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Idea: CrossCountry overhaul

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NCT

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But I don't agree here. There are various cross country routes where battery bimodes are going to be the way forward, saving on expensive new electrification.

Electro-diesels and battery electrics are obviously better than diesels, but they are inferior to pure electrics where routes are already wired.

What I'm saying is if half your routes are electrified and half are not, one should plan services to be 100% under wires where possible, rather than having to buy a larger than necessary fleet of complex traction.

Running Manchester - Northampton not only increases 100% electric operation but also keeps New Street operations tidy - no more crossing the Stour and Gloucester lines or disruptive reversal movements.
 
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Topological

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I think that I have it:

Identify 4 paths on Birmingham to each of Derby, Stafford, Cheltenham and Oxford
Identify 2 paths on Birmingham to each of Leicester and Shrewsbury

Now identify as many destinations as possible and allocate them to one of the locations on the list:

Stafford can include Liverpool, Manchester, Glasgow via Bolton, Blackpool/Barrow-in-Furness
Cheltenham can include Swansea, Penzance, Plymouth and Swindon
Oxford can include Brighton, Bournemouth, Portsmouth and Margate/Salisbury
Derby can include Edinburgh via Leeds, Newcastle via Leeds, Grimsby/Hull/Middlesbrough/Scarborough, Nottingham
Leicester can include Cambridge and Stansted Airport
Shrewsbury would be Shrewsbury itself and Chester

Now just go through all the combinations each day so that the paths get filled and everywhere can go to everywhere

(places with / have to share a path so will not have a train every hour)
 

BlueLeanie

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There are lots of ways to "fix" Cross Country

My way to do so would be to create a sub-brand of GBR, call it "Inter-City" and combine both Transpennine Express and Cross Country under that brand.

Order 80 7-Car 802s to replace the heritage Voyager fleet.

Then start to refine the timetables, look for opportunities to make little changes, combinations and extensions. Extend some Edinburgh services to Perth or Dundee.

Time for the 170s to go too, Get some 5-car 110mph hybrids in.
 

Energy

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But not Liverpool, since about 2007. Is there a rule that every new proposal to wreck the existing XC network has to reintroduce Liverpool, (and sometimes Brighton)?
I'm not really sure why. I'm currently a student in Liverpool, and the LNWR service is generally well regarded while XC is an unreliable running joke even amongst non-railway enthusiasts.

Tangent, there is an @i_hate_crosscountry account in Instagram which gets plenty of likes from non-railway folk. XC's problems really are a well known joke but the overcrowding is far, far more frequently mentioned as a problem than the routes.
Service 1: Liverpool Lime Street - Birmingham New Street - Cambridge
Liverpool Lime Street
- Liverpool South Parkway - Runcorn - Crewe - Stafford - Wolverhampton - Smethwick Galton Bridge - Birmingham New Street - Birmingham International - Coventry - Rugby - Rugby Parkway - Northampton - Bedford - Tempsford - Cambridge
Birmingham New St thru services tend to have poor performance. Notably, the London Euston - Birmingham New St - Liverpool Lime St LNWR service was notoriously unreliable.

Thru services make sense where a considerable number of passengers are staying on. Looking at the ORR flow statistics for Liverpool Lime St, none of the stations from Birmingham Intl onwards make the top 100.

Also if you added more common Nuneaton (connecting with the WMR Nuneaton - Coventry service) and Rugby calls you'd get most of this connectivity. Once EWR opens (required for this service) you could do any the WCML stations to Cambridge with a single change at Milton Keynes.
IMHO, Cross Country is a perfect example of "You wouldn't start from here..."

Rather than tweak existing routes, start with a blank sheet of paper, and list the aims and objectives, and then work out the routes - then we can work out how feasible they are...
I'd argue the post XC service pattern works well but could do with fixing connection timings, particularly for South West - North West.

XC needs a reliable, frequent, good capacity core network with good connections to ongoing services. Trying to service everywhere from everywhere ends up with unreliable services.
Order 80 7-Car 802s to replace the heritage Voyager fleet.
.... 80?? XC would be fine with 50-60.
 

swt_passenger

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Time for the 170s to go too, Get some 5-car 110mph hybrids in.
Most people over the years here have suggested and usually agreed that the 170 operated former Central Trains routes should never have been made part of XC network at all.
 

