Expansion of LNER 70-min flex trial area ("Simpler Fares")

[RJ]

The flex is only offered if there are tickets in the advance quota, it is really nothing more than an add-on to the advance ticket. Which is also why I think this add-on will be removed as "too confusing".

There are some trains which LNER do not seem to offer many advance tickets for, the 'Flying Scotsman' being one of them.

Understood, but that last train from Newcastle to London is not a busy train. It shouldn't cost that much!

There is no simpler policy than only offering a £200 Anytime Single fare for travel after 9pm. Presumably this element of LNER's pricing policy has been (self?) hailed as a success?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Understood, but that last train from Newcastle to London is not a busy train. It shouldn't cost that much!

There is no simpler policy than only offering a £200 Anytime Single fare for travel after 9pm. Presumably this element of LNER's pricing policy has been (self?) hailed as a success?

Either that's just an error, or they realise that last minute purchases on the last train of the day are generally distress purchases and they can charge what they like and maximise income?

 

[PG]

Either that's just an error, or they realise that last minute purchases on the last train of the day are generally distress purchases and they can charge what they like and maximise income?

I'd go with the latter and I suppose it has the side benefit of preventing them being 'drunk tanks' on rails?
The irony of having to buy a ticket called "Anytime" when there is only one train remaining that day you can use it on!

 

[HamworthyGoods]

I'd go with the latter and I suppose it has the side benefit of preventing them being 'drunk tanks' on rails?
The irony of having to buy a ticket called "Anytime" when there is only one train remaining that day you can use it on!

No, it’s also valid on the service after the last LNER, the last Lumo service so not just one remaining service that day.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Understood, but that last train from Newcastle to London is not a busy train. It shouldn't cost that much!

There is no simpler policy than only offering a £200 Anytime Single fare for travel after 9pm. Presumably this element of LNER's pricing policy has been (self?) hailed as a success?

It (the 2115) is on as £66.30 tomorrow so I guess it was perhaps a quota muck-up or just not quite enough released. The 2135 Lumo is a bit cheaper at £52.90.

The 2245 departure with a 3 hour wait at York, arriving at 0700 (yuck!) does come up with just an Anytime, but that's quite possibly because it runs across two railway days which would confuse things, and I doubt many would choose that service unless really stuck. It's also an Anytime arrival time at Kings Cross so presumably wouldn't have offered a Super Off Peak before anyway?

 

[PG]

No, it’s also valid on the service after the last LNER, the last Lumo service so not just one remaining service that day.

Thanks for the correction

 

[yorkie]

Speaking with "normals" they will just head to Luton and Easy Jet. Granted they are more fixed the LNER. However Easy Jet are viewed as much cheaper, even with a taxi to the Airport. Do LNER really want to push their passengers to Easy Jet. From December 2025 I suspect I will be using Lumo much more.

(And other alternatives) Yes; they do, sadly. There is too much demand and too little capacity to cater for everyone if the fares were reasonable.

I had a successful use of the LNER 70 minute ticket a few weeks ago. I arrived at Heathrow at 7am and had a bag to pick up. I booked on the 1000 LNER from King's Cross to Newcastle and took the Heathrow Express in.

Now as it happened my flight was more or less on time and the bag did not take long to come out. I was at King's Cross by around 9.15am and popped into the Great Northern Hotel for breakfast. I did not need the flexibility in the end but was glad it was there.

Presumably this was split ticketing? Three tickets, splitting at Paddington and London Cross?

LNER only charge Anytime for Heathrow to Newcastle.

It would be much cheaper to use our site.

You could buy your ticket just before you enter the HEX gateline, if you don't want to wait around anywhere.

Screenshots attached (I added a filter to only show HEX/LNER only, to avoid cheaper non-HEX/LNER journeys being shown).

If you want e-tickets, then you can specify to exclude cross London transfers.

if you want to avoid Advance fares entirely, you can take any train that departs Peterborough from 0930 for a saving of £45 compared to the price LNER charge. No doubt LNER will enjoy removing our ability to offer that option, if/when the day comes...


