on a temporary basis) or if they'll wait for Central's chunk of the second batch of BZLs to arrive before they start to electrify the route.

 

[stantheman]

847 heading south down Morningside Road about 1630 today ?

 

[stevenedin]

847 heading south down Morningside Road about 1630 today ?

I saw it earlier screened 'Driver Training'.

 

[Baileygirl]

The new 73 seems an interesting route. Eliburn Park hasn't had or not that I can remember having had a bus service before.

First 800 used to go along that road also garage services to / from Livingston and East Calder. There are a lot of new houses built or being built on the route.

 

[SoloSR334022]

Have Lothian Country picked up a School Bus run on the 74? The 07:23 departure runs from Blackburn to Bathgate Fire Station (for Bathgate Academy, I assume.) It's marked as only running during school term.

 

[paravostok]

Have Lothian Country picked up a School Bus run on the 74? The 07:23 departure runs from Blackburn to Bathgate Fire Station (for Bathgate Academy, I assume.) It's marked as only running during school term.

That would be interesting, considering that removing school buses has been in the conversation before, though I don't believe the network is sufficient yet for it, some members of the council seem strongly against spending money on school buses.
West Lothian pupils could be asked to use public buses after councillor questions cost of school transport

 

[mb88]

Have Lothian Country picked up a School Bus run on the 74? The 07:23 departure runs from Blackburn to Bathgate Fire Station (for Bathgate Academy, I assume.) It's marked as only running during school term.

Yes as the current 73 which leaves Blackburn round about that time gets absolutely loaded with school kids going from Wester Inch to Bathgate Academy meaning by time it gets to the town centre there’s little to no room on it for folk going to Livingston. It’s a very smart move.

 

[LiviCrazy]

Can’t help but feel the Lothian Country Network is starting to feel like the pre-2018 First network. Constant tweaking and extensions to routes to try and make them serve everywhere rather than properly amending them (like when First combined the X15, 15A and X14 into one mammoth Livingston to Glasgow journey). They’ll be busy because people still have no alternative unless they drive.

And on the note of Houston Road, I believe the First/McGills X23 was going that way latterly.

 

[FlybeDash8Q400]

Can’t help but feel the Lothian Country Network is starting to feel like the pre-2018 First network. Constant tweaking and extensions to routes to try and make them serve everywhere rather than properly amending them (like when First combined the X15, 15A and X14 into one mammoth Livingston to Glasgow journey). They’ll be busy because people still have no alternative unless they drive.

And on the note of Houston Road, I believe the First/McGills X23 was going that way latterly.

As I say, it should only take one extra route to break that feeling. I would imagine this will be the set up for at least the next 12 months; I can’t see changes happening in April 2026. You’re right the current routes are doing too much, but equally as you say they’re playing their cards completely on the no alternative theory.

I think once everywhere is served, then adjustments can hopefully be made to create a more user friendly network. If anything, they’ll have to as it’ll just crack. The amount of areas left unserved or obvious connections missing at this point feels pretty low, but still a few too many for my liking.

First last managed to serve most of the area comfortably with 11 routes. 21, 22, 23/X23, 24/X24, 25/X25, 26, 27 and 29. Both the 24/X24 and 25/X25 would eventually just be a 24 and 25 and if I remember correctly the X24 and X25 were just limited stops peak only version of the 24 and 25. Its route was the same.

 

[overthewater]

As I say, it should only take one extra route to break that feeling. I would imagine this will be the set up for at least the next 12 months; I can’t see changes happening in April 2026. You’re right the current routes are doing too much, but equally as you say they’re playing their cards completely on the no alternative theory.

I think once everywhere is served, then adjustments can hopefully be made to create a more user friendly network. If anything, they’ll have to as it’ll just crack. The amount of areas left unserved or obvious connections missing at this point feels pretty low, but still a few too many for my liking.

First last managed to serve most of the area comfortably with 11 routes. 21, 22, 23/X23, 24/X24, 25/X25, 26, 27 and 29. Both the 24/X24 and 25/X25 would eventually just be a 24 and 25 and if I remember correctly the X24 and X25 were just limited stops peak only version of the 24 and 25. Its route was the same.

If the management were smart ( Unfortunley there not and this has been prove time and time again, ever since they started operating the no43) The would try and make a further changes in April 2026 and then leave it at that. As highlighted in Speculation thread they could make further long lasting improvements with only 2-3 extra buses, infact what were looking for is another 6-10 buses to make the network whole again, but would need to be built upon every 6 months.

Livingston to Broxburn needs to get improved to every 30min sooner rather than later and I doubt passengers goodwill will tolerate having to wait another full year.