MarkyT

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Electro-diesels and battery electrics are obviously better than diesels, but they are inferior to pure electrics where routes are already wired.

What I'm saying is if half your routes are electrified and half are not, one should plan services to be 100% under wires where possible, rather than having to buy a larger than necessary fleet of complex traction.
That complexity doesn't apply to batteries. In future fleets, I expect they will be essentially zero-maintenance and typically weigh very much less than a moderately sized diesel engine and fuel tank slung under every car. I'm all for filling in more electrification gaps where expedient, but I don't think we should insist on an entire route being wired for a through service to run, particularly at extremities, just so we can buy some electric-only trains. That's an artificial constraint on the design of networks to meet markets, and a reduction in fleet flexibility. There'll likely be a growing number of all-electric suburban networks around large cities going so far out on many lines that don't themselves need batteries to work. Cross Country and other longer-distance regional routes can use these 'hubs' for immediate power and charging.

I greatly support the idea that all future electric trains should have moderately sized battery packs anyway, capable of at least getting them to the next station or electrical section, even if they normally run entirely under wires. That would give flexibility to engineer in some deliberate gaps in future schemes along particularly difficult sections such as exposed sea walls or through very tight structures, like the Cardiff Valley Lines, and also allow moderate off-wire extensions of long-distance trains to other destinations nearby without wiring, maybe market testing before extending knitting any further. Most importantly, though, batteries create resilience against local power infrastructure failures and deliberate isolations for maintenance or emergency events. Even if trains have to stop briefly or slow down for associated safety reasons, onboard power means traffic can continue to move through the outage.
 

swt_passenger

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How many speculative CrossCountry threads so far have reached their thirtieth post without mentioning Portsmouth?
In my experience of similar threads, (and there’s dozens), a return to Portsmouth has hardly ever been seriously mentioned.
 

brad465

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Order 80 7-Car 802s to replace the heritage Voyager fleet.
Do they need to be 7-car? If you stick to 5-car 802s that's an off the shelf product, so shouldn't be too difficult to introduce relatively speaking. Plus, 5-car 802s have a staggering 80-odd seats extra per unit than 5-car Voyagers, so straight away replacing 4 and 5-car units with these is an extra 80-100 seats, while 10-car formations being possible is an even more significant boost in capacity compared to 8/9/10-car Voyager formations, something having 7-car units would not support.
 

BerkshireRails

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Lets face it, the current CrossCountry network is no longer fit for purpose and needs a major overhual! This is the third incarnation of my CrossCountry plan as certain things have changed in the real world since my last post in 2022 and to add in more explination than before.

I propose an hourly service on each of the 10 below routes, which provides a half hourly service to the majority of the network, some of the routes might first come across as radical but I believe that is what is needed to finaly fix the network and make it useable, explinations are given. I propose a minimum of new 7 car bimode 125mph capable rolling stock as a minimum.

Also I am aware of other TOC's services I have changed but there are plans to fits those in.

Service 3: Manchester Piccadilly - Birmingham New Street - Gatwick Airport
Manchester Piccadilly
- Stockport - Macclesfield - Stoke-on-Trent - Stafford - Wolverhampton - Sandwell & Dudley - Birmingham New Street - Birmingham International - Coventry - Leamington Spa - Banbury - Oxford - Didcot Parkway - Reading - Wokingham - Farnborough - Guildford - Dorking - Gatwick Airport

Birmingham New Street - Gatwick Airport

• Replacing the Manchester Piccadilly to Reading section of the Manchester Piccadilly to Bournemouth service.
• Replacing the former Virgin CrossCountry service to Gatwick Airport and mirroring part of the proposed Grand Central route from Reading to Gatwick Airport.
• Capacity improvements would have to be made on the North Downs line to accomadate the additional services.