(Images above show £228.80 on the LNER site, compared to much lower prices on our site. Travel date 18th August. Only Hex/LNER journeys shown, to avoid unfair comparisons with cheaper tickets provided by other operators)


(Image shows how you can take any train, providing you call at Peterborough and don't depart from there until 0930, for a saving of over £45, as LNER charge the whole journey at Anytime rates)

Click the images to enlarge them.

Results | RailUK Tickets

TrainSplit is a free service that makes it easy to find the cheapest train tickets for your journey.

tickets.railforums.co.uk

Select Outbound | LNER

www.lner.co.uk

Removing filters, the Heathrow to Newcastle lowest available price on the 1000 departure from Kings Cross is £228.80 from LNER or £105.27 from us (again using 18 August as the example travel date)


No wonder LNER are desperate for people to "book direct"; it makes them a lot more money (as well as pushing some people off the railway, which also benefits LNER, by offering a quieter travel experience to those premium prepared to pay the higher fares; LNER would much prefer a train half full of £200 fares than full of £100 fares. This isn't continental Europe where railways are actually a genuine public service)

Peter Hendy and co don't want any spending for further capacity increases that would be required to cope with future transport demands, so they are trying as many tricks as possible to push up the prices, to deter the less lucrative passengers from travelling by train. LNER are more than happy to assist the DfT in this process of pricing people off!

 

[yorksrob]

Agreed, and as long as you have walkup fares, any train can be crowded, which means higher prices and no 'quality' from less crowding.

But people similarly won't want to pay higher taxes for more subsidy of the railway which would allow infrastructure improvements, more seats and lower prices. Also the UK (England specifically) sees train travel as a privilege not a right, like everything is increasingly becoming. Having affordable transport is not seen as a basic standard of living requirement. Governments have to have a basic ideology around these things that Labour nor the Tories ever did.

But the very existence of walk on fares prevents them from raising fares beyond that level, which is why removal of the off-peak is a fares hike for everyone.

I agree with your latter point about the woeful quality of government on this matter. They complain that the railways are a "rich man's toy" then procede to make it more so at every opportunity.

Plenty of continental countries show that it doesn't have to be that way.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 12 Aug 2025 ==

To be fair I don't believe you have data to prove otherwise either, so our opinions on the matter are of equal value.

But I think on balance @Trainbike46 is more likely to be right. Better to experience crowding some of the time, than not to be able to travel at all.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 12 Aug 2025 ==

(And other alternatives) Yes; they do, sadly. There is too much demand and too little capacity to cater for everyone if the fares were reasonable.

We're told that the vast majority of people on such routes use advanced purchase anyway, so off-peak fares can't make that much of an issue.

Sounds like industry cakeism:

"Ooh there are too many off-peak passengers crowding out the services so we have to get rid of them"

At the same time as:

"Oh, passengers won't notice because they all buy advanced purchase anyway".

It's all a load of old piffle anyway because its simply to hike fares.

 

[Failed Unit]

Sounds like industry cakeism:

"Ooh there are too many off-peak passengers crowding out the services so we have to get rid of them"

At the same time as:

"Oh, passengers won't notice because they all buy advanced purchase anyway".

It's all a load of old piffle anyway because its simply to hike fares.

For me the off-peak is really only used as a lifeline. I am deliberately round up, but I know currently if I need to get to Edinburgh for a family emergency it will cost me £100. I can just turn up to the station and get any train(s) that I want after 0930, even if it means standing. I had exactly that situation last year.

I won't pay any price that LNER demand, I would have looked a other options including:

Any airline.
The sleeper
Going via Avanti.
Multiple splits or just using the nearest boundary station which still has off-peak.

I can't seem them rolling this out at over the entire route. Even now I can see passengers from December wanting to use the 1030 London - Newcastle (as it will be the quickest) but booking the 1003 / 1033 and flexing onto the train they want.

Sadly LNER are going to force this through. I hope that Avanti offer a some competitive fares via Carlisle to fill the gap in the market. I agree most leisure passengers do have a fixed view of thier travel. I know many business travellers that book in advance, selecting 2 trains. So they may book on the 1700KX and 1820KX - Newcastle, just not using the ticket that they don't need. This is much cheaper then the anytime fares and works for LNER as they have lots of no-shows.