 

[Baileygirl]

Can’t help but feel the Lothian Country Network is starting to feel like the pre-2018 First network. Constant tweaking and extensions to routes to try and make them serve everywhere rather than properly amending them (like when First combined the X15, 15A and X14 into one mammoth Livingston to Glasgow journey). They’ll be busy because people still have no alternative unless they drive.

And on the note of Houston Road, I believe the First/McGills X23 was going that way latterly.

The X23 went down Eliburn Road and up Appleton Parkway and only a small section of Houston Road. It did not pass the park or station.

I feel that the 73 going through Livingston Village was a last minute decision due to the protests and council pressure. I think not for this it would have been the 280 route going via St Johns and Ladywell.

 

[LiviCrazy]

The X23 went down Eliburn Road and up Appleton Parkway and only a small section of Houston Road. It did not pass the park or station.

I feel that the 73 going through Livingston Village was a last minute decision due to the protests and council pressure. I think not for this it would have been the 280 route going via St Johns and Ladywell.

Of course. I misremembered that one.

 

[FlybeDash8Q400]

I feel that the 73 going through Livingston Village was a last minute decision due to the protests and council pressure. I think not for this it would have been the 280 route going via St Johns and Ladywell.

That would be a fair conclusion. It’s a shame as now we’ve ended up with a much more complicated set up than is necessary.

 

[Metal Mickey]

The route around Armadale as always anticlockwise, which reflect route 29.

The 25 and 800 served the loop west to east heading towards Bathville and Bathgate and the 73 should’ve been routed to do the same for continuity.

The 29 wasn’t that well used in Armadale and was cut to operate between Falkirk and Avonbridge with the exception of tendered journeys in late 2019.

 

[Vectron383]

Currently sweltering on a 38, and wondering why, across the whole fleet, the windows are barely larger than the opening to a postbox… I’m sure somebody here knows why?

 

[scosutsut]

Currently sweltering on a 38, and wondering why, across the whole fleet, the windows are barely larger than the opening to a postbox… I’m sure somebody here knows why?

I'm guessing current design was reached with cost / safety and ease of maintenance in mind. Don't feel it's evolved much in the last 40+ years really? Obviously not a Lothian specific issue.

Worth a rethink in modern times tho? Whether you prescribe to global warming or not, things aren't cooling down any. I'd prefer AC to become defacto standard on electrics and phased in that way. Not looking like that will happen though, it's still uncommon (cost I assume is the main driver there)

 

[FlybeDash8Q400]

The 25 and 800 served the loop west to east heading towards Bathville and Bathgate and the 73 should’ve been routed to do the same for continuity.

The 29 wasn’t that well used in Armadale and was cut to operate between Falkirk and Avonbridge with the exception of tendered journeys in late 2019.

It’s not really continuity though if both loops have been done at some point. Lothian will likely have opted for the anti-clockwise loop as it’s theoretically safer not to turn against the traffic as they’ll be turning left at most junctions.

 

[ScotRail158725]

Currently sweltering on a 38, and wondering why, across the whole fleet, the windows are barely larger than the opening to a postbox… I’m sure somebody here knows why?

Poor designs, on the contrast the Ex London Geminis have larger opening windows and they’re on every window bar the rearmost ones. Better ventilation than the rest of the fleet anyway

 

[VioletEclipse]

I'm guessing current design was reached with cost / safety and ease of maintenance in mind. Don't feel it's evolved much in the last 40+ years really? Obviously not a Lothian specific issue.

Worth a rethink in modern times tho? Whether you prescribe to global warming or not, things aren't cooling down any. I'd prefer AC to become defacto standard on electrics and phased in that way. Not looking like that will happen though, it's still uncommon (cost I assume is the main driver there)

having the entire window open like a house or car window would likely cause more issues than it solves. while AC would be good, I much prefer 1-10 to 12-50 on hot days, as opening windows wi a breeze can often be much nicer than the, sometimes unreliable, AC in 12-50 which can make them quite uncomfortably hot and stuffy.

 

[Metal Mickey]

It’s not really continuity though if both loops have been done at some point. Lothian will likely have opted for the anti-clockwise loop as it’s theoretically safer not to turn against the traffic as they’ll be turning left at most junctions.

Sorry, I don’t agree. I think it’s because the Network designer doesn’t know the area well enough and hasn’t done proper research into what worked previously.

 

[FlybeDash8Q400]

Sorry, I don’t agree. I think it’s because the Network designer doesn’t know the area well enough and hasn’t done proper research into what worked previously.

Forgive me, but the whole point of a loop is exactly that. It’s a loop? It’s designed to serve everywhere usually where no suitable turning point exists or if time constraints can be issue. Depends on specifics. Lothian 100% have opted for the anti-clockwise loop based on turns and the consistency below demonstrates this.