Service 10: Lincoln - Birmingham New Street - Gatwick Airport
Lincoln
- Newark Castle - Nottingham - Castle Donington - Burton-on-Trent - Tamworth - Birmingham New Street - Birmingham International - Coventry - Leamington Spa - Banbury - Oxford - Didcot Parkway - Reading - Wokingham - Farnborough - Guildford - Dorking - Gatwick Airport

Birmingham New Street - Gatwick Airport
• Reintroducing a secondly hourly service between Birmingham New Street and Reading.
• Replacing the former Virgin CrossCountry service to Gatwick Airport and mirroring part of the proposed Grand Central route from Reading to Gatwick Airport.
• Capacity improvements would have to be made on the North Downs line to accomadate the additional services.
So you're proposing running fast between Dorking & Gatwick Airport. Good luck with that, considering you currently have to reverse at Redhill. Also, will this be compatible with the proposed 3tph local service on the Downs?

What proposed upgrades are you suggesting for the North Downs Line?

Why 7 cars and not 5 or 9 car units? 5 cars would be more flexible than 7 cars, as you can strengthen a service to have a pair of 5 cars, but you can't do that with the 7 cars.
 

DarloRich

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Surely the best way to "fix" XC is to, you know, order lots of new and longer trains to help run the, erm, existing services in a way that makes people actually keen to travel on them........................
 

YorkshireBear

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Surely the best way to "fix" XC is to, you know, order lots of new and longer trains to help run the, erm, existing services in a way that makes people actually keen to travel on them..................
100%. I also don't believe XC is 'not fit for purpose', it has some very specific challenges with stock and staffing, but I don't think the route network or the timetable are in need of anything major. Especially considering the effort of doing anything like this with the proposal effectively requiring a change to every TOCs timetable across the entire country.

The way to fix XC is NOT to make it infinitely more complex and add loads of destinations. It is to take the existing timetable, which actually isn't that bad and serves the vast majority of key markets and give them enough staff and stock to run it properly. I would include in that, reinstatement of pre COVID services that have yet to return.
 

DarloRich

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100%. I also don't believe XC is 'not fit for purpose', it has some very specific challenges with stock and staffing, but I don't think the route network or the timetable are in need of anything major. Especially considering the effort of doing anything like this with the proposal effectively requiring a change to every TOCs timetable across the entire country.
If anything my view is they should contract more to focus on the core SW/NE route but agree generally
 

YorkshireBear

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Do they need to be 7-car? If you stick to 5-car 802s that's an off the shelf product, so shouldn't be too difficult to introduce relatively speaking. Plus, 5-car 802s have a staggering 80-odd seats extra per unit than 5-car Voyagers, so straight away replacing 4 and 5-car units with these is an extra 80-100 seats, while 10-car formations being possible is an even more significant boost in capacity compared to 8/9/10-car Voyager formations, something having 7-car units would not support.
The class 807 is 7 cars. So it has been produced. From what I understand the AT300 series can come in odd numbers. So, 5,7, 9 all within the standard off the shelf range.

That would give them similar capacity to a 9 car 22X set but with around 40m less length. We know XC has supressed demand based on how full they get while being utterly terrible.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

If anything my view is they should contract more to focus on the core SW/NE route but agree generally
I agree in terms of removing the 170 routes from XC. But I still think NW-SW, NW-South, NE-South all have a market worth serving. South being used to differentiate Oxford/Reading corridor with SW, but I certainly could be convinced otherwise, especially as Manchester Birmingham could be easily served with high capacity EMUs....
 

BerkshireRails

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The class 807 is 7 cars. So it has been produced. From what I understand the AT300 series can come in odd numbers. So, 5,7, 9 all within the standard off the shelf range.

That would give them similar capacity to a 9 car 22X set but with around 40m less length. We know XC has supressed demand based on how full they get while being utterly terrible.
The AT300s can also be formed from an even number of coaches as shown by the 395s. 20250228_141425.jpg
 

BerkshireRails

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The way to fix XC is NOT to make it infinitely more complex and add loads of destinations. It is to take the existing timetable, which actually isn't that bad and serves the vast majority of key markets and give them enough staff and stock to run it properly. I would include in that, reinstatement of pre COVID services that have yet to return.
I believe the Norwich to Liverpool service should be transferred to XC to increase XC diversionary capacity with regular workings, so more services can be diverted via parts of the Norwich to Liverpool route.
I might instead be referring specifically to the 80X series then. But I'm sure I read that somewhere.
I am sure I have seen an even number of the fixed unit lengths for the AT300s 80X/Intercity Express Programme sets, which can have 5-12 coaches.
 