 

[yorksrob]

For me the off-peak is really only used as a lifeline. I am deliberately round up, but I know currently if I need to get to Edinburgh for a family emergency it will cost me £100. I can just turn up to the station and get any train(s) that I want after 0930, even if it means standing. I had exactly that situation last year.

Same for me, and I suspect most passengers. It's a lifeline but it's useful to have.

 

[Bletchleyite]

For me the off-peak is really only used as a lifeline. I am deliberately round up, but I know currently if I need to get to Edinburgh for a family emergency it will cost me £100. I can just turn up to the station and get any train(s) that I want after 0930, even if it means standing. I had exactly that situation last year.

Family emergencies are such a rare event that cost really shouldn't be a worry. Save a small amount a week into a bank account for them as an effective insurance policy; build up £500 or so and you can just get to your family quickly when it is most needed by the fastest, not cheapest, mode of transport.

There are plenty of arguments against all this but this isn't really one of them given the very small number of times in a lifetime they can occur.

That said, US airlines often have special bereavement fares for this eventuality.

 

[styles]

However, if that was LNER's aim, they would have offered splitting on their own website, but they don't. The fact is, Trainsplit and even Trainline are objectively just better retailers for journeys involving LNER now, as you can see by the Knebworth example above.

LNER did briefly offer split 'tickets' through their booking engine.

It actually was quite good in that it gave you a through ticket but for the price of what would be split tickets. That is why they could only do it for LNER legs though. The downside was it only split advance fares and only for LNER, so it often wasn't cheaper than using an actual split ticket retailer.

It was called LNER Smart Save. Brought in seemingly around 2021 with limited publicity, then silently dropped some time in the past year (perhaps it would screw up their 'simpler fares' trial somehow?)

 

[Bletchleyite]

It was called LNER Smart Save. Brought in seemingly around 2021 with limited publicity, then silently dropped some time in the past year (perhaps it would screw up their 'simpler fares' trial somehow?)

It certainly would screw up the trial - that will be the reason for its quiet demise.

 

[Haywain]

LNER did briefly offer split 'tickets' through their booking engine.

It was only ever offered on the LNER app.

 

[Failed Unit]

Family emergencies are such a rare event that cost really shouldn't be a worry. Save a small amount a week into a bank account for them as an effective insurance policy; build up £500 or so and you can just get to your family quickly when it is most needed by the fastest, not cheapest, mode of transport.

There are plenty of arguments against all this but this isn't really one of them given the very small number of times in a lifetime they can occur.

That said, US airlines often have special bereavement fares for this eventuality.

I agree they are rare, but it did offer protection which LNER are seeking to remove. The other ticket the use of showing trains as "sold out" doesn't work for them as people can just turn up at the station and purchase a ticket for a "sold out" train.

LNER will succeed in getting what they want, they will state that this is what their customer want. The won't publish the data behind it, so we can't challenge it.

Fortunately we have Lumo.

What is interesting to me however is the DfT also have their fingers in this pie. If they instruct all IC operators to follow suit, it makes the open access operators look more extractive. Lumo's business case was to attact airline passengers onto rail. Now their business case is to attract airline passengers to rail and also to retain the passengers that state operated LNER don't want.

It may be off topic, however on Inter-city operators they want everyone using advance purchase tickets. On regional routes where services are infrequent (so you need to pick your train) - they don't offer advance purchase tickets. Maybe one for a different thread but the DfT seems to have very conflicting policies.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It may be off topic, however on Inter-city operators they want everyone using advance purchase tickets. On regional routes where services are infrequent (so you need to pick your train) - they don't offer advance purchase tickets. Maybe one for a different thread but the DfT seems to have very conflicting policies.

Transport for Wales offer Advances on basically everything. One of the few places I use them is the Conwy Valley, as with such an infrequent service there is rarely more than one train applicable to any journey. It's surprising if Scotland doesn't offer them on their long rural routes with the same situation, though I suppose the issue is that there's no real scope to price people around different trains on these.

 

[signed]

The won't publish the data behind it, so we can't challenge it.

