BBC Article: Tube fare prosecutions highest since 2019

[Falcon1200]

It seems clear that more bouncer-like staff whose specific job it is to physically apprehend offenders are needed. We wouldn't contemplate having nightclubs without such staff,

Nightclubs are each in themselves a single location; TfL has hundreds of stations! Where do you place the bouncers?

The last time I saw barrier-push-throughers was at Watford Metropolitan Line; 2 young lads pushed through and were away before anyone could even react.

 

[jon81uk]

Nightclubs are each in themselves a single location; TfL has hundreds of stations! Where do you place the bouncers?

TfL revenue protection current approach is to review the data and then position themselves at certain stations at certain times of day to monitor the barriers and react as needed. Sometimes might be one or two revenue protection officers in plain clothes you won't notice unless they approach, other times might be 4-5 as a wall of people after the barriers, sometimes with BTP backup. Generally I think this might be more effective than a lone person at all hours.

 

[Watershed]

I saw two people push through the barriers at a major Tube/NR interchange station the other day, just as that particular entrance was closing for the night - so the metal 'curtain' at the entrance was 80% closed. There were three police officers standing right next to the barriers. They did absolutely nothing and continued chatting amongst themselves.

What is the point in them standing around if they ignore blatant fare evasion? A bit of quick thinking would have seen the station staff pull the 'curtain' shut to trap the miscreants with the police there to pick them up.

As ever, it is the easy, compliant targets who get targeted whilst those who are prepared to push the rules get away with it. People wouldn't dare pull such stunts in countries abroad where burly security guards with batons staff the gatelines.

 

[thomalex]

I saw two people push through the barriers at a major Tube/NR interchange station the other day, just as that particular entrance was closing for the night - so the metal 'curtain' at the entrance was 80% closed. There were three police officers standing right next to the barriers. They did absolutely nothing and continued chatting amongst themselves.

What is the point in them standing around if they ignore blatant fare evasion? A bit of quick thinking would have seen the station staff pull the 'curtain' shut to trap the miscreants with the police there to pick them up.

As ever, it is the easy, compliant targets who get targeted whilst those who are prepared to push the rules get away with it. People wouldn't dare pull such stunts in countries abroad where burly security guards with batons staff the gatelines.

Exactly that. You need to have a roaming team of well paid, heavy security staff and police to target different stations and that would stamp a lot of it out. Yes it had a cost but that needs to be weighed up against what's being lost in fare evasion and other general criminal behaviour on the network.

 

[announcements]

Its so uncommon, that some some people's reactions to onboard inspection is that they must be scammers, because tfl never officially checks tickets onboard. Ive seen people asking questions on reddit and instagram where they think it was a scam because they have never seen an inspector onboard before

This happened to me once. I was asleep on the Piccadilly line in the Russell Square area and I was woken up by a plain clothed inspector. My gut reaction was to shoo away, assuming they were a beggar! The only other time I'd been inspected onboard a train was a uniformed inspector on the Met line c. 2010.

 

[Pegpilot]

The trouble with policing fare evasion is identifying the sweet spot on the curve. If you spent nothing on policing, then fare evasion would be off the scale bad. Spend infinity on policing then the returns can never justify the money spent. So somewhere in between lies the ideal position. Paraphrasing from a European metro presentation at a UITP meeting in the 1990s that I coordinated on LUL's behalf, but I remember it well. What's changed in the intervening 30 years is the power of IT in tracking down the serial offenders.

 

[michael8]

Nightclubs are each in themselves a single location; TfL has hundreds of stations! Where do you place the bouncers?

The last time I saw barrier-push-throughers was at Watford Metropolitan Line; 2 young lads pushed through and were away before anyone could even react.

If you go to Ilford Elizabeth line station you will see a plenteousness of it !

 

[PeterC]

Just in response to some comments above, I have long been of the opinion undercover police revenue operations are a wonderful gateway to tackling other forms of crime. The initial fare evasion offence gives officers the opportunity to detain and search the culprit. I cannot tell you have many times this has led to the discovery of large quantities of drugs, zombie knives, arrest warrants or immigration issues. I have seen all of the above first hand on many occasions.

I have seen full scale combined blockades at both Walthamstow and Romford. If you are alert you can usually spot a couple of hefty guys inside the station waiting for observant yobs who try to double back.

A friend did tell my that she saw one character, oblivious to his surroundings, vault the barrier literally into the arms of 2 police officers.

With regard to on train inspections on LUL, I experienced one in 20 years of commuting on the Met Line.

 

[sigwinch28]

If you go to Ilford Elizabeth line station you will see a plenteousness of it !