DarloRich

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South being used to differentiate Oxford/Reading corridor with SW, but I certainly could be convinced otherwise, especially as Manchester Birmingham could be easily served with high capacity EMUs....
Agreed - i should have been clearer in using my terminology. Perhaps I should have said core NE > Brum >S/SW services ;)
 

Topological

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I might instead be referring specifically to the 80X series then. But I'm sure I read that somewhere.
The odd length only for 80x is often repeated (and 810). It is something to do with the balance of diesel generators (I think). Do the 395s have diesel generators?

CrossCountry would benefit greatly from 80x (since that is the platform everywhere else is standardising to), but I lean towards the 5-car model, with each voyager in the present fleet replaced by a 5-car 1-for-1.
 

The exile

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In the context of XC, this would mean having the services from different legs (e.g. ex-Reading and ex-Bristol) arrive within minutes of each other at opposite sides of the same island platform, and depart within minutes of each other towards their respective destinations (e.g. Manchester and Newcastle). This way, there is a very limited penalty for passengers wanting to make the journey that requires changing trains.
That was exactly the aim of the recast of “cross country” services in the early 1970s -easy interchange in the modern surroundings of Birmingham New Street. Looked fine on paper - but look where it got us!
Ultimately the problem for XC is having to reconcile being the prime provider of medium distance non London flows (Birmingham - Bristol / Sheffield for example) with its other market - the long-distance “interchange avoider”.
 

BerkshireRails

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The odd length only for 80x is often repeated (and 810). It is something to do with the balance of diesel generators (I think). Do the 395s have diesel generators?
The 395s don't have diesel engines. It is a requirement from the DfT to have both even and odd formations avaliable from IEP/80X family. Most important quote.Screenshot_20250812_130425_Chrome.jpgScreenshot_20250812_130454_Chrome.jpg
 

YorksLad12

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I think Harrogate is doing a lot of work in those proposals. Are you funding a new platform or two or additional sidings as well? It only has the two platforms at the moment, regular through services between Leeds and Knaresborough, plus the LNER service every two hours.
 

BerkshireRails

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I think Harrogate is doing a lot of work in those proposals. Are you funding a new platform or two or additional sidings as well? It only has the two platforms at the moment, regular through services between Leeds and Knaresborough, plus the LNER service every two hours.
It might be possible to add a platform to the through line.
 

Topological

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The 395s don't have diesel engines. It is a requirement from the DfT to have both even and odd formations avaliable from IEP/80X family. Most important quote.View attachment 186172View attachment 186171
Thanks for those.

So there was an 8-car but no TOC decided to have an 8-car?

It remains open that the restriction to odd numbers is diesel generator based. Hopefully someone who knows the truth will respond.

I still think that 5-car works best for CrossCountry.
 

BerkshireRails

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Thanks for those.

So there was an 8-car but no TOC decided to have an 8-car?

It remains open that the restriction to odd numbers is diesel generator based. Hopefully someone who knows the truth will respond.

I still think that 5-car works best for CrossCountry.
Yeah, I think a fleet of 140 5-car units would be great, then you can improve frequency and length of trains on the Core Network, from Exeter to Newcastle and Reading to Manchester.
 

MarkyT

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Thanks for those.

So there was an 8-car but no TOC decided to have an 8-car?

It remains open that the restriction to odd numbers is diesel generator based. Hopefully someone who knows the truth will respond.

I still think that 5-car works best for CrossCountry.
There'll be a desire to have similar power to weight ratios for different length units on diesel, so coupled pairs of 5-car will perform similarly to a 9-car. 5-car units have 3 motor cars, each with a diesel Generator Unit, while 9-car have 5 motor cars with GUs. The 5-cars are slightly more powerful per tonne than the 9-cars.

I agree 5-car or equivalent units would be best for maximum flexibility, though there are short platforms in the west country that have trouble with 2x5, including Paignton, which just fits a 9-car 80x between the signals today but won't take a 10-car. Overlong trains can't reverse in the platform, so need to shunt to Goodrington sidings after unloading and back for loading, and may block the level crossings at either end for an extended period.