A major part of the data is FOIA-able, but how much can we get without hitting the commercial exception I don't know.

 

[A S Leib]

It's surprising if Scotland doesn't offer them on their long rural routes with the same situation

I know that Stranraer to Glasgow advance fares are available, and I've just found some for Inverness to Thurso (£11.05 with a railcard against £18.60 for an anytime day single). I haven't been able to find any for Oban for when the days are long enough to do the journey and back in a day.

 

[OLJR]

Presumably this was split ticketing? Three tickets, splitting at Paddington and London Cross?

Yes absolutely. I just bought the HEX ticket in the app, used my Oyster to cross London and had my Advance 70 up from King's Cross.

With my Disabled Person's Railcard it was:

HEX 1ST: £21.30
TfL: £1.85 (Saturday)
LNER 1ST: £107.75 (eight days Advance Purchase)
Gross Total: £130.90

Less 10% Amex cashback: (£10.77)
Net: £120.13

 

[Hadders]

For me the off-peak is really only used as a lifeline. I am deliberately round up, but I know currently if I need to get to Edinburgh for a family emergency it will cost me £100. I can just turn up to the station and get any train(s) that I want after 0930, even if it means standing. I had exactly that situation last year.

I won't pay any price that LNER demand, I would have looked a other options including:

Any airline.
The sleeper
Going via Avanti.
Multiple splits or just using the nearest boundary station which still has off-peak.

I can't seem them rolling this out at over the entire route. Even now I can see passengers from December wanting to use the 1030 London - Newcastle (as it will be the quickest) but booking the 1003 / 1033 and flexing onto the train they want.

Sadly LNER are going to force this through. I hope that Avanti offer a some competitive fares via Carlisle to fill the gap in the market. I agree most leisure passengers do have a fixed view of thier travel. I know many business travellers that book in advance, selecting 2 trains. So they may book on the 1700KX and 1820KX - Newcastle, just not using the ticket that they don't need. This is much cheaper then the anytime fares and works for LNER as they have lots of no-shows.

My suspicion is that this sort of LNER fares structure will end up being 'the' fares structure across the whole network.

 

[Failed Unit]

My suspicion is that this sort of LNER fares structure will end up being 'the' fares structure across the whole network.

The have a lot of routes they need to offer Advance fares. I am not aware of any GTR advanced fares from Welwyn Garden City. Although I am aware of lots of examples where I have needed to split fares because I can't get an LNER Advance from Welwyn Garden City. Often a cheap day return to the advanced boundary.

 

[Bletchleyite]

My suspicion is that this sort of LNER fares structure will end up being 'the' fares structure across the whole network.

I think there will likely be a split between regional and IC, though how that affects local journeys where the IC operator is the main or only one (e.g. Wigan-Warrington) remains to be seen. Regional and London commuter are more likely to be contactless payment zones like Oval, which requires a walk up style fare structure.

I do think that the majority of journeys on LNER, Avanti, EMR 810 operated services and possibly Liverpool-Norwich, the faster TPE services*, XC Voyager services, GWR 80x services and the likes will end up with this fare structure or something resembling it**, yes. I'm no particular fan but increasing numbers of people use Advances anyway on this sort of route and the main complaint is inevitably overcrowding which, for all its other faults, this scheme does largely prevent (bar when there's a cancellation), partly by making unreserved travel unaffordable, and partly by pricing people off busy trains (e.g. if a 5 car diagram is needed in the peak).

* TPE is a bit odd as some of what it operates is "proper" IC, e.g. Liverpool-Newcastle fasts, and some of what it operates is regional express no different from Northern but with posh rolling stock, e.g. Cleethorpes.
** 70 minutes may not be the ideal level of flex in some less frequent cases as it wouldn't offer another useful itinerary before or after, so I can see that number differing sometimes rather than always being that.

 

[Hadders]

The have a lot of routes they need to offer Advance fares. I am not aware of any GTR advanced fares from Welwyn Garden City. Although I am aware of lots of examples where I have needed to split fares because I can't get an LNER Advance from Welwyn Garden City. Often a cheap day return to the advanced boundary.