There are countless examples of anti clockwise loops:

3 and 30 in Clovenstone
10 in Bonaly - though this is more of a space issue.
14 in Muirhouse
20 in The Calders
23 in Trinity
25 in Restalrig - again a space issue.
44 in Balerno
47 in Ladywood

Lothian usually almost always opt for anti-clockwise loops. Only if a one way system dictates the route might this be broken or if there are issues with parking, such as the 72 in Kirkliston. In this case it’s signal controlled on the right turns anyway. So in short, no it’s probably nothing to do with local knowledge. It’s more than likely a safety decision.

The 3 in Mayfield stands out as an odd one out and I suspect this is to do with the overflow and its position. There will be a small number of exceptions to this, but in each case safety reasons will have been assessed and any justifications will need to be demonstrated. The 73 in Blackburn is a rare example of this.

 

[Auld reekie]

Forgive me, but the whole point of a loop is exactly that. It’s a loop? It’s designed to serve everywhere usually where no suitable turning point exists or if time constraints can be issue. Depends on specifics. Lothian 100% have opted for the anti-clockwise loop based on turns and the consistency below demonstrates this.

There are countless examples of anti clockwise loops:

3 and 30 in Clovenstone
10 in Bonaly - though this is more of a space issue.
14 in Muirhouse
20 in The Calders
23 in Trinity
25 in Restalrig - again a space issue.
44 in Balerno
47 in Ladywood

Lothian usually almost always opt for anti-clockwise loops. Only if a one way system dictates the route might this be broken or if there are issues with parking, such as the 72 in Kirkliston. In this case it’s signal controlled on the right turns anyway. So in short, no it’s probably nothing to do with local knowledge. It’s more than likely a safety decision.

The 3 in Mayfield stands out as an odd one out and I suspect this is to do with the overflow and its position. There will be a small number of exceptions to this, but in each case safety reasons will have been assessed and any justifications will need to be demonstrated. The 73 in Blackburn is a rare example of this.

I don’t see any reason why the 44 loop was cancelled.
Could do with it returning.

 

[Graeme Duncan]

No mention of services 20,46 and 48 in the service changes I assume there will be no changes on those particular routes.

 

[overthewater]

Sorry, I don’t agree. I think it’s because the Network designer doesn’t know the area well enough and hasn’t done proper research into what worked previously.

Forgive me, but the whole point of a loop is exactly that. It’s a loop? It’s designed to serve everywhere usually where no suitable turning point exists or if time constraints can be issue. Depends on specifics. Lothian 100% have opted for the anti-clockwise loop based on turns and the consistency below demonstrates this.

It was always Anti clockwise before it went to Blackridge, the 29 AKA 9 AKA 77 went that way, during the 2000s route 5/6 and 8A all went Anit-clockwise

 

[TheEastCoaster]

No mention of services 20,46 and 48 in the service changes I assume there will be no changes on those particular routes.

doubt it, which is weird because they listed services that have no change but ommited these ones, i doubt the 20 would of been changed as it is just such a minor route.

 

[mb88]

I’m a bit confused by the 74 as it states it will now terminate at Eastfield Road in Fauldhouse yet the timetable still states Fauldhouse, Post Office as the terminus and starting point.

 

[Bus9120UK]

I’m a bit confused by the 74 as it states it will now terminate at Eastfield Road in Fauldhouse yet the timetable still states Fauldhouse, Post Office as the terminus and starting point.

I think the timetable is wrong. The change will be solving the issue of two buses being at the terminus at the same time with the new 72 frequency.

 

[NorthEastern]

Forgive me, but the whole point of a loop is exactly that. It’s a loop? It’s designed to serve everywhere usually where no suitable turning point exists or if time constraints can be issue. Depends on specifics. Lothian 100% have opted for the anti-clockwise loop based on turns and the consistency below demonstrates this.

There are countless examples of anti clockwise loops:

3 and 30 in Clovenstone
10 in Bonaly - though this is more of a space issue.
14 in Muirhouse
20 in The Calders
23 in Trinity
25 in Restalrig - again a space issue.
44 in Balerno
47 in Ladywood

Lothian usually almost always opt for anti-clockwise loops. Only if a one way system dictates the route might this be broken or if there are issues with parking, such as the 72 in Kirkliston. In this case it’s signal controlled on the right turns anyway. So in short, no it’s probably nothing to do with local knowledge. It’s more than likely a safety decision.

The 3 in Mayfield stands out as an odd one out and I suspect this is to do with the overflow and its position. There will be a small number of exceptions to this, but in each case safety reasons will have been assessed and any justifications will need to be demonstrated. The 73 in Blackburn is a rare example of this.

An anti clockwise loop is also slightly shorter distance