A large fleet renewal like this really should consider providing level boarding at traditional 3ft UK platforms. Hitachi has yet to demonstrate that capability.
 
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BerkshireRails

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A large fleet renewal like this really should consider providing level boarding at traditional 3ft UK platforms. Hitachi has yet to demonstrate that capability.
Although that would be good considering how many issues the 810s have had, maybe the AT300s aren't suitable for level boarding with 915mm, or maybe the issue is with the platform height standard.
I agree 5-car or equivalent units would be best for maximum flexibility, though there are short platforms in the west country that have trouble with 2x5, including Paignton, which just fits a 9-car 80x between the signals today but won't take a 10-car. Overlong trains can't reverse in the platform, so need to shunt to Goodrington sidings after unloading and back for loading, and may block the level crossings at either end for an extended period.
You could have the 80Xs split at Newton Abbot with 5 cars running to Paignton and 5 cars to Plymouth, with some running onto Penzance, which would also solve the issue with Saltash and only being able to take 2 or 3 cars when the signal is at danger. I would also consider if Paignton should gain another crossover so trains can depart Paignton on the Down and then cross to the Up to head onto Torquay.
 

Trainbike46

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Although that would be good considering how many issues the 810s have had, maybe the AT300s aren't suitable for level boarding with 915mm, or maybe the issue is with the platform height standard.
If Hitachi is unable or unwilling to build trains that include level-boarding at standard UK platform height, trains should be ordered from other manufacturers (e.g. CAF, Siemens, Stadler, or Alstom) who can and will provide this. It should be an absolute requirement for new train orders at this point. The Hitachi 8xx isn't the only option for bi-mode high-speed trains, for the EMR order that gave us the 810s both Alstom and Stadler bid, and CAF is building high-speed tri-mode trains for LNER at present, so alternatives are available. The Stadler product will have been level-boarding, and the CAF product offered level-boarding as an option.
 

Cormoran1274

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If the government were ever serious about a XC overhall then they would make it 'intercity' again. E.G Birmingham, Derby, Sheffield, Leeds, York, Newcastle, Edinburgh with stops like Tamworth, Chesterfield, Wakefield gone and replaced by regional services. One of the problems with XC is they call at too many stations for an intercity TOC which is why they suffer from so much in disruption and are constantly overcrowded
 

MarkyT

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Although that would be good considering how many issues the 810s have had, maybe the AT300s aren't suitable for level boarding with 915mm, or maybe the issue is with the platform height standard.
The vast majority of UK platforms attempt to conform approximately to the 3ft standard, mandated originally by 19th century regulations and fully permitted by EU TSIs during the UKs membership. While there are substandard examples, a ~3ft train floor will be a considerable improvement at those platforms than around 8 inches higher with conventional bodyshells, and raising those platforms to truly match ~1.2m train floors for LB will be far more difficult to achieve.

We do not need a new platform height standard. That'll just complicate LB for future regional trains, and end up forcing the 1.2m solution on every one of the thousands of rural halts around the nation. That's not practical or affordable I suggest. The bus industry managed universal low floor, and mainland continental railways continue to succeed in providing level boarding solutions at a range of heights, most rather lower than the UK standard. We have it easier than Germany for example which has a mixture of 550mm and 760mm platforms across the country both lower than our standard platforms. The UK must demand manufacturers adapt, just as they have on the continent, so we don't get locked into another 3 decades of no level boarding.

Level boarding provides advantages to operators well beyond the accessibility concerns and any associated legal requirement. With gap filler steps, the technique can speed up boarding, reduce the likelyhood of delay-inducing minor trip and fall incidents, and avoid difficulties lifting heavy luggage. Metro operators have understood this for decades. It could benefit a complex busy network like Cross Country significantly.
You could have the 80Xs split at Newton Abbot with 5 cars running to Paignton and 5 cars to Plymouth, with some running onto Penzance, which would also solve the issue with Saltash and only being able to take 2 or 3 cars when the signal is at danger. I would also consider if Paignton should gain another crossover so trains can depart Paignton on the Down and then cross to the Up to head onto Torquay.
I like the splitting idea as a method to gain more long-distance Paignton trains (I'm utterly biased of course, living in the bay!).