To expand I think the LNER structure will be seen across the 'inter-city' routes with local journeys being PAYG.

Taking WGC as an example you can already use PAYG towards London, but if you're going to Edinburgh then you'd need an Advance/70-Minute Flex or Anytime.

 

[GilfachFargoed]

They may claim the data shows this, but it's hard to say how it possibly could.

Perhaps it's escaped their attention what with all the hoards of people banging down their door telling them they're confused by the existence of loophole fares (that they presumably don't know about)?


Yep. It's like First Class; you have to set the prices high enough to keep out the riff raff, otherwise you won't provide the kind of environment that the very rich want to travel in. Standard class is becoming similar, albeit slightly less so. The riff raff can get the FlixBus or just stay at home, for all Mr Horne cares.

And yet I can get a single to Leeds for just over £50 in an hour's time - back in the day there were no Advance / GNER Bargain / APEX / SuperAdvance call it what you want on the day. Now the railway has moved into the 21st century and offers yield managed fares on the day, just like it's competitors and other service industries such as hotels.

 

[yorkie]

LNER did briefly offer split 'tickets' through their booking engine.

It actually was quite good in that it gave you a through ticket but for the price of what would be split tickets. That is why they could only do it for LNER legs though. The downside was it only split advance fares and only for LNER, so it often wasn't cheaper than using an actual split ticket retailer.

True; their supplier wasn't able to implement a system that was as good at splitting as the one behind the forum's site.

It was called LNER Smart Save. Brought in seemingly around 2021 with limited publicity, then silently dropped some time in the past year (perhaps it would screw up their 'simpler fares' trial somehow?)

Absolutely, it would have messed up the trial in a huge way.

Indeed, I recall someone here leaking a memo sent to ticket office staff reminding them not to split tickets (it may be on this thread somewhere) as this "distorts the market".

And yet I can get a single to Leeds for just over £50 in an hour's time - back in the day there were no Advance / GNER Bargain / APEX / SuperAdvance call it what you want on the day. Now the railway has moved into the 21st century and offers yield managed fares on the day, just like it's competitors and other service industries such as hotels.

View attachment 186170

Or £46.58 using our site.

But such fares aren't brilliant value, as it's still over £90 return as a minimum, on trains that will be lightly loaded.


But from beyond London can be problematic, LNER are asking for £191.40 from Heathrow. Our site can get this down to £67.

The have a lot of routes they need to offer Advance fares. I am not aware of any GTR advanced fares from Welwyn Garden City. Although I am aware of lots of examples where I have needed to split fares because I can't get an LNER Advance from Welwyn Garden City. Often a cheap day return to the advanced boundary.

There is no need for anyone to manually calculate this; the forum site does so automatically.

Its not always best to split at the obvious point; a lot of work has gone into finding optimal splits.

LNER are very keen for people to avoid doing this, of course. They would rather people either pay the higher price or not travel.

 

[Bletchleyite]

And yet I can get a single to Leeds for just over £50 in an hour's time - back in the day there were no Advance / GNER Bargain / APEX / SuperAdvance call it what you want on the day. Now the railway has moved into the 21st century and offers yield managed fares on the day, just like it's competitors and other service industries such as hotels.

If you go and look at Edinburgh you'll see that once that Super Off Peak Single has gone away the yield managed single jumps up in price somewhat, particularly on the day. It's this price increase that is the main objection, really.

 

[Tazi Hupefi]

At the end of the day, there's 37 pages on here so far of (predominantly rail enthusiasts or fringe demographics)
mostly complaining about these fares.

LNER services are still extremely busy and popular. Farebox revenue/growth is doing great. There is reasonably healthy competition available with airlines, coaches and other train operators.

Undoubtedly, the market as a whole can afford to pay more, and will pay more at certain times of the day - it would be reckless to leave that money off the table. However, that is balanced by the fact that better yield management strategies also mean cheaper tickets at less desirable times - desirable meaning both a combination of desirable to customers and desirable to the railway.

As David Horne has said previously, although perhaps not on this forum, and I'm somewhat paraphrasing, but "normal" customers have accepted these changes and, on the whole, it's been positively received. It hasn't been perfect, and tweaks are suggested and made.