Apropos of nothing, how much “intelligence-led” fare inspection do you think you see at the same station?

I usually spy TfL staff in their blue vests or in plain clothes around Kings Cross or TCR, but rarely further out around zone 4. Sometimes it seems to me like it would be shooting fish in a barrel to always have a pair stood at Stratford, which is the closest station to their head office.

 

[AlterEgo]

Apropos of nothing, how much “intelligence-led” fare inspection do you think you see at the same station?

I usually spy TfL staff in their blue vests or in plain clothes around Kings Cross or TCR, but rarely further out around zone 4. Sometimes it seems to me like it would be shooting fish in a barrel to always have a pair stood at Stratford, which is the closest station to their head office.

Most of the intelligence led stops are made by plain clothes inspectors.

 

[Mgameing123]

Pushing through a TfL or railway barrier should be an offence.
The enforcement team should be given power of arrest (if they don't already have it).
Handcuff the offender, call the police to inform them to attend, have the police take them into custody and immediate processing at the magistrates court.

No thank you. Only people who should be allowed to arrest is the Police.

 

[jon0844]

Just in response to some comments above, I have long been of the opinion undercover police revenue operations are a wonderful gateway to tackling other forms of crime. The initial fare evasion offence gives officers the opportunity to detain and search the culprit. I cannot tell you have many times this has led to the discovery of large quantities of drugs, zombie knives, arrest warrants or immigration issues. I have seen all of the above first hand on many occasions.

I've said this for some twenty years or so on this forum, regarding stings at stations. They always catch far more than fare evasion - but they are considered expensive and difficult to set up. Some even say they're hard to justify as people think they're taking resources away from other policing measures.

I've always said - you have the criminals literally coming straight to you. It's worth not just BTP, but local police, home office and more to be present and mix the operations up so people never know if and when there will be one. That can help bring anti-social behaviour down too.

Now TfL does do more stings than most, but I am not sure they like the multi-agency operations. The police will likely be hesitant to target certain areas for fear of being accused of targeting certain people, for example.

It is also no longer something only the railway should be funding, but - again - there are going to be people upset that the police might be allowed to roam the public transport network looking for criminals and using them pushing through a gate as justification to start questioning or searching them. I think, personally, that this is valid justification as you can't be accused of profiling people to search - you have grounds based on what you've seen (and recorded on Body Worn Video).

 

[Mawkie]

I've said this for some twenty years or so on this forum, regarding stings at stations. They always catch far more than fare evasion - but they are considered expensive and difficult to set up. Some even say they're hard to justify as people think they're taking resources away from other policing measures.

I've always said - you have the criminals literally coming straight to you. It's worth not just BTP, but local police, home office and more to be present and mix the operations up so people never know if and when there will be one. That can help bring anti-social behaviour down too.

Now TfL does do more stings than most, but I am not sure they like the multi-agency operations. The police will likely be hesitant to target certain areas for fear of being accused of targeting certain people, for example.

It is also no longer something only the railway should be funding, but - again - there are going to be people upset that the police might be allowed to roam the public transport network looking for criminals and using them pushing through a gate as justification to start questioning or searching them. I think, personally, that this is valid justification as you can't be accused of profiling people to search - you have grounds based on what you've seen (and recorded on Body Worn Video).

This is absolutely true according to my own anecdotal evidence.

I've worked in stations where the BTP/Met have set up a knife arch and sniffer dogs, and they don't even need to profile people particularly, or wait for the ones who don't have a ticket. It's like shooting fish in a barrel.

Especially easy are the ones who go to exit and see the large police presence and turn around before they get to the gates and try to go back to a train - that's when the plain clothes coppers (who are waiting for exactly that scenario) nab them. Perfection.

Criminals are quite dim, and the police know - catching them for the little things often leads to the bigger things.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Now TfL does do more stings than most, but I am not sure they like the multi-agency operations.

Multi-agency operations are a pain in the backside to manage administratively, which is always the problem with these things. Either nobody wants to be in charge or everybody wants to be in charge.

I don’t think letting the Border Force anywhere near a fare evasion operation would be a good idea.

 

[jon0844]

I don’t think letting the Border Force anywhere near a fare evasion operation would be a good idea.

Immigration checks have been carried out in stings at Finsbury Park that, I assume, also had to work with both TfL and GTR.

I agree it must be a logistical nightmare to set up, but I still say it is worth it and such issues can be fixed if a set procedure is set up on how to run such operations rather than it appearing rather ad hoc today.