If the double to single points at the Goodrington end of the station were removed and platform #2 (aqua below) converted to a terminal bay, I think 260m+ standage would be available, with the buffers just clear of the signalling relay room. The track and platform could be straightened and extended to match the full train length so all doors could open. The remaining through platform #1 (yellow) could also be lengthened and straightened with its down signal moved closer to Sands Rd level crossing to also handle a full 10x26m train between signals.

In that scenario, the extra left-hand crossover at the north end is essential for full access to and from Goodrington sidings and to allow other trains to reverse directly in #1, while #2 is in use by a long express. LUMO has aspirations for running 5-car units to Paignton. A platform extension project, as described, could also allow them to run 10 car sets if desired on some services.

The aerial photo also shows why extending the double track further towards Goodrington to gain standage is not possible, becasue the alignment narrows at Sands Rd and the other track space over the crossing is taken by the Dartmouth Steam Railway single line. The signalling relay room is also a constraint, and there's a former crossing keeper's house the other side of the road, very close to the track that would also need removing to create room for an additional track. That sold for nearly half a million a few years ago (5 minutes walk to the beach!).
1755008686011.png
Track and signalling sketch:
1755010307723.png
 
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BerkshireRails

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The vast majority of UK platforms attempt to conform approximately to the 3ft standard, mandated originally by 19th century regulations and fully permitted by EU TSIs during the UKs membership. While there are substandard examples, a ~3ft train floor will be a considerable improvement at those platforms than around 8 inches higher with conventional bodyshells, and raising those platforms to truly match ~1.2m train floors for LB will be far more difficult to achieve.
I was just thinking if went for 1.2m platforms then the trains wouldn't require a decent amount of the unit taken up by equipment in the passenger area. That is one of my issues with the FLIRTs, which can make them feel cluttered. 1.2m seems to be the standard for major infrastructure projects in the UK for example HS2 & Elizabeth Line.
If Hitachi is unable or unwilling to build trains that include level-boarding at standard UK platform height, trains should be ordered from other manufacturers (e.g. CAF, Siemens, Stadler, or Alstom) who can and will provide this. It should be an absolute requirement for new train orders at this point. The Hitachi 8xx isn't the only option for bi-mode high-speed trains, for the EMR order that gave us the 810s both Alstom and Stadler bid, and CAF is building high-speed tri-mode trains for LNER at present, so alternatives are available. The Stadler product will have been level-boarding, and the CAF product offered level-boarding as an option.
CAF charge an unreasonable amount for level boarding according to Gareth Dennis, hence most TOCs don't bother. Even with TfLs new DLR trains they have a floor height of 1025mm.
I like the splitting idea as a method to gain more long-distance Paignton trains (I'm utterly biased of course, living in the bay!).

If the double to single points at the Goodrington end of the station were removed and platform #2 (aqua below) converted to a terminal bay, I think 260m+ standage would be available, with the buffers just clear of the signalling relay room. The track and platform could be straightened and extended to match the full train length so all doors could open. The remaining through platform #1 (yellow) could also be lengthened and straightened with its down signal moved closer to Sands Rd level crossing to also handle a full 10x26m train between signals.

In that scenario, the extra left-hand crossover at the north end is essential for full access to and from Goodrington sidings and to allow other trains to reverse directly in #1, while #2 is in use by a long express. LUMO has aspirations for running 5-car units to Paignton. A platform extension project, as described, could also allow them to run 10 car sets if desired on some services.

The aerial photo also shows why extending the double track further towards Goodrington to gain standage is not possible, becasue the alignment narrows at Sands Rd and the other track space over the crossing is taken by the Dartmouth Steam Railway single line. The signalling relay room is also a constraint, and there's a former crossing keeper's house the other side of the road, very close to the track that would also need removing to create room for an additional track. That sold for nearly half a million a few years ago (5 minutes walk to the beach!).
View attachment 186189
Track and signalling sketch:
View attachment 186190
Fair enough, that is another option, what software did you use for the Signal Diagram? If you remove the flats by Sand Level Crossing on the Dartmoor Railway side and realigned the track do you think it would be possible to triple track that section? Or does NR buy the Dartmoor line and then you extend the Paignton Local services to Kingswear and then terminate the long distance services at Goodrington Sands?
 
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