You can all continue to moan and groan as much as you like - but this is the new world. Perhaps stop shouting at a brick wall and focus on how to make the most of these fares - there will always be loopholes and anomalies which you guys will continue to find and exploit.

I expect the next evolution in the fullness of time to be personalised pricing - especially with the continued advances in AI and personal profiling/ fingerprinting.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I expect the next evolution in the fullness of time to be personalised pricing - especially with the continued advances in AI and personal profiling/ fingerprinting.

I would personally like to see legislation banning that, aside from targeted special offers by way of optional loyalty schemes and the likes. It has the potential to be extremely unfair, as indeed is the present way supermarkets are doing this with loyalty cards which I would also like to see banned due to it being highly regressive in nature (basically it continues the idea that "being poor is expensive"). Fortunately the industry's present systems can't do it (so people who allege that it happens with rail* are misinterpreting what they see), but who knows what might come next?

* It does happen with air in some cases and to some extent. VPNs are quite handy for getting prices down!

 

[yorkie]

If you go and look at Edinburgh you'll see that once that Super Off Peak Single has gone away the yield managed single jumps up in price somewhat, particularly on the day. It's this price increase that is the main objection, really.

LNER charge £204.80 on the 1630 and 1730. For the time being, we can save just under £50 by splitting at intermediate stops:

(Image shows the LNER site charging £204.80 on all direct London to Edinburgh trains between 1600 - 1700, while our site offers £155.76 on the 1630 & 1730 departures)

However LNER are keen to increase the cost of intermediate journeys, which could preclude people finding ways to travel affordably in future.

£400 return for this journey is ridiculous.

At the end of the day, there's 37 pages on here so far of (predominantly rail enthusiasts or fringe demographics)
mostly complaining about these fares.]

I wouldn't be so harsh on yourself

LNER services are still extremely busy and popular. Farebox revenue/growth is doing great.

At busy times, yes, there is far more potential demand for travel than the capacity provides, hence people are being deterred from travelling.

There is reasonably healthy competition available with airlines, coaches and other train operators.

There is zero competition for Yorkshire to London journeys.

Undoubtedly, the market as a whole can afford to pay more, and will pay more at certain times of the day

It's a bit more complicated than that, but yes LNER only want the customers who are prepared to pay those premium fares.

it would be reckless to leave that money off the table

Most of continental Europe behaves recklessly then!

As David Horne has said previously, although perhaps not on this forum, and I'm somewhat paraphrasing, but "normal" customers have accepted these changes and, on the whole, it's been positively received. It hasn't been perfect, and tweaks are suggested and made.

But what about the ones who aren't travelling? Yes people who booked far in advance and got their train aren't complaining. But those who are charged for new tickets when on the wrong train or have abandoned rail aren't the ones being asked for their opinions.

You can all continue to moan and groan as much as you like - but this is the new world.

In England & Wales maybe, if the DfT gets their way. But not everywhere.

Perhaps stop shouting at a brick wall and focus on how to make the most of these fares - there will always be loopholes and anomalies which you guys will continue to find and exploit.

I agree that LNER will find it impossible to prevent all loopholes/anomalies.

I expect the next evolution in the fullness of time to be personalised pricing - especially with the continued advances in AI and personal profiling/ fingerprinting.

I am sure DfT/LNER would want that, but given you can buy a ticket for anyone, and given the existence of third party retailers, it would be easy to bypass that.

I suspect if they could get away with it, they'd force all sales to be with LNER direct, and demand you have an account with them, and only the named passenger could travel. But I don't think this would be politically acceptable, so not worth debating further in my opinion.

 

[Bletchleyite]

there will always be loopholes and anomalies which you guys will continue to find and exploit

One advantage of loopholes and similar in Advance type fares is that if sold they are unquestionably valid - there's none of the "but that looks too cheap" type thing you might get from some staff if they happen to know the correct walk up price.

I'd certainly say this fare structure is an utter gift to Trainline, though - anyone saying "you'll get it cheaper on a TOC site" is invariably wrong when it comes to LNER, in almost every case some sort of split comes up cheaper.