 

[pitdiver]

Some people have mentioned the lack of on train ticket inspections nowadays compared with years ago. I agree they used to be quite common and thorough. I was asked to show my ticket whilst travelling between Covent Garden and Acton on the way to the LTM Depot. Okay fair enough but I was in LTM uniform. It clearly stated LONDON TRANSPORT MUSEUM. thorough indeed.

 

[Blaine]

That's a considerable number of people coming to TfL's attention.

I'm not sure it is - 18k people caught a year on the underground is only 10x the number of people caught by SWR at Ascot across the 5 days of Royal Ascot.

I had to wait for a friend at a gateline earlier this summer for half an hour and was shocked at the number of people just shimmying through the wide gates. There's no way that CSAs are submitting details each time this happens, it would take up all of their time.

I'm not sure where the right balance is between over-policing and a free-for-all, but a gut feel is that more inspectors at gatelines would be revenue positive - but perhaps they need to be a bit smarter than they currently are, so rather than congregating around the barriers, have someone in plain clothes watching people coming in to the station and having the squad stopping suspects at the bottom of the escalators.

An FOI request on wide barrier push-throughs would be interesting if the data really is captured, or a job for AI CCTV analysis if not. The fact that TfL are catching only 50 fare evaders a day on the underground suggests the odds of being caught is astonishingly low.

 

[jon0844]

The problem is that bean counters would see the extra staff as a cost once they stop people pushing through. In their minds, the problem has gone away so you don't need staff...

 

[Peter Mugridge]

The problem is that bean counters would see the extra staff as a cost once they stop people pushing through. In their minds, the problem has gone away so you don't need staff...

That could be countered by saying the stopping people pushing through results in a lot more people being prosecuted for fare dodging ( and a lot more buying more tickets ) therefore rather than being an extra cost they are an extra source of income...?

 

[jon0844]

That could be countered by saying the stopping people pushing through results in a lot more people being prosecuted for fare dodging ( and a lot more buying more tickets ) therefore rather than being an extra cost they are an extra source of income...?

Yes but eventually they'll sort the issue and so someone will want rid of them.

 

[jon81uk]

Yes but eventually they'll sort the issue and so someone will want rid of them.

But you need the staff to keep prosecuting people to keep it stopped. You won't "sort the issue" as there will always be more people willing to fare evade.

 

[43066]

Some people have mentioned the lack of on train ticket inspections nowadays compared with years ago. I agree they used to be quite common and thorough. I was asked to show my ticket whilst travelling between Covent Garden and Acton on the way to the LTM Depot. Okay fair enough but I was in LTM uniform. It clearly stated LONDON TRANSPORT MUSEUM. thorough indeed.

Does LTM employment entitle you to free travel? As TOC staff I fully expect to be asked to show evidence of entitlement to travel - perhaps more so than regular passengers.

 

[jon0844]

But you need the staff to keep prosecuting people to keep it stopped. You won't "sort the issue" as there will always be more people willing to fare evade.

My point was that the staff that achieve this will be measured on how many penalties or prosecutions they do, and when it deters people they'll seek to get rid of staff.

I know full well you need to keep them as even doing nothing isn't doing nothing, but good luck convincing the powers that be that it's enough to just have visual deterrents - which hopefully they'll eventually be.

 

[barringtoncem]

What about unmanned stations like Upton Park where my magstripe ticket would not work the barriers and the help point was not working i was certainly not going to by another ticket just for the purpose of getting through the barriers

 

[announcements]

That's why unmanned stations oughtn't have gates!

 

[pitdiver]

Does LTM employment entitle you to free travel? As TOC staff I fully expect to be asked to show evidence of entitlement to travel - perhaps more so than regular passengers.

It did when I worked there. I took VS in 2005. I could have had a retired staff oyster that would have given me free travel in London. But I don't live in London so I chose a PTAC and a Retired Priv Oyster for myself and my wife. I was just emphasising the thoroughness that existed back

 

[Falcon1200]

That's why unmanned stations oughtn't have gates!

Presumably Upton Park is normally staffed but was not at this time on this occasion, for some reason.

 

[barringtoncem]

I would assume so but there were definitely no staff there at the time i was there and the help point was not working either would information be on the TFL website if stations are manned or unmanned ?

 

[Mawkie]

I would assume so but there were definitely no staff there at the time i was there and the help point was not working either would information be on the TFL website if stations are manned or unmanned ?

If the station was unmanned the barriers should have been left powered up, but open.

I suspect it was more likely the gates were being monitored remotely (via CCTV inside the supervisor's office) but perhaps they didn't notice you for the few minutes you